Your Questions about Georgian Grammar

Moderator: Multiturquoise

HoneyBuzzard
Posts: 472
Joined: 2009-04-18, 11:08

Re: Your Questions about Georgian Grammar

Postby HoneyBuzzard » 2017-05-27, 20:56

Kavkaz wrote:A few things:

(1) The derivative declension in the dative is being used with ნახვა to mean "during, while" (Aronson 8.6) right?
(2) I have the feeling I didn't understand the last section, "...მაგრამ მაინც - ე.წ. ”პერპორმანსი” შედგა" properly.
(3) I didn't know what the function of თუ was. Would a better translation be something like, "Let's be honest, few people will cast their attention to the bad roads if they're looking at these photos and video"?


I would probably say 'Earlier too we were writing about the very bad roads which are in regions of Russia. Stylist Ana Mosḳvičeva decided to express a protest a little differently. These photos and video, which you see below, are taken in Saratov. To tell the truth, whether any few [people], while seeing the photos and video, will pay attention to the bad roads [or not], (but) still - a so-called "performance" took place/she put up a so-called "performance".' I'm not entirely sure though.

The ნახვისას is, as you say, §8.6. This is a very common usage, at least in writing.

Kavkaz wrote:მისივე განცხადებით, ის რომ აუდიტის სამსახურის ხელმძღვანელობის საკითხზე ივანიშვილის შეთავაზებას დათანხმებოდა, ოთარ ფარცხალაძე მსგავს ქმედებას ვერ ჩაიდენდა.

It seems to me that დათანხმებოდა is in the conditional.


It's actually the relative pluperfect of და=ეთანხმდება. It's easy to mix up with the conditional (and historically it's the same ending according to A Morphosyntactic Analysis), but the missing -დ- is a giveaway.

I'm not sure what's going on with Dunwoody Press. I'm glad to see they have an Amazon shop, which I wasn't aware of, but it's all the same stuff they had back when they ran a separate site. It says in the foreword to A Morphosyntactic Analysis that it's the first in a series of three books on the Georgian verb, but the other two never showed up. I wonder if they're just selling off stock and have stopped doing any actual publishing.

I'm tempted to pick up some of this stuff. Once it goes, we might never see it again.

Kavkaz
Posts: 143
Joined: 2012-06-14, 0:29
Gender: male
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Your Questions about Georgian Grammar

Postby Kavkaz » 2017-07-05, 6:23

Thanks for the last answer.

Long time no post, and I return with a very simple question. Why am I seeing directional adjectives in (what I assume is) the genitive not ending with -ი? For example, in დიდი ბრიტანეთისა და ჩრდილოეთ ირლანდიის გაერთიანებული სამეფო why is it ჩრდილოეთ and not ჩრდილოეთი? Another example: სამხრეთ სუდანის რესპუბლიკა. I thought it was only in the dative and adverbial cases that adjectives with consonantal stems didn't add the -ი (well, the ergative too)?
Native: [flag=]en-us[/flag]
Intermediate: [flag=]ru[/flag]
Beginner: [flag=]ka[/flag]
Interested: [flag=]ab[/flag][flag=]ce[/flag][flag=]inh[/flag][flag=]kbd[/flag][flag=]av[/flag]

HoneyBuzzard
Posts: 472
Joined: 2009-04-18, 11:08

Re: Your Questions about Georgian Grammar

Postby HoneyBuzzard » 2017-07-05, 14:21

There are several competing patterns of adjective-noun agreement in Modern Georgian. A Continuing Course lists, as the most common patterns, full agreement, agreement only in the nominative and vocative, agreement only in the nominative, ergative and vocative and also says:

In a few fixed expressions the first element (usually indicating a cardinal point) is not declined; examples include: დასავლეთ საქართველო 'West Georgia,' სამხრეთ ოსეთი "South Ossetia.'


Counterexamples like ჩრდილოეთი ირლანდია presumably show confusion whether the pattern from the fixed expressions also apply to foreign place names.

Kavkaz
Posts: 143
Joined: 2012-06-14, 0:29
Gender: male
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Your Questions about Georgian Grammar

Postby Kavkaz » 2017-07-12, 0:49

Thanks for clearing that up, appreciate it.

I have a few questions now about conjugation. In 8.1.6 of the Reading Grammar, Aronson gives the present conjugation of ტირის as follows: (ვ)იტირი(თ), ტირის, ტირიან. That ი- in (ვ)იტირი(თ) is a typo, right? A quick google search yields far more results for ვტირი than ვიტირი.

Secondly, Aronson never conjugates იცის, instead saying in the present it conjugates like ტირის. Assuming (ვ)იტირი(თ) is wrong, would that make the conjugation: Present (ვ)იცი(თ), იცის, იციან; Imperfect (ვ)იცოდი(თ), იცოდა, იცოდნენ; Conjunctive Pres. (ვ)იცოდე(თ), იცოდეს, იცოდნენ; Future მეცოდინება/გვეცოდინება, გეცოდინება(თ), ეცოდინება etc. Perfect მცოდნია/გვცოდნია, გცოდნია(თ), სცოდნია, etc.
Native: [flag=]en-us[/flag]
Intermediate: [flag=]ru[/flag]
Beginner: [flag=]ka[/flag]
Interested: [flag=]ab[/flag][flag=]ce[/flag][flag=]inh[/flag][flag=]kbd[/flag][flag=]av[/flag]

HoneyBuzzard
Posts: 472
Joined: 2009-04-18, 11:08

Re: Your Questions about Georgian Grammar

Postby HoneyBuzzard » 2017-07-12, 14:19

That's certainly strange. This is page 205, right? My book says the expected (ვ)ტირი(თ). This is the corrected third edition that I have.

Your paradigm for იცის is correct (+ pluperfect მცოდნოდა).

Kavkaz
Posts: 143
Joined: 2012-06-14, 0:29
Gender: male
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Your Questions about Georgian Grammar

Postby Kavkaz » 2017-08-01, 23:25

Yeah, it would be page 205 in the Third Edition, which I have in print, but at the time I wrote the question it was more convenient for me to reference an online version: http://kreddkrikk.pcriot.com/georgian-r ... tion-8.1.6

I should have checked my physical copy of the book, sorry for the useless question.

Could you tell me if my translation of the following sentences capture the correct meanings? They were a bit complex for me.

Original: პოროშენკომ საქართველოს ყოფილ პრეზიდენტს მოქალაქეობა 2015 წლის 29 მაისს, ოდესის გუბერნატორის პოსტზე მიხეილ სააკაშვილის დანიშვნამდე ერთი დღით ადრე მიანიჭა.
Translation: Poroshenko bestowed citizenship on Georgia's former president on May 29th 2015, one day before the appointment of Mikheil Saakashvili to the post of governor of Odessa.


Original: უმაღლესი რადას წევრმა და უკრაინის შინაგან საქმეთა მინისტრის მრჩეველმა, ანტონ გერაშენკომ განაცხადა, რომ მიხეილ სააკაშვილს, რომელიც საქართველოს მიერ რამდენიმე დანაშაულისათვის იძებნება, მოქალაქეობა „მოქალაქეობის შესახებ“ უკრაინის კანონის მე-19 და 21-ე მუხლების საფუძველზე შეუწყდა.
Translation: Member of the Verkhovna Rada and adviser to the Ukrainian Minister of Internal Affairs, Anton Gerashenko, announced that Mikheil Saakashvili, who is sought by Georgia for several crimes, had his citizenship cut short on the basis of Articles 19 and 21 of Ukraine's "citizenship" law.

Original: გერაშენკოს თანახმად, „საქართველოს მთავარმა პროკურატურამ ახალხან მიაწოდა უკრაინულ მხარეს რამდენიმე ფაქტი, რომელიც მიხეილ სააკაშვილისთვის მოქალაქეობის მინიჭების საკითხის გადაწყვეტისას ცნობილი არ იყო და რომელიც მიხეილ სააკაშვილმა განზრახ დამალა“.
Translation: According to Gerashenko, "Georgia head procurator's office recently passed along several facts to the Ukrainian side, which were not known when making a decision in the matter of bestowing citizenship to Mikheil Saakashvili and which Mikheil Saakashvili purposely hid."

In the last sentence, I found the following particularly difficult to unpack: "...რომელიც მიხეილ სააკაშვილისთვის მოქალაქეობის მინიჭების საკითხის გადაწყვეტისას ცნობილი არ იყო..."

I think the "was/were not known" part was easy enough, and that რომელიც refers to ფაქტ(ებ)ი, but everything in between threw me for a bit of a loop. I ended up adding the whole "when making" part, which isn't strictly in the Georgian sentence. I don't know if that's just one of those things that is necessary when dealing with two very different languages or if I completely misunderstood the author's words.
Native: [flag=]en-us[/flag]
Intermediate: [flag=]ru[/flag]
Beginner: [flag=]ka[/flag]
Interested: [flag=]ab[/flag][flag=]ce[/flag][flag=]inh[/flag][flag=]kbd[/flag][flag=]av[/flag]

HoneyBuzzard
Posts: 472
Joined: 2009-04-18, 11:08

Re: Your Questions about Georgian Grammar

Postby HoneyBuzzard » 2017-08-02, 8:24

It's interesting to know that was an error in the original printing. I thought they just added extra vocabulary for the reading sections.

Kavkaz wrote:...რომელიც მიხეილ სააკაშვილისთვის მოქალაქეობის მინიჭების საკითხის გადაწყვეტისას ცნობილი არ იყო...


It's Aronson's "derivative declension" from §8.6, the part on top of p. 214. Here it's the verbal noun გადაწყვეტა "deciding" with dative on top of genitive in the meaning of "during," lit. "which was not known during the deciding of the issue of the granting of citizenship for Mikheil Saakashvili."

The rest looks good. (Though I had to look up what a "rada" was :) )

Kavkaz
Posts: 143
Joined: 2012-06-14, 0:29
Gender: male
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Your Questions about Georgian Grammar

Postby Kavkaz » 2017-08-03, 4:10

Ah right, I was wondering if it had to do with the derivative declension.

I have a question about the following sentence, particularly the bolded section: საქართველოს ყოფილმა პრეზიდენტმა განაცხადა, რომ პოროშენკომ 24 ივლისს უკრაინის მოქალაქეობის კომიტეტში ახალი წევრები წარადგინა, იმ მიზნით „რომ ჰყოლოდა მთლიანად მორჩილი კომისია, რომელიც პრეზიდენტის ნებისმიერ სურვილს დათანხმებოდა“.

Firstly, რომ is being used in the sense of "in order to," correct? My reasoning being that Aronson mentions რომ + the optative as meaning "in order to," and the pluperfect (which is what ჰყოლოდა is, I believe) is used as a past tense of the optative.

Secondly, since it is between quotation marks I assume it is a direct quote. In Georgian they don't touch either person of tense when quoting directly, right? Meaning that Saakashvili himself would have used the pluperfect and conditional conjugations, not, say, the optative and conditional.

Thirdly, why use the past tense instead of present there? Is it necessary in Georgian or would the optative work just as well in this case? Because I think a more natural translation into English would be, "...in order to 'have a completely obedient commission, which would consent to the President's arbitrary wish.'" As opposed to "in order to 'have had [...]'." I'm making the assumption that using the pluperfect is really driving home the sense that he's talking about something that happened in the past.

Thanks and sorry for the long question!
Native: [flag=]en-us[/flag]
Intermediate: [flag=]ru[/flag]
Beginner: [flag=]ka[/flag]
Interested: [flag=]ab[/flag][flag=]ce[/flag][flag=]inh[/flag][flag=]kbd[/flag][flag=]av[/flag]

HoneyBuzzard
Posts: 472
Joined: 2009-04-18, 11:08

Re: Your Questions about Georgian Grammar

Postby HoneyBuzzard » 2017-08-04, 11:30

Kavkaz wrote:იმ მიზნით „რომ ჰყოლოდა მთლიანად მორჩილი კომისია, რომელიც პრეზიდენტის ნებისმიერ სურვილს დათანხმებოდა“.


რომ here refers to იმ. An entire clause can be used as a noun with რომ when it's a core relation (like "ვიცი, რომ"), but for other relations, such as with postpositions, a demonstrative is used to represent it in the parent clause (e.g., იმის იმედი, რომ "the hope that ..."). The sense of the mood in the subordinate clause here is a general subjunctive rather than any special construction with რომ, like English "with the aim that he [should] have ..."

The optative is mechanically pushed back to the pluperfect when the parent clause is in past time (including things like the imperfect). Only the last part is in quotes, so presumably whatever Saakashvili actually said also had a past time verb before the quoted part. I have seen some exceptions to this tense-push, i.e., with the optative regardless of the time of the parent clause, but it's rare, and I'm not sure what causes it.

დათანხმებოდა is pluperfect (the conditional would be დათანხმდებოდა). I could be missing context, but I would read this with emphasis on the მთლიანად, i.e., "with the aim to have the commission, which had [already] agreed with the president's every wish, completely obedient."

Kavkaz
Posts: 143
Joined: 2012-06-14, 0:29
Gender: male
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Your Questions about Georgian Grammar

Postby Kavkaz » 2017-08-08, 16:35

Thanks. That pluperfect was tricky.

Can you help me out with the bolded section?

ვიცი, რომ კიდევ უფრო კარგი სოფლებიც არის, მაგრამ ვფიქრობ, რომ ჩემს სოფელზე უკეთესი არც ერთი არაა.

Are they saying "...that there are better villages yet [in existence]," or "there exist more villages which are good"? The second half, I think, says "...but I think that there's not a single village that is better than ours," so I'm guessing they didn't use "უფრო კარგი" to mean better. There would be a logic problem if they said "there are better villages but I don't think there are any better."

This is also the second time I've been confused over უფრო and how to make a comparative adjective versus how to say more of an object. Could you explain that to me? For example, "the smarter men" versus "more smart men (=more men who are smart)." Thanks.
Native: [flag=]en-us[/flag]
Intermediate: [flag=]ru[/flag]
Beginner: [flag=]ka[/flag]
Interested: [flag=]ab[/flag][flag=]ce[/flag][flag=]inh[/flag][flag=]kbd[/flag][flag=]av[/flag]

HoneyBuzzard
Posts: 472
Joined: 2009-04-18, 11:08

Re: Your Questions about Georgian Grammar

Postby HoneyBuzzard » 2017-08-09, 14:56

Kavkaz wrote:ვიცი, რომ კიდევ უფრო კარგი სოფლებიც არის, მაგრამ ვფიქრობ, რომ ჩემს სოფელზე უკეთესი არც ერთი არაა.


I've never seen უფრო be used to refer to quantity, only degree. My guess is this sentence contrasts იცის with ფიქრობს, i.e., "I am aware that there are (objectively) better villages too, but I am of the opinion that not one is better than my village." კიდევ უფრო is its own (fixed) phrase "even more." None of my resources say anything about how კიდევ interacts with forms like უ- -ეს, but კიდევ უკეთესი seems to be "still (now) better/best" rather than "even better" like in "კიდევ უფრო კარგი."

"More" in quantity is მეტი, e.g. (from a Youtube video), თუ არ დავიწყეთ პრევენციული საქმიანობა, გვექნება უფრო მეტი და უფრო ძლიერი კატასტროფები. "If we do not begin preventative work, we will have more (additional) and more severe disasters." So უფრო ჭკვიანი კაცები and (უფრო) მეტი და უფრო ჭკვიანი კაცები.

კიდევ უფრო and (უფრო) მეტად also occur with verbs and participles. None of my resources say what the difference is here, but კიდევ უფრო seems simply emphatic, "a lot," but მეტად "more," კიდევ უფრო მაღლდება "it abounds (lit. it becomes high a lot)" and ყველაზე მეტად გავრცელებული "most widespread." The base meaning of უფრო seems to be "highly" rather than "more."

Kavkaz
Posts: 143
Joined: 2012-06-14, 0:29
Gender: male
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Your Questions about Georgian Grammar

Postby Kavkaz » 2017-08-10, 22:08

Gotcha, thanks. Is უფრო მეტი meaning "more (quantity)" interchangeable with just მეტი? I feel like I've seen both used similarly.

I pretty much assumed უფრო was for intensifying adjectives and მეტი was for indicating additional things, but it was just an assumptions based on sentences I'd found online. If I remember correctly, Aronson didn't go over the distinction, instead teaching only უფრო for adjectives, which is odd because it's such a basic and common thing to be used in a language.

1. I have another question about the following sentence. It deals with a theater in Georgia whose actors use only their fingers.

ისინი თითებით ასრულებენ შესრულება ეტიუდებს.

I'm confused by this sentence; is there a typo? Specifically, shouldn't შესრულებ be შესრულების? As far as I can tell, ისინი is the subject in the nominative, ასრულებენ is the 3p.pl. present tense, თითებით is the instrumental plural of თითი, and ეტიუდებს is the dative plural of ეტიუდი.

In addition to the grammatical issue with შესრულება, I'm not sure about its semantic purpose in the sentence, either. "They perform something sketches with their fingers"?

2. One more question: do nouns modified by სხვადასხვა inflect like those modified by numbers and quantity words like ბევრი and რამდენიმე? Meaning they are always singular?

I ask because of the sentence: ბოტანიკურ ბაღს სხვადასხვა შესასვლელი აქვს.

"Different entrances" makes a lot more sense than "a different entrance."
Native: [flag=]en-us[/flag]
Intermediate: [flag=]ru[/flag]
Beginner: [flag=]ka[/flag]
Interested: [flag=]ab[/flag][flag=]ce[/flag][flag=]inh[/flag][flag=]kbd[/flag][flag=]av[/flag]

HoneyBuzzard
Posts: 472
Joined: 2009-04-18, 11:08

Re: Your Questions about Georgian Grammar

Postby HoneyBuzzard » 2017-08-11, 14:38

Kavkaz wrote:Is უფრო მეტი meaning "more (quantity)" interchangeable with just მეტი? I feel like I've seen both used similarly.


Properly it would intensify it, "much more," but you're right, the long version often seems to be used pleonastically. Most things I read are translations from other languages into Georgian, and sometimes the source language has a "more," sometimes a "much more" (or similar). მეტი is logically comparative, but people like being explicit, so I figure they make it overtly comparative by adding the უფრო.

Kavkaz wrote:I pretty much assumed უფრო was for intensifying adjectives and მეტი was for indicating additional things, but it was just an assumptions based on sentences I'd found online. If I remember correctly, Aronson didn't go over the distinction, instead teaching only უფრო for adjectives, which is odd because it's such a basic and common thing to be used in a language.


I think he made the decision because უფრო is the most common way of forming comparatives in Georgian, whereas მეტი is just an adjective, but yeah, there's a ton of stuff like this that never gets covered, different usages with verbs vs. adjectives, etc. I have some massive reference grammars for more well-documented languages, like German and Greek, and they're excellent for sussing out very particular issues like this, but, at least in English, Georgian unfortunately seems to have escaped for now. There's not much to do but write plenty of notes and hope a native speaker shows up.

Kavkaz wrote:1. I have another question about the following sentence. It deals with a theater in Georgia whose actors use only their fingers.

ისინი თითებით ასრულებენ შესრულება ეტიუდებს.

I'm confused by this sentence; is there a typo? Specifically, shouldn't შესრულებ be შესრულების?


I'm confused too. The verbs in =(ა)სრულებს are common, and I've never seen one with two nominatives. I don't like to assume errors in sources, but this could well be a typo for something. Without the შესრულება, I would read it as "they perform studies/sketches with their fingers." Perhaps შესრულებად "as a performance"?

Kavkaz wrote:2. One more question: do nouns modified by სხვადასხვა inflect like those modified by numbers and quantity words like ბევრი and რამდენიმე? Meaning they are always singular?

I ask because of the sentence: ბოტანიკურ ბაღს სხვადასხვა შესასვლელი აქვს.

"Different entrances" makes a lot more sense than "a different entrance."


It's always singular. I have seen one exception though, Acts 19:6 სხვადასხვა ენებზე ალაპარაკდნენ "they began speaking with tongues," and I'm not sure what to make of it. I suspect it's intended to echo the Old Georgian version, იტყოდეს ენათა (which doesn't have the სხვადასხვა).

Kavkaz
Posts: 143
Joined: 2012-06-14, 0:29
Gender: male
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Your Questions about Georgian Grammar

Postby Kavkaz » 2017-08-11, 18:50

OK, the whole სესრულება thing ended up being a non-issue and entirely my fault. You see, that sentence was from a site (geofl.ge) that has a bunch of graded reading material and as such, what they determine to be less common words are glossed. ასრულებენ was one such word. I copy and paste the original text into a document file and then translate it there. I just looked at the original and შესრულება is not in the sentence. However, when you hover over ასრულებენ with your mouse, it shows you the meaning of the word and says its masdar is შესრულება. So when I copied and pasted the sentence without შესრულება, it got inserted because I guess the copy function not only copies what is visibly selected but whatever is "embedded" within the glossed words as well. In this way, it got inserted right after the conjugated form.

Oops.
Native: [flag=]en-us[/flag]
Intermediate: [flag=]ru[/flag]
Beginner: [flag=]ka[/flag]
Interested: [flag=]ab[/flag][flag=]ce[/flag][flag=]inh[/flag][flag=]kbd[/flag][flag=]av[/flag]

HoneyBuzzard
Posts: 472
Joined: 2009-04-18, 11:08

Re: Your Questions about Georgian Grammar

Postby HoneyBuzzard » 2017-08-12, 8:57

Ah, that explains it. :)

Kavkaz
Posts: 143
Joined: 2012-06-14, 0:29
Gender: male
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Your Questions about Georgian Grammar

Postby Kavkaz » 2017-08-14, 23:58

Yep.

Could you help me analyze this sentence? I think I understand its general meaning, but grammatically it's got me scratching my head. It's from the President of Georgia vis a vis the war in Abkhazia; you can find it in full here. The sentence that's tripping me up is as follows:

ძმათა შორის ომმა, რომლის გაჩაღებაში მნიშვნელოვანი როლი საბჭოური იმპერიალიზმით ნასაზრდოებმა, რუსეთის სახელმწიფო პოლიტიკამაც ითამაშა, ასეულობით ათასი ადამიანი აქცია დევნილად საკუთარ სამშობლოში.

My main source of confusion is the case that ომი is in. Why ergative? As far as I know, a noun in the ergative means it's the subject of a verb in the aorist series. The only verb in the aorist series that I see is თამაშობს. But semantically that doesn't make sense to me. It looks like პოლიტიკა is the logical subject of თამაშობს, and როლი the direct object, i.e. "the policy of the Russian state (erg.) played (aor.) a role (nom.)."

In addition to this, I'm wondering about ნასაზრდოები. I believe this is a perfect participle. Is it in the ergative case because it is modifying პოლიტიკა? The whole sentence is demonstrating just how alien Georgian sentence structure is to my English-speaking brain.

I'm also not sure what აქცია means in this sentence or its grammatical role.

My translation so far is: "The fratricidal war, which the politics of the Russian state, originating in Soviet imperialism, played important role in kindling, hundreds of thousands of people as refugees [???] in their own homeland."
Native: [flag=]en-us[/flag]
Intermediate: [flag=]ru[/flag]
Beginner: [flag=]ka[/flag]
Interested: [flag=]ab[/flag][flag=]ce[/flag][flag=]inh[/flag][flag=]kbd[/flag][flag=]av[/flag]

HoneyBuzzard
Posts: 472
Joined: 2009-04-18, 11:08

Re: Your Questions about Georgian Grammar

Postby HoneyBuzzard » 2017-08-15, 12:37

The only thing you're missing is აქცია, the aorist of აქცევს "+nom. turns +dat. into +adv." (or as here in the aorist "+erg. turns +nom. into +adv."), i.e., "war ... turned [them] into refugees."

Kavkaz
Posts: 143
Joined: 2012-06-14, 0:29
Gender: male
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Your Questions about Georgian Grammar

Postby Kavkaz » 2017-08-15, 18:59

Ah! I thought აქცია was a noun; I didn't think it was the aorist of a verb. Now I get it, thanks a lot.
Native: [flag=]en-us[/flag]
Intermediate: [flag=]ru[/flag]
Beginner: [flag=]ka[/flag]
Interested: [flag=]ab[/flag][flag=]ce[/flag][flag=]inh[/flag][flag=]kbd[/flag][flag=]av[/flag]

Kavkaz
Posts: 143
Joined: 2012-06-14, 0:29
Gender: male
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Your Questions about Georgian Grammar

Postby Kavkaz » 2017-08-15, 22:09

I thought I understood how adjectives work, but now I'm not so sure. I saw two sentences that appear to have adjectives inflected in conflicting ways. I might know why, but I'm not completely sure. I'll write them below followed by my thoughts on why I think they are inflected the way they are. I'd appreciate it if you could tell me if I'm right or not.

The first from a speech by President Margvelashvili (the bolded words make up the relevant section):

ღრმად მწამს, რომ დადგება დღე, როცა ჩვენ აფხაზებსა და ოსებთან ერთად შევუდგებით ძლიერი, განვითარებული, დემოკრატიული და მშვიდობიანი სახელმწიფოს შენებას, სადაც ყველა მოქალაქის უსაფრთხოება და ეკონომიკური კეთილდღეობა, პოლიტიკურ უფლებათა დაცულობა, ეთნიკური, რელიგიური და კულტურული თვითმყოფადობის შენარჩუნება და გაღრმავება ყველა ჩვენგანის საერთო საქმე, წინსვლის წინაპირობა იქნება

And the second from a short story by V. Kikilashvili:

– რა ატამი, კაცო? რომელი ატამი?! – უთხრა აპალონამ და ატმის ფოთლებში შემოსულ მზის სხივებს შეხედა.

If I remember correctly, nouns in the dative are modified by consonantal adjectives and participles by dropping the ending -ი, whereas adjectives/participles modifying nouns in the genitive retain that ending.

In the first, as far as I understand it, შენება is in the dative because it is the indirect object of the verb შეუდგება. However, the adjectives preceding it -- ძლიერი, განვითარებული, დემოკრატიული and მშვიდობიანი -- precede the noun სახელმწიფო, which is in the genitive, and have retained their -ი endings. In the second sentence, სხივები are in dative because they're the indirect objects of შეხედავს, and the participle შემოსულ-∅ precedes მზე, a noun in the genitive. I think the reason why the adjectives in the first sentence have the -ი ending and the participle has no ending in the second sentence is because in the first they are modifying the genitive noun that in turn modifies the dative noun, whereas in the second the participle is modifying the dative noun.

They're "gathered sun's-rays," whereas the first sentence has "powerful-developed-democratic-peaceful state's creation." Am I understanding this right? Basically, when the adjectives are actually describing the noun in the genitive that precedes the dative noun, they keep the -ი; when the adjectives are describing the entire phrase (in this case მზის სხივები), they do in fact lose the -ი ending as expected.

Long explanation for a simple subject, sorry.

P.S. Sorry, one more thing. შეხედავს is a first conjugation verb in the aorist, meaning the subject is in the ergative/narrative case, and the direct object is in the nominative, but the logical direct object in this sentence, sunbeams, are in the dative. So what is the direct object in this sentence? Is it nothing? It seems like შეხედავს has direct object markers, like შემხედა, შეგხედა, etc. So a sentence like ის შემხედა would mean "He looked at/noticed me," yes? And ივანემ არჩილს შეხედა would mean "Ivane looked at/noticed Archil." Does that mean third person direct objects of verbs that take direct object markers mark said objects as indirect ones, by putting them in the dative in all series? Because like I said, I as far as I know a direct object of a first conj. verb is in the nominative for the aorist series, but in the sentence above "sunbeams" is in the dative while the verb is in the aorist. That implies indirect object. I don't think Aronson went into much detail about direct object markers, because this has me stumped.
Native: [flag=]en-us[/flag]
Intermediate: [flag=]ru[/flag]
Beginner: [flag=]ka[/flag]
Interested: [flag=]ab[/flag][flag=]ce[/flag][flag=]inh[/flag][flag=]kbd[/flag][flag=]av[/flag]

HoneyBuzzard
Posts: 472
Joined: 2009-04-18, 11:08

Re: Your Questions about Georgian Grammar

Postby HoneyBuzzard » 2017-08-21, 18:05

Sorry for the late reply, I was on vacation. :)

Kavkaz wrote:They're "gathered sun's-rays," whereas the first sentence has "powerful-developed-democratic-peaceful state's creation." Am I understanding this right?


Right, the participle has been moved outside since it has the -ში phrase attached to it. It's essentially the same as English "the sun's gathered rays" but "the sun's rays gathered in the leaves," where the participle is shuffled outside when it has an adverbial phrase. The case markers clear it up in Georgian.

Kavkaz wrote:So what is the direct object in this sentence? Is it nothing?


There is no direct object, this verb only ever has a subject and an indirect object (with ჰ-series markers, though the third person ჰ gets dropped in modern Georgian), present "+nom. looks at +dat." aorist "+erg. looks at +dat." The მ in something like შემხედავს is also an indirect object marker, and this continues into the perfect, e.g., ამ ჩანაწერებისთვის მე არ შემიხედავს "I have not looked at these records." It's not a general rule, just another weird type of verb that doesn't quite fit into the traditional four classes.


Return to “Georgian (ქართული)”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest