Rap lyrics = "Ebonics"?

Moderator: JackFrost

User avatar
Karavinka
Posts: 2309
Joined: 2004-04-24, 4:00
Gender: male
Location: Montréal
Country: CA Canada (Canada)

Postby Karavinka » 2005-10-06, 20:09

I wouldn't mind learning Ebonics in the school. No, actually I'd love to do so. I think Ebonics is a dialect of English, and I also think I have the right to choose which dialect of whatever language I wish to learn.

Anyway, "standard" language is still a dialect.
↑ ↑ ↓ ↓ ← → ← → B A
Spoiler Alert: Turkish | -30 Thai | Sink or Zapotec

Jamie*On
Posts: 379
Joined: 2005-09-10, 21:53
Gender: female
Location: GB, London
Country: SD Sudan (السودان / Soudan)

Postby Jamie*On » 2005-10-06, 20:19

Anyway, "standard" language is still a dialect.


How true.

User avatar
Ariki
Posts: 2410
Joined: 2004-10-01, 14:53
Real Name: Tāne
Gender: male
Country: NZ New Zealand (New Zealand / Aotearoa)

Postby Ariki » 2005-10-06, 22:15

I could quote some of your passages about "awful Maori" which uses "strange words". Shouldn't these also be taught in primary schools, then?


No, those are words that are rejected by all speakers and for some reason or other, they made it in to the dictionary (the one that I'm talking about hasn't made it in to the curriculum yet, whāmere, family, which is culturally errosive and is not supported as a 'real' word by any speaker - native or second language speaker).

In my mind there are two kinds of transliterations - transliterations for new items which don't have a Māori translation worked out (yet) and those that are extraneous that are imposed by second language speakers who haven't mastered the language yet.

An example of the second type is ierō (for rengarenga, yellow).

Then you have a word like hēki (transliteration from 'egg') which makes its way in to the language, and then, you have commentators in comparing Cook Islands Māori to New Zealand Māori saying how innovative of Cook Islands Māori having `uāmoa for egg (lit. chicken egg), when in fact, Māori does the same as well 'hua manu'.

What ebonic speakers are doing is different - they are native speakers of English speaking in their own dialect and coining new phrases and words etc etc. With Māori, it is second language learners trying to make it easier on themselves to learn the language - shortcuts which I don't think ought to be taken.

This is why so many native speakers of Māori can quickly identify who is not a native speaker - when the native speaker uses far more transliterations than necessary (a lot more to what I termed 'a lot' in one of my previous posts about transliteration use in Māori language).

AAVE isn't about taking shortcuts - it is how the dialect is spoken.

In primary school? First of all, it's impractical. Second, people would begin complaining immediately - "why can't we learn __?", or "why are my kids learning how to talk like __?", etc. Not only that, but can you imagine the cost of such an education? Let's leave those things for university courses and profs to teach


Well see, most people in California I would say, speak one dialect with regional variations. Everyone who speaks English should learn at least three. You could teach the local state dialect, then the standard dialect and then an extra dialect on top of that.

The cost? What's so expensive getting a dictophone and recording native speakers as they read out stories and have their voices recorded?

No, learning a foreign language is NOT the same; we can use foreign languages for practical purposes like communicating with people, getting jobs, travelling, teaching, etc.


Well with AAVE, it seems that there is very low mutual intelligibility if one is not educated in the lexicon of that dialect. Also, you're giving a subtle hint that AAVE is impractical because it can't be used with communicating with people, getting jobs travelling etc etc. AAVE is respectable in music circles, and those musicians who use AAVE is the vehicular dialect seem to have found great success.

As stated previously, Ebonics is a vague term used to describe American Black English in general, and as a result, has racist connotations. Is it only me who sees this?? It's like teaching kids how to speak Chinglish or Engrish. How is that CRAP even acceptable?


Racist connotations? I don't see any racist connotations - if I meet someone who uses AAVE I'm not going to look down on them. It's not like teaching children how to speak 'insert language name'glish. That's code mixing, and AAVE is far from code mixing.

Like it or not, colonization is the reason we can communicate and speak English, French, Dutch, Spanish, and a few other major languages.


How is that any justification for views that are biased against the ever increasing variety of English spoken?
Linguicide IS genocide. :)

He ingoa ōpaki a Riki; he ingoa ōkawa a Ariki.

Riki is an informal name; Ariki is a formal name.

User avatar
reflexsilver86
Posts: 982
Joined: 2004-12-24, 21:12
Real Name: Joseph Lupia
Gender: male
Location: Tampa, Florida
Country: US United States (United States)
Contact:

Postby reflexsilver86 » 2005-10-07, 2:30

noir wrote:I wouldn't mind learning Ebonics in the school. No, actually I'd love to do so. I think Ebonics is a dialect of English, and I also think I have the right to choose which dialect of whatever language I wish to learn.

Anyway, "standard" language is still a dialect.


I don't know if this is actually a "right." You have the right to speak whatever way you want to speak, but since when is it a right to demand that you be taught in whatever dialect it is you want to learn?
Français, Português, Italiano, Nederlands, Español

Future:
Íslenska, Deutsch


Un esprit sain dans un corps sain.

Oric
Posts: 98
Joined: 2004-11-07, 0:18
Real Name: Benjamin Vickers
Gender: male
Location: Georgetown
Country: US United States (United States)
Contact:

Postby Oric » 2005-10-07, 23:59

riki wrote:
Wow, you're white.

That's just as random as saying 'wow, you're female!' 'wow, you're smart!' or even 'wow, that's spam!'. That's called spamming.


Well, I didn't mean white in the literal sense of the word- I meant that he's white in the way he talks.

User avatar
Karavinka
Posts: 2309
Joined: 2004-04-24, 4:00
Gender: male
Location: Montréal
Country: CA Canada (Canada)

Postby Karavinka » 2005-10-08, 5:07

reflexsilver86 wrote:
noir wrote:I wouldn't mind learning Ebonics in the school. No, actually I'd love to do so. I think Ebonics is a dialect of English, and I also think I have the right to choose which dialect of whatever language I wish to learn.

Anyway, "standard" language is still a dialect.


I don't know if this is actually a "right." You have the right to speak whatever way you want to speak, but since when is it a right to demand that you be taught in whatever dialect it is you want to learn?


You have a point. We all we have the right to learn any language we want, but we can hardly find Inuktitut, Classical Mongolian or Wallon classes in school. (At least where I live) Since there aren't much demand for them, there is no supply!

If there are enough demands to have a class, there will be a class for Ebonics. Simple supply & demand. Why do you think people don't have this right?
↑ ↑ ↓ ↓ ← → ← → B A
Spoiler Alert: Turkish | -30 Thai | Sink or Zapotec

Jamie*On
Posts: 379
Joined: 2005-09-10, 21:53
Gender: female
Location: GB, London
Country: SD Sudan (السودان / Soudan)

Postby Jamie*On » 2005-10-08, 15:53

Please can we get back to the topic and try to figure out the song, or should I give up all hope?

:(

User avatar
Gormur
Posts: 7619
Joined: 2005-05-17, 1:11
Real Name: Gormur
Gender: male
Country: CU Cuba (Cuba)
Contact:

Postby Gormur » 2005-10-08, 23:24

Oric wrote:I meant that he's white in the way he talks.


That's a subjective statement if I've ever heard one.
Last edited by Gormur on 2005-10-09, 2:05, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Ariki
Posts: 2410
Joined: 2004-10-01, 14:53
Real Name: Tāne
Gender: male
Country: NZ New Zealand (New Zealand / Aotearoa)

Postby Ariki » 2005-10-09, 1:56

can you fix your quote that you made gormur. That makes me look like I said it :oops: :?
Linguicide IS genocide. :)

He ingoa ōpaki a Riki; he ingoa ōkawa a Ariki.

Riki is an informal name; Ariki is a formal name.

User avatar
Gormur
Posts: 7619
Joined: 2005-05-17, 1:11
Real Name: Gormur
Gender: male
Country: CU Cuba (Cuba)
Contact:

Postby Gormur » 2005-10-09, 2:08

riki wrote:can you fix your quote that you made gormur. That makes me look like I said it :oops: :?


Ok, fixed. Sorry about that. 8)

grocer
Posts: 44
Joined: 2005-01-14, 9:36
Gender: female
Location: US

Postby grocer » 2005-10-09, 2:36

Jamie*On wrote:Please can we get back to the topic and try to figure out the song, or should I give up all hope?

:(


It's not the easiest task if you aren't up to date with her life and what she is on about. Just glancing at the text, that seems to be the larger obstacle than the actual AAVE. I'll take a crack at it in a second though..



edit: Sorry, it is indeed context that is missing. If there are any specific passages, it might be easier to address that way. As for this one:

He had the block locked he knew the spot block
On some real web sh_t to get your spot knocked by killer cops
Tryin to get your sh_t rocked, he don't know, cause all along
We was plottin to drop on the low, he straight snitch.


locked= to have under control/everything planned out
web= trap, sting operation for this crime
spot knocked by killer cops= get busted
get you sh_t rocked= set you up for this crime
drop= fight/kill him
on the low= "on the down low"= secretly

Jamie*On
Posts: 379
Joined: 2005-09-10, 21:53
Gender: female
Location: GB, London
Country: SD Sudan (السودان / Soudan)

Postby Jamie*On » 2005-10-09, 11:44

Thanks! The only part that still seems difficult is:

get you sh_t rocked= set you up for this crime

spot knocked by killer cops= get busted

I guess the grammar doesn't make it easy to figure out as well as the slang, when the syntax is all jumbled up you have to really try hard to figure out the meaning.


Return to “English”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest