Wingèd

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Luís
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Wingèd

Postby Luís » 2005-07-11, 20:44

I'm reading James A. Michener's "Poland" and I've found this word several times in the text (the Polish wingèd hussars). I googled a bit and found it qualifying other nouns such as in "wingèd chariot", "wingèd pines", "wingèd words", "wingèd herald", etc. However, I can't find this word in any dictionary. Almost always the accent seems to be left out ("winged hussars" appears much more often online). What I wanted to know is if there's any difference between the two words (winged and wingèd). The accent there makes me want to stress the last syllable and read the 'e' :) That is to say, I pronounce 'winged' as [wɪŋgd], but I'd pronounce 'wingèd as [wɪŋ'ged]...
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Re: Wingèd

Postby Kirk » 2005-07-11, 21:25

Luís wrote:I'm reading James A. Michener's "Poland" and I've found this word several times in the text (the Polish wingèd hussars). I googled a bit and found it qualifying other nouns such as in "wingèd chariot", "wingèd pines", "wingèd words", "wingèd herald", etc. However, I can't find this word in any dictionary. Almost always the accent seems to be left out ("winged hussars" appears much more often online). What I wanted to know is if there's any difference between the two words (winged and wingèd). The accent there makes me want to stress the last syllable and read the 'e' :) That is to say, I pronounce 'winged' as [wɪŋgd], but I'd pronounce 'wingèd as [wɪŋ'ged]...


Yes, "wingèd" is commonly pronounced as two syllables. It should be noted that "winged" is commonly used as an bisyllabic adjective even if not marked with "è" in spelling. For instance, the term "winged rats" to refer to pigeons I pronounce [ˈwiŋɪd ɹæts]--[wiŋd ɹæts] wouldn't sound right.

(yes, the first vowel is [i], not [ɪ] for me, as my dialect has front-vowel raising before velar nasal /ŋ/).

This phenomenon may also be commonly found in a few other words such as "beloved."

"His beloved cat" [hɪːz bɪˈlʌːvɪd kʰæt]
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I eat prescriptivists for breakfast.

maɪ nemz kʰɜ˞kʰ n̩ aɪ laɪk̚ fɨˈnɛ̞ɾɪ̞ks

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Postby Luís » 2005-07-11, 21:46

But why the ` there? Do you know of any other words where it's used like this? I know of English words with (optional) accents, almost all of French origin, such as fiancée, résumé, naïve, etc., but I've never seen any used to mark stress or a different pronunciation like in this case. If it's used in winged/wingèd, why not an accent to diferentiate present (the verb) from present (the noun) or export (the verb) from export (the noun) too? :)

And speaking of lack of diacritics in English, I confess I'm always tempted to read façade as something that rhymes with 'blockade' when people leave the ç out and write it as facade... :)
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Postby Kirk » 2005-07-11, 22:17

Luís wrote:But why the ` there? Do you know of any other words where it's used like this? I know of English words with (optional) accents, almost all of French origin, such as fiancée, résumé, naïve, etc., but I've never seen any used to mark stress or a different pronunciation like in this case. If it's used in winged/wingèd, why not an accent to diferentiate present (the verb) from present (the noun) or export (the verb) from export (the noun) too? :)

And speaking of lack of diacritics in English, I confess I'm always tempted to read façade as something that rhymes with 'blockade' when people leave the ç out and write it as facade... :)


Well the ` is there to mark the fact that the vowel it's over should be pronounced, it's not marking the stress of the word, which is still word-initial. This is usually only used in poetry or metric verse where for the timing to work out the ` needs to be included, but it may be included rarely in other places as well. Your façade comment is funny--I've known some people who thought it was pronounced [ˈfekʰed] before they ever heard it pronounced :)
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'Twas brillig, and the slithy toves did gyre and gimble in the wabe.

I eat prescriptivists for breakfast.

maɪ nemz kʰɜ˞kʰ n̩ aɪ laɪk̚ fɨˈnɛ̞ɾɪ̞ks

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Postby Stan » 2005-07-11, 23:30

Wasn't the ending "ed" written as "'d" long ago?

as "loved" would be written as "lov'd"?

just something that came to mind.

or was this just something used in poetry?
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Postby Kirk » 2005-07-11, 23:59

Stancel wrote:Wasn't the ending "ed" written as "'d" long ago?

as "loved" would be written as "lov'd"?

just something that came to mind.

or was this just something used in poetry?


Yes--there was a transition period in English where two forms were competing and thus interchangeable: those with a two-syllable pronunciation for words like "loved" and those with a single one. Written forms like "lov'd" represented the single-syllable variant we know today as the norm. In Shakespeare's time, for instance, the two competing forms could be used to his advantage--he could use whichever form fit better into the timing of the meter if that was an issue. By the 1700s the two-syllable pronunciation of such words had mostly died out in favor of the single one, and eventually written forms like "lov'd" were no longer necessary because everyone knew to pronounce what was written as "loved" with one syllable. The two-syllable variants still survive on the fringes of English in a few adjectival contexts..."a winged rat" "the learned man" "her beloved book," etc. The only exception, of course is for modern verbs that end in /t/ or /d/, which naturally kept the fully-pronounced "-ed," such as the words "benefited" or "traded."
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'Twas brillig, and the slithy toves did gyre and gimble in the wabe.

I eat prescriptivists for breakfast.

maɪ nemz kʰɜ˞kʰ n̩ aɪ laɪk̚ fɨˈnɛ̞ɾɪ̞ks

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Postby MikeL » 2005-07-12, 5:11

The use of the accent is a poetical convention, to show that the word is disyllabic, and would be rare in prose except for special effect. Wingèd is largely confined to the quotation "time's wingèd chariot"; confronted with "winged rat" I think many speakers of English would hesitate...
"Beloved" is frequently heard as 2 syllables also, particularly as an adjective, although as a substantive it would be more common as a trisyllable.
"Learned" as an adjective is always disyllabic, and as a past tense or past participle always monosyllabic.

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Postby Psi-Lord » 2005-07-12, 11:28

I've also learnt that 'aged', as a synonym of old, is disyllabic [ˈeɪdʒɪd], while, as a synonym of 'of the age', it's monosyllabic [eɪdʒd].
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Postby Saaropean » 2005-07-12, 12:41

Then you'd better use a trema/macron ("wingëd"), so people speaking Romance languages or Dutch can understand what you mean. ;-)

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Postby Kirk » 2005-07-12, 20:42

Psi-Lord wrote:I've also learnt that 'aged', as a synonym of old, is disyllabic [ˈeɪdʒɪd], while, as a synonym of 'of the age', it's monosyllabic [eɪdʒd].


Yeah, that's another good example of this phenomenon. Something like: "He's quite an aged man by now but he still loves his nightly jog" would have [ˈeɪdʒɪd].
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'Twas brillig, and the slithy toves did gyre and gimble in the wabe.

I eat prescriptivists for breakfast.

maɪ nemz kʰɜ˞kʰ n̩ aɪ laɪk̚ fɨˈnɛ̞ɾɪ̞ks

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''blessed''

Postby SpaceFlight » 2005-07-12, 20:48

What about ''blessed''? /blEsId/''two syllables'' vs. /blEst/ ''one syllable''.

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Re: ''blessed''

Postby Kirk » 2005-07-12, 21:16

SpaceFlight wrote:What about ''blessed''? /blEsId/''two syllables'' vs. /blEst/ ''one syllable''.


Yup, another good one. That's often used in religious contexts, so something like "the blessed saints," "the Blessed Sacrament" or "the Blessed Virgin" but it can be used in other contexts as well. Webster lists an interesting use of it as an intensive: "no one gave us a blessed penny"
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'Twas brillig, and the slithy toves did gyre and gimble in the wabe.

I eat prescriptivists for breakfast.

maɪ nemz kʰɜ˞kʰ n̩ aɪ laɪk̚ fɨˈnɛ̞ɾɪ̞ks

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Postby Stan » 2005-07-12, 22:24

I think the two-syllable "blessed" is more archaic, while the one-syllable "blessed" is more common.
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Postby Kirk » 2005-07-13, 0:17

Stancel wrote:I think the two-syllable "blessed" is more archaic, while the one-syllable "blessed" is more common.


Well certainly as a verb, but I still hear it in an adjectival sense with two syllables. For example, hearing something like "the blessed child" with one syllable sounds a bit "off" to my ears as an adjective. If it's said with one syllable it sounds like a passive , as in "the child who just got blessed" as compared to the two-syllable version which doesn't imply that but the child is venerated and holy.
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'Twas brillig, and the slithy toves did gyre and gimble in the wabe.

I eat prescriptivists for breakfast.

maɪ nemz kʰɜ˞kʰ n̩ aɪ laɪk̚ fɨˈnɛ̞ɾɪ̞ks

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''naked''

Postby SpaceFlight » 2005-07-13, 0:43

And then there's also the word ''naked'' pronounced /neIkId/.

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Postby SpaceFlight » 2005-07-13, 0:47

Yes--there was a transition period in English where two forms were competing and thus interchangeable: those with a two-syllable pronunciation for words like "loved" and those with a single one. Written forms like "lov'd" represented the single-syllable variant we know today as the norm. In Shakespeare's time, for instance, the two competing forms could be used to his advantage--he could use whichever form fit better into the timing of the meter if that was an issue. By the 1700s the two-syllable pronunciation of such words had mostly died out in favor of the single one, and eventually written forms like "lov'd" were no longer necessary because everyone knew to pronounce what was written as "loved" with one syllable.


What about ''ev'ry'' and ''ev'rybody'' though? I've seen those before. What's their purpose. It's seems to me like they're just taking out a silent letter and replacing it with an apostrophe.

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Postby Stan » 2005-07-13, 1:44

SpaceFlight wrote:
Yes--there was a transition period in English where two forms were competing and thus interchangeable: those with a two-syllable pronunciation for words like "loved" and those with a single one. Written forms like "lov'd" represented the single-syllable variant we know today as the norm. In Shakespeare's time, for instance, the two competing forms could be used to his advantage--he could use whichever form fit better into the timing of the meter if that was an issue. By the 1700s the two-syllable pronunciation of such words had mostly died out in favor of the single one, and eventually written forms like "lov'd" were no longer necessary because everyone knew to pronounce what was written as "loved" with one syllable.


What about ''ev'ry'' and ''ev'rybody'' though? I've seen those before. What's their purpose. It's seems to me like they're just taking out a silent letter and replacing it with an apostrophe.


I've seen this before too, in a song called "Lift Ev'ry voice and sing"
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Re: ''naked''

Postby Kirk » 2005-07-13, 2:33

SpaceFlight wrote:And then there's also the word ''naked'' pronounced /neIkId/.


Well, actually that's kind of a different thing going on--for instance it's not a verb so it doesn't have the adjective-verb contrast seen in the syllables in the other words. Also, the other words' "-ed"s have their roots in the past participle being used for an adjective, whereas "naked"'s "-ed" is etymologically unrelated to that. "naked" comes from Old English "nacod," not from the past participle of the nonexistent *nake.

SpaceFlight wrote:What about ''ev'ry'' and ''ev'rybody'' though? I've seen those before. What's their purpose. It's seems to me like they're just taking out a silent letter and replacing it with an apostrophe.


For some reason, spelling has given extra letters to those words, which never were pronounced as three syllables, coming from Old English "æfre." I guess the apostrophe is supposed to show that it's pronounced as 2 syllables but of course that's how everyone ( :) )pronounces it anyway. And, since I'm pretty sure it's you, Don, could you stop making up new aliases?
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'Twas brillig, and the slithy toves did gyre and gimble in the wabe.

I eat prescriptivists for breakfast.

maɪ nemz kʰɜ˞kʰ n̩ aɪ laɪk̚ fɨˈnɛ̞ɾɪ̞ks

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Re: ''naked''

Postby MikeL » 2005-07-13, 4:07

SpaceFlight wrote:And then there's also the word ''naked'' pronounced /neIkId/.


Except that naked can only be an adjective: there is no verb *to nake!

As regards "blessed": in my part of the world this word was often used by my parents' generation as an ironic euphemism for "damned" (the latter word being considered improper in polite society), as in "that blessed child" - always pronounced as a disyllable. Not heard much these days. More likely to be "that f***** child" - using a word that I cannot recall ever hearing until I was well into my teens and half-way through high school.
Last edited by MikeL on 2005-07-13, 21:00, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: ''naked''

Postby Tashi » 2005-07-13, 20:31

svenska84 wrote:
SpaceFlight wrote:What about ''ev'ry'' and ''ev'rybody'' though? I've seen those before. What's their purpose. It's seems to me like they're just taking out a silent letter and replacing it with an apostrophe.


For some reason, spelling has given extra letters to those words, which never were pronounced as three syllables


well I sometimes pronounce it as three syllables, in songs and poems for metric reasons or emphasis


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