Your Questions about Georgian Grammar

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Kavkaz
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Re: Your Questions about Georgian Grammar

Postby Kavkaz » 2017-05-06, 23:51

This sentence plays on the fact that the unconjugated უნდა (must, have to, should) is identical in form to the 3rd person singular უნდა (s/he wants).

ჩემს სტუდენტს არ უნდა მათემატიკა ისწავლოს, მაგრამ მან ის უნდა ისწავლოს!

I just want to make sure I understand how both function properly, so if we swapped the 3rd person singular for the first person singular, would the sentence change to this?

(მე) არ მინდა მათემატიკა ვისწავლო, მაგრამ (მე) ის უნდა ვისწავლო!
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Re: Your Questions about Georgian Grammar

Postby HoneyBuzzard » 2017-05-07, 23:33

Kavkaz wrote:What about this sentence: მოსკოვში და ლენინგრადში ზამთარში ცივა.

What type of verb is ცივა? The glossary has two verbs listed, ცივ-ა and მ-ცივ-ა. I know the latter is a IV conj. verb, but what about the former? Also, the third person "he is cold" would be სცივა, correct?


Aronson talks about this group of verbs again in §15.1.3.1. They're traditionally considered third conjugation because they take imperfects in -იოდა (from -ივოდა). The third person of მცივა is, as you say, სცივა.

Kavkaz wrote:This sentence plays on the fact that the unconjugated უნდა (must, have to, should) is identical in form to the 3rd person singular უნდა (s/he wants).

ჩემს სტუდენტს არ უნდა მათემატიკა ისწავლოს, მაგრამ მან ის უნდა ისწავლოს!

I just want to make sure I understand how both function properly, so if we swapped the 3rd person singular for the first person singular, would the sentence change to this?

(მე) არ მინდა მათემატიკა ვისწავლო, მაგრამ (მე) ის უნდა ვისწავლო!


Yes, this is right. უნდა as "must" is more like a modal particle than an auxiliary verb.

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Re: Your Questions about Georgian Grammar

Postby Kavkaz » 2017-05-09, 20:40

Thanks. On a different note, have you ever looked through Hewitt's A Georgian Reader (School of Oriental and African Studies, 1996)? It's expensive, but not exorbitantly so. I'm wondering if it's a worthwhile investment.
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Re: Your Questions about Georgian Grammar

Postby HoneyBuzzard » 2017-05-10, 20:17

No, I've never seen it. But it looks interesting.

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Re: Your Questions about Georgian Grammar

Postby Kavkaz » 2017-05-14, 21:19

What kind of verb is უარყოფს? Is it a relative I. conjugation root verb? უ-არყოფ-ს?

EDIT: Actually you can disregard this question. I see now it's one of those verbs that is derived from an adjective/participle that adds the -qops ending. In this case, it comes from უარი, 'refusal'.
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Re: Your Questions about Georgian Grammar

Postby E}{pugnator » 2017-05-15, 15:10

Re screeve usage, I hear pluperfect all the time in TV series:

უნდა გავაკეთებინა
(Now I wonder...does it also mean "I had to do it" or just "I should have done it"?

Perfect is also essential for negations.

I hear the present and future subjunctive forms less often, but maybe it's me that aren't keen to detecting those forms ending in e .
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Re: Your Questions about Georgian Grammar

Postby Kavkaz » 2017-05-15, 17:35

გმადლობთ E}{pugnator.

My next question is about the verb ეწვევა. Is it a II. conjugation root verb ending in -ev (addressed in 15.1.4 in Aronson's grammar)? If so, is it parsed as ე-წვევ-ა, where ე- shows that it is relative and takes the ჰ/ს-series indirect object markers?

If that's the case, would these be the correct forms for the aorist?

I visited you (sing.) - გეწვიე
I visited you (pl.) - გეწვიეთ
I visited him/her/them - ვეწვიე

We visited you (sing.) - გეწვიეთ
We visited you (pl.) - გეწვიეთ
We visited him/her/them - ვეწვიეთ

You (sing.) visited me - მეწვიე
You (sing.) visited us - გვეწვიე
You (sing.) visited him/her/them - ეწვიე

You (pl.) visited me - მეწვიეთ
You (pl.) visited us - გვეწვიეთ
You (pl.) visited him/her/them - ეწვიეთ

He/she visited me - მეწვია
He/she visited us - გვეწვია
He/she visited you (sing.) - გეწვია
He/she visited you (pl.) - გეწვიათ
He/she visited him/her/it/them - ეწვია

They visited me - მეწვიეს
They visited us - გვეწვიეს
They visited you (sing.) - გეწვიეს
They visited you (pl.) - გეწვიეთ
They visited him/her/it/them - ეწვიეს

Some of these yield very few search results using Google, so I'm not terribly confident that I'm correct. Or is just not a commonly used verb?
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Re: Your Questions about Georgian Grammar

Postby HoneyBuzzard » 2017-05-17, 17:47

Kavkaz wrote:My next question is about the verb ეწვევა. Is it a II. conjugation root verb ending in -ev (addressed in 15.1.4 in Aronson's grammar)? If so, is it parsed as ე-წვევ-ა, where ე- shows that it is relative and takes the ჰ/ს-series indirect object markers?

If that's the case, would these be the correct forms for the aorist?


Almost right. It is a class II verb ე-წვევ-ა, but class II uses aorist third person plural in -ნენ, not -ეს, and class II verbs in -ევ have the peculiarity that they retain the -ვ in the stem with -ნენ (and only -ნენ). I don't think Aronson mentions this until the follow-up book, A Continuing Course.

They visited me - მეწვივნენ
They visited us - გვეწვივნენ
They visited you (sing.) - გეწვივნენ
They visited you (pl.) - გეწვივნენ
They visited him/her/it/them - ეწვივნენ

The loss of -ს with plural -თ only happens when the -ს is part of a singular ending. It's not relevant here since the verb uses plural -ნენ, but something like "they invited you (pl.) in" would be მიგიწვიეს (from class I მი=იწვევს, here underlyingly მი=გ-ი-წვივ-ეს-თ), compare the optative "that he let you (pl.) in" მიგიწვიოთ (underlyingly მი=გ-ი-წვივ-ოს-თ).

I like to think that the verb only has one slot available for a plural suffix, and if the subject marker wants to use it, it gets priority, hence a form like გეწვივნენ with overwritten -თ.

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Re: Your Questions about Georgian Grammar

Postby Kavkaz » 2017-05-18, 16:22

Thanks, and thanks in advance for any help you can give me for the following:

1) Is მივსცემდი at least a theoretically correct form of მიცემა in the conditional with a first person singular subject and a third person object? I'm reading a sentence that uses მივცემდი, but I thought the -ს- would be retained, since it doesn't eclipse the subjective -ვ- (Aronson 7.2.4.). Is it correct either way or am I missing something?

Just for context, the sentence is :

მან თქვა, უფლება რომ მქონდეს, სიამოვნებით მივცემდი ხმას საქართველოს დამოუკიდებლობასო.
"He said that if he had the right, he would gladly cast a vote for Georgia's independence."
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Re: Your Questions about Georgian Grammar

Postby HoneyBuzzard » 2017-05-18, 19:11

It's valid, but in practical terms it seems rarely to appear in Modern Georgian. Most of the examples I can find are either Old Georgian or archaizing (and not just for this verb, any (ს)ც-initial stem in the first person). I did find a few examples through Google, but they looked formulaic.

ს/ჰ is generally unstable. A Continuing Course says:

The 3rd person indirect object markers ჰ- | ს- are not used consistently in modern Georgian. They are often found where, according to the norm, they should not occur, and, vice sersa, often fail to occur in forms where, according to the norm, they should.


I don't know if Aronson intended this, but it might be significant that it's a quotation, i.e., spoken language.

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Re: Your Questions about Georgian Grammar

Postby Kavkaz » 2017-05-19, 15:24

Oh ok, I see, thanks. I'll have to get to the Continuing Course text eventually.

I'd like to confirm that (a) I'm understanding what I've read properly, (b) (c) and ask questions about a couple of verbs.

(a) გამომეტყველება უნდა იყოს მრავლისმთქმელი

For a subject, the optative governs whatever case the corresponding aorist takes, right? And the aorist of ყოფნა is just the nominative, and that's why გამომეტყველება is in the nominative? Similarly, if it was a II. conj. verb in the optative, the subject would be in the nominative?

ადამიანს უნდა შეეძლოს მასში რაღაც ამოუცნობის შეგრძნება.

Now I think here ადამიანი is the subject and is in the dative because შეეძლება is a IV. conj verb, and for all screeves of the IV. conj. the subject is in the dative. Correct?

(b) მანეკები შეიძლება ლამაზებიც კი არ იყვნენ, მაგრამ მათი სახე უნდა მეტყველებდეს.

My question here is why is the present conjunctive მეტყველებდეს being used and not the optative? Is it a defective verb that lacks the optative, thus swapping in the conjunctive in its place? I did a search for the expected 3rd singular optative form იმეტყველოს and did find it being used; for example, the headline როგორ უნდა იმეტყველოს ჟურნალისტმა. Perhaps it is a defective verb but in colloquial language people are starting to use an invented optative form of it? I know you said the spoken language isn't your thing, but perhaps you know whether it's defective or not and if what I just said sounds plausible. Thanks.

Edit:

(c) Another question. Why is the future of მძულს I hate შემძულდება? I'm mostly puzzled by the addition of the -დ- before the ending. I thought the rule for forming the future of IV. conj. verbs was drop the present/future stem formant and add -ებ-. Is this an anomaly or something that happens commonly? I would have thought the future first person singular form would be მეძულება (which Google and Aronson both confirm exists).

And things are only further complicated by the sentence სტალინს სძულდა საქართველო which lacks the შე- pre-verb that the same book just said is a feature of the future of სძულს (and I thought the aorist was based on the future form).
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Re: Your Questions about Georgian Grammar

Postby HoneyBuzzard » 2017-05-19, 19:05

Yes, it's a nice follow-up to the first book. The pages are falling out of mine, heh.

Kavkaz wrote:(a) გამომეტყველება უნდა იყოს მრავლისმთქმელი

For a subject, the optative governs whatever case the corresponding aorist takes, right? And the aorist of ყოფნა is just the nominative, and that's why გამომეტყველება is in the nominative? Similarly, if it was a II. conj. verb in the optative, the subject would be in the nominative?


I can't think of any verbs that use a different syntax in the aorist compared to the optative. That's why the screeves are usually organized into series with the second series being the aorist and optative. With ყოფნა the second series follows the pattern of a class II verb, so, as you say, გამომეტყველება is nominative.

Kavkaz wrote:ადამიანს უნდა შეეძლოს მასში რაღაც ამოუცნობის შეგრძნება.

Now I think here ადამიანი is the subject and is in the dative because შეეძლება is a IV. conj verb, and for all screeves of the IV. conj. the subject is in the dative. Correct?


Yes, უნდა is essentially a modal particle, and ადამიანს is the (inverted) subject of შეეძლება.

Kavkaz wrote:(b) მანეკები შეიძლება ლამაზებიც კი არ იყვნენ, მაგრამ მათი სახე უნდა მეტყველებდეს.

My question here is why is the present conjunctive მეტყველებდეს being used and not the optative?


There are special uses of უნდა with the conjunctive. From A Continuing Course p. 404:

უნდა plus conjunctive. This construction often has the meaning 'is supposed to, should.'

რომ თავისი დღენი ქუდით უნდა ბუზს ერეკებოდეს. '[...] that he should chase flies away with a hat all his life.'

ერთი გაჰყევი ჯონს და აჩვენე იქ სად უნდა დაბინავდეს. 'Please just accompany John and show him where he is supposed to be housed.


This mostly seems to be with the future conjunctive. With the present conjunctive it also often means "seems to be, supposedly is." უნდა ნიშნავდეს ხის კორძს "[his name] should mean 'a knot in a tree.'"

Kavkaz wrote:(c) Another question. Why is the future of მძულს I hate შემძულდება? I'm mostly puzzled by the addition of the -დ- before the ending. I thought the rule for forming the future of IV. conj. verbs was drop the present/future stem formant and add -ებ-. Is this an anomaly or something that happens commonly? I would have thought the future first person singular form would be მეძულება (which Google and Aronson both confirm exists).

And things are only further complicated by the sentence სტალინს სძულდა საქართველო which lacks the შე- pre-verb that the same book just said is a feature of the future of სძულს (and I thought the aorist was based on the future form).


Georgian has a lot of this. The same roots are used in different verbs, which then supplement each other's missing screeves. An obvious example is *თქვ-ამ, which we were talking about earlier, e.g., it shows up in future/presents like წარმო+თქვამს "pronounce sth." even though in ამბობს it supplements the aorist.

The Georgian Verb: A Morphosyntactic Analysis, which goes a fair bit beyond the traditional four classes, classifies the root *ძულ under "type I, class 3" and says:

Type I, Class 3 verbs of the third diathesis regularly produce imperfect and present conjunctive forms, but do not produce series II forms. In the colloquial language, many speakers substitute imperfect screeve forms suffixed in -დ for them in the aorist. In addition to this, Type I, Class 3 verbs rarely generate future group forms, but, when they do, they are produced in a regular manner: by adding the double present thematic suffix -ებ-ი (which is characteristic of second diathesis dynamic verbs) to the presumed aorist form. Finally, note that series III forms of Type I , Class 3 verbs are produced like second diathesis bipersonal indirect transitive dynamic verbs, but usually without preverbs.

(This is why Shanidze called these mediopassive verbs: they "borrow" their missing screeves from დონიანი verbs and their future group and series III forms are produced like dynamic passive structure verbs.)


I don't know how useful this information is, but the idea should be clear: The verbs in this subgroup supplement their future screeves by borrowing from დონიანი ("დ-having") verbs. შემძულდება is more properly "I will come to hate sth.," but მძულს doesn't have its own future, so it borrows one.

A form like სძულდა is either the imperfect of მძულს or the rare(ish) imperfect aorist of შემძულდება. I don't remember if Aronson talks about the imperfect aorist in A Reading Grammar, but A Continuing Course has a bit about it. It indicates "an action that was repeated a number of times or which lasted a given period of time [...] Perfective aorist series screeves often focus on the result of the action, while imperfective aorist screeves do not."

ეძულება is probably formed according to §12.3.2. I suppose the difference from მძულს would be an expression of an emotion, not an "active" hatred.

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Re: Your Questions about Georgian Grammar

Postby HoneyBuzzard » 2017-05-20, 10:33

Hmm, I've looked a little more into it, and A Morphosyntactic Analysis does actually list a future ეძულება, as does Apridonidze's dictionary. The only example I can find that I know is intended as future (because it's a translation from a Greek future) uses an active derivation from the same root, შეიძულებს. I'm not sure what to make of this honestly.

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Re: Your Questions about Georgian Grammar

Postby księżycowy » 2017-05-23, 9:59

Kavkaz wrote:Oh ok, I see, thanks. I'll have to get to the Continuing Course text eventually

Just here to break the bad news that that textbook is out of print. It's rather hard to find used copies as well.

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Re: Your Questions about Georgian Grammar

Postby Kavkaz » 2017-05-25, 21:23

księżycowy wrote:
Kavkaz wrote:Oh ok, I see, thanks. I'll have to get to the Continuing Course text eventually

Just here to break the bad news that that textbook is out of print. It's rather hard to find used copies as well.


Really? I went to Slavica's website and they appear to sell it there for around $45.

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Re: Your Questions about Georgian Grammar

Postby Kavkaz » 2017-05-25, 21:43

Thanks for the exhaustive answer, HoneyBuzzard. That book you cited sounds interesting; too bad it's from Dunwoody Press, who as far as I can tell has gone out of business, and the only books of theirs that are on the market are incredibly expensive.

I was trying to read some news articles today. This article caught my attention for, ahem, obvious reasons. Could you tell me if my translation is more or less correct? Here's the text so you don't have to actually go to the site:

"რუსეთის რეგიონებში რომ ძალიან ცუდი გზებია, ამის შესახებ ადრეც ვწერდით. სტილისტმა ანა მოსკვიჩევამ გადაწყვიტა, პროტესტი ცოტა სხვანაირად გამოეხატა. ეს ფოტოები და ვიდეო, რომელსაც ქვემოთ ნახავთ, სარატოვშია გადაღებული. სიმართლე ვთქვათ, ფოტოების და ვიდეოს ნახვისას ცუდ გზებს ცოტა ვინმე თუ მიაქცევს ყურადღებას, მაგრამ მაინც - ე.წ. ”პერპორმანსი” შედგა."

"We were reading earlier about regions of Russia that have very bad roads. Stylist Anna Moskvicheva decided to protest a little differently. These photos and video, which you see below, were taken in Saratov. Let's be honest, few people will cast their attention to the bad roads while looking at these photos and video, however she still put on a so-called "performance" regardless."

A few things:

(1) The derivative declension in the dative is being used with ნახვა to mean "during, while" (Aronson 8.6) right?
(2) I have the feeling I didn't understand the last section, "...მაგრამ მაინც - ე.წ. ”პერპორმანსი” შედგა" properly.
(3) I didn't know what the function of თუ was. Would a better translation be something like, "Let's be honest, few people will cast their attention to the bad roads if they're looking at these photos and video"?
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Re: Your Questions about Georgian Grammar

Postby księżycowy » 2017-05-25, 23:11

Kavkaz wrote:
Really? I went to Slavica's website and they appear to sell it there for around $45.

https://slavica.indiana.edu/bookListing ... an_Culture

Last time I checked​, which mind you was a few years ago, they still had it listed on their site and yet the book was OOP. I actually emailed them to inquire, precisely because it was still listed.

It is possible they have/could print it again, but given the interest in Georgian it's probably not very likely, unfortunately.

Also, notice the Amazon button under the price for the link to buy it. It brings up the Amazon page that says it's unavailable.

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Re: Your Questions about Georgian Grammar

Postby Kavkaz » 2017-05-26, 5:48

księżycowy wrote:
Kavkaz wrote:
Really? I went to Slavica's website and they appear to sell it there for around $45.

https://slavica.indiana.edu/bookListing ... an_Culture

Last time I checked​, which mind you was a few years ago, they still had it listed on their site and yet the book was OOP. I actually emailed them to inquire, precisely because it was still listed.

It is possible they have/could print it again, but given the interest in Georgian it's probably not very likely, unfortunately.

Also, notice the Amazon button under the price for the link to buy it. It brings up the Amazon page that says it's unavailable.


I hope that's not the case, as I'd like to get a copy...compared to other Georgian resources, $45 is pretty affordable.
Native: [flag=]en-us[/flag]
Intermediate: [flag=]ru[/flag]
Beginner: [flag=]ka[/flag]
Interested: [flag=]ab[/flag][flag=]ce[/flag][flag=]inh[/flag][flag=]kbd[/flag][flag=]av[/flag]

Kavkaz
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Re: Your Questions about Georgian Grammar

Postby Kavkaz » 2017-05-26, 6:03

To HoneyBuzzard:

Is it common to see the conjunctive swapped out for the conditional? I'm specifically talking about this sentence:

მისივე განცხადებით, ის რომ აუდიტის სამსახურის ხელმძღვანელობის საკითხზე ივანიშვილის შეთავაზებას დათანხმებოდა, ოთარ ფარცხალაძე მსგავს ქმედებას ვერ ჩაიდენდა.

It seems to me that დათანხმებოდა is in the conditional. However the subject of the sentence (Khukhashvili) did not accept Ivanishvili's offer, making it a counterfactual and thus the perfect opportunity to use the conjunctive. Am I missing something or is it common to use the conditional where the conjunctive would fit? Is this -- ...ის რომ აუდიტის სამსახურის ხელმძღვანელობის საკითხზე ივანიშვილის შეთავაზებას დათანხმებოდეს... -- grammatically sound?
Native: [flag=]en-us[/flag]
Intermediate: [flag=]ru[/flag]
Beginner: [flag=]ka[/flag]
Interested: [flag=]ab[/flag][flag=]ce[/flag][flag=]inh[/flag][flag=]kbd[/flag][flag=]av[/flag]

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księżycowy
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Re: Your Questions about Georgian Grammar

Postby księżycowy » 2017-05-26, 8:55

Kavkaz wrote:Thanks for the exhaustive answer, HoneyBuzzard. That book you cited sounds interesting; too bad it's from Dunwoody Press, who as far as I can tell has gone out of business, and the only books of theirs that are on the market are incredibly expensive.

Dunwoody is still alive and seemingly well. They sell most of their publications on Amazon now (under the seller name. "Dunwoody Press"). I'm not sure if the particular book you guys are talking about is for sale or not though. I know I've looked for some of their books and for whatever reason they don't seem to sell them anymore. Or at the very least, they don't list them.

Kavkaz wrote:I hope that's not the case, as I'd like to get a copy...compared to other Georgian resources, $45 is pretty affordable.

You're more then welcome to contact Slavica.

I happened to be lucky and get a copy from a seller on Amazon for a steal after finding out it was OOP. I indicated I was interested in buying a copy. I don't know if Amazon let's you still do that or not, as I haven't done it since.


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