how do you pronounce these words?

[Kirk]

I have a couple of pronunciation-related questions I asked on another forum but with the greater volume of people here I'd like to see what people here at unilang have to say (particular if you're a native speaker, but others are free to comment as well).

Who here says "bolth" [boɫθ] for "both?" I often do. In fact I'd say that's the normal form I use. One thing related to this I should probably mention is that in my speech, as is common here, the vowel /o/ is backened and rounded due to the influence of the following velarized alveolar lateral approximant [ɫ]. While my /o/ is typically only mid-back and largely unrounded, it's definitely back and more rounded before [ɫ]. Thus, when I say "both" without [ɫ], it sounds funny to me because the lack of [ɫ] makes the /o/ be realized as less-rounded [o̜] as is expected as my normal realization. So, not saying the [ɫ] is not just a matter of leaving out the [ɫ], but also noticeably affects the preceding vowel.

I'm curious as to how many other people do this. I never realized I did this until someone (another linguistics-oriented person) pointed it out to me, and now that I've been listening closely I've noticed a lot of people here do it as well, and I'm sure almost all of them are unaware of it. It's also not stigmatized, since no one apparently realizes it--I've had many a professor say [boɫθ]. Also, this seems to be one of those random parasitical consonant things, as it doesn't occur in other words in similar environments. I've just been wondering how many other speakers do this.

Another pronunciation of mine--I normally say [mɛɫk] for "milk," and this is another common pronunciation I hear here as well. Once again, this doesn't appear to be a consistent sound change, as I have [ɪɫk] for "ilk," and [sɪɫk] for "silk." I have I have [ˈmɪɫjɪn] for "million" and [ˈmɪɫdɯ] for "mildew," so it's not the /m/ either. How many others say "melk" for "milk?"

[MikeL]

Regarding "bolth", I wouldn't expect this pronunciation to occur in British RP, Australian or NZ, owing to the quite different (fronted) vowels/diphthong.
For "milk" - can't display IPA so not too sure of your exact sounds but I'm assuming it is "miuk"?
This is the normal pronunciation in Cockney, and I think it's generalized so that "ilk", "silk" etc. would be the same. The Cockney pronunciation also tends to lengthen the "i" and exaggerate the "u" to the extent that the word starts to sound disyllabic - almost approaching "me 'ook". And of course the -k is often replaced by a slight glottal stop as well. Get an Eastside Londer to say "milk bottle" and work out how many phonemes are identical to the American pronunciation: I think it's just the 2 initial consonants!

[Kirk]

Regarding "bolth", I wouldn't expect this pronunciation to occur in British RP, Australian or NZ, owing to the quite different (fronted) vowels/diphthong.
For "milk" - can't display IPA so not too sure of your exact sounds but I'm assuming it is "miuk"?
This is the normal pronunciation in Cockney, and I think it's generalized so that "ilk", "silk" etc. would be the same. The Cockney pronunciation also tends to lengthen the "i" and exaggerate the "u" to the extent that the word starts to sound disyllabic - almost approaching "me 'ook". And of course the -k is often replaced by a slight glottal stop as well. Get an Eastside Londer to say "milk bottle" and work out how many phonemes are identical to the American pronunciation: I think it's just the 2 initial consonants!

Haha. Oh, yes, sorry, maybe I should've included XSAMPA for that. I pronounce "milk" as [mE5k], so no it's not vocalized. And it lies in contrast with "ilk" [I5k] and "silk" [sI5k]. My /l/s don't become vocalized in any environment, as far as I'm aware--I think that feature is absent in North American English.

[JackFrost]

Sometimes "bot", sometimes "both". It all depends how I'm speaking and the speed I'm using. In my region, the "Wyoming Valley English" is an unique "accent" region in the whole state. We tend to not to say the "th" sounds sometimes, depending on the speaker. It's mainly due to Slavic influences from those floods of immigrants from Slav countries in the late 19th century. I can assure you I am capable of saying the "th" sounds though.

http://www.evolpub.com/Americandialects ... alMap.html
I live in "Anthracite region", which is part of the Northern dialects. Yep, the famous coal mining region.

Anthracite Region

Geographical extent: Luzerne and Schuylkill Counties, western Lackawanna County--region of extensive anthracite coal mining.

Urban centers: Scranton/Wilkes-Barre

Summary: Northern dialect, with a complicated linguistic history. Upstate New York-type in origin, with later mixture of Eastern Pennsylvania (German) features, and more recently Slavic superstrata due to immigration. Schuylkill county somewhat different situation: originally heavily Germanized dialect of Lehigh Valley-type, now following Scranton-Wilkes Barre pattern.
The area's first settlers from Connecticut and Upstate New York brought with them a "Yankee" dialect, but Pennsylvania Midland dialects began blending with it soon after, as Pennsylvania Germans began immigrating in numbers. More recently, there seems also to have been input from metropolitan Philadelphia. Interestingly, there are some significant parallels with New York City pronunciation: consistent reduction of hard and soft TH: dis (this), tink (think); full pronunciation of the G in final -ng, e.g. coming gup (coming up), and use of the glottal stop for medial -tt-: bo'l (bottle). The reduction of TH is common to many other urban dialects of the north, but in the Scranton area it appears to be practiced much more consistently and is even recognized as a local shibboleth (De Camp 1940).
It is possible that such changes are due to Eastern European immigration at the turn of the century. One particularly recent characteristic of the Anthracite dialect attributed to Slavic influence, is the merger of O and AW in cot and caught. Herold's study (1990) determined that this was not an extension of the Western Pennsylvania merger, but was rather an independant local development among coal mining immigrants, which is now establishing itself in the entire speech community.

[SpaceFlight]

For me, ''both'' is definitely /boUT/, not ''bolth''.

I pronounce ''milk'' as /mI5k/, not /mE5k/. I've never heard ''milk'' pronounced as /mE5k/. It's seems to be predominantly /mI5k/ here.

[Kirk]

Sometimes "bot", sometimes "both". It all depends how I'm speaking and the speed I'm using. In my region, the "Wyoming Valley English" is an unique "accent" region in the whole state. We tend to not to say the "th" sounds sometimes, depending on the speaker. It's mainly due to Slavic influences from those floods of immigrants from Slav countries in the late 19th century. I can assure you I am capable of saying the "th" sounds though.

http://www.evolpub.com/Americandialects ... alMap.html
I live in "Anthracite region", which is part of the Northern dialects. Yep, the famous coal mining region.

Anthracite Region

Geographical extent: Luzerne and Schuylkill Counties, western Lackawanna County--region of extensive anthracite coal mining.

Urban centers: Scranton/Wilkes-Barre

Summary: Northern dialect, with a complicated linguistic history. Upstate New York-type in origin, with later mixture of Eastern Pennsylvania (German) features, and more recently Slavic superstrata due to immigration. Schuylkill county somewhat different situation: originally heavily Germanized dialect of Lehigh Valley-type, now following Scranton-Wilkes Barre pattern.
The area's first settlers from Connecticut and Upstate New York brought with them a "Yankee" dialect, but Pennsylvania Midland dialects began blending with it soon after, as Pennsylvania Germans began immigrating in numbers. More recently, there seems also to have been input from metropolitan Philadelphia. Interestingly, there are some significant parallels with New York City pronunciation: consistent reduction of hard and soft TH: dis (this), tink (think); full pronunciation of the G in final -ng, e.g. coming gup (coming up), and use of the glottal stop for medial -tt-: bo'l (bottle). The reduction of TH is common to many other urban dialects of the north, but in the Scranton area it appears to be practiced much more consistently and is even recognized as a local shibboleth (De Camp 1940).
It is possible that such changes are due to Eastern European immigration at the turn of the century. One particularly recent characteristic of the Anthracite dialect attributed to Slavic influence, is the merger of O and AW in cot and caught. Herold's study (1990) determined that this was not an extension of the Western Pennsylvania merger, but was rather an independant local development among coal mining immigrants, which is now establishing itself in the entire speech community.

Cool..thanks for that description. I wasn't familiar with that area's speech before

[SpaceFlight]

''Another pronunciation of mine--I normally say [mɛɫk] for "milk," and this is another common pronunciation I hear here as well. Once again, this doesn't appear to be a consistent sound change, as I have [ɪɫk] for "ilk," and [sɪɫk] for "silk." I have I have [ˈmɪɫjɪn] for "million" and [ˈmɪɫdɯ] for "mildew," so it's not the /m/ either. How many others say "melk" for "milk?"''

Kirk,

I have read that some people who say ''melk'', also say ''pellow'' and ''vanella'' for ''pillow'' and ''vanilla''.

[Kirk]

''Another pronunciation of mine--I normally say [mɛɫk] for "milk," and this is another common pronunciation I hear here as well. Once again, this doesn't appear to be a consistent sound change, as I have [ɪɫk] for "ilk," and [sɪɫk] for "silk." I have I have [ˈmɪɫjɪn] for "million" and [ˈmɪɫdɯ] for "mildew," so it's not the /m/ either. How many others say "melk" for "milk?"''

Kirk,

I have read that some people who say ''melk'', also say ''pellow'' and ''vanella'' for ''pillow'' and ''vanilla''.

Yes, that's true. I'm not one of them. As I said before, I have [I5] [ɪɫ] in all cases where it's spelled "il" except for "milk." I've known a couple speakers from other areas who do say "pellow" and "vanella" but it's always stood out to me because I don't say that.

[Gormur]

hm, IPA...not sure. I pronounce both with a "lax o", with no rounding; (long, lax sound from the back of the throat). Is there an IPA symbol for that? I guess I've never thought about it before, but I also pronounce "o" more 'frontally' when speaking quickly and especially when talking to native Californians.

Another thing that I notice is the 'thick l' vs. a 'soft l' or non-existent one that becomes 'y' in much of American English. Any studies on this? Like, for instance, you will hear an American say "I won a miyion/mi'ion dollars", and a Canadian or Brit say "I've won a million dollars" - with a 'thicker' l-sound. Similarly; 'milk' becomes 'mi:k' (is that correct?). Anyway, I find myself very conscious of this variation as I now use the 'thick l' in most circumstances and words (but still use the non-existent or 'softer l' when speaking to Californians).

Sorry about the details. I have forgotten a lot.

[Gormur]

Just would like to add a test my friend gave me:

How do you tell an American from a Canadian?

Americans don't pronounce the l in always.
Canadians do.