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Lutrinae
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Re: Discussion Group

Postby Lutrinae » 2020-02-19, 17:15

I shouldn't have gotten out of it and I'd been done (talking about an app and a task we had to do)

Is it the correct formulation? I tend to get confused if I have to say "I should have got" or "I should have gotten".
Thanks for any correction :)

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Re: Discussion Group

Postby linguoboy » 2020-02-19, 17:27

Lutrinae wrote:I shouldn't have gotten out of it and I'd been done (talking about an app and a task we had to do)

Is it the correct formulation? I tend to get confused if I have to say "I should have got" or "I should have gotten".

got vs gotten is a question of dialect. ("gotten" is specifically North American.)

I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to say here. Is it that you'd have completed the task if you hadn't quit the app? Because, if so, that's how I'd phrase it:

"If I hadn't gotten out of it, I'd be done by now."

You could also say "I would have been done" ("I'd have been done" or nonstandard "I'd've been done") but that strikes me as a bit wordy.

If you really want to use "should", I'd make that a separate clause: "I shouldn't've gotten out of it. If I hadn't, I'd be done by now."

(Many NA speakers would say "didn't" there instead of "hadn't", but that usage grates on me and might be confusing to Commonwealth speakers.)
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Re: Discussion Group

Postby Lutrinae » 2020-02-19, 18:07

linguoboy wrote:
I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to say here. Is it that you'd have completed the task if you hadn't quit the app? Because, if so, that's how I'd phrase it:

"If I hadn't gotten out of it, I'd be done by now."


Yep, that! Thank you :)
Thanks for any correction :)

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Re: Discussion Group

Postby Gormur » 2020-03-04, 11:49

I thought they were trying to say:

I shouldn't have gotten out of it or I'd've been done [by now]

It just sounds incomplete to me :) :hmm:

How about rear versus raise?

I'll never forget when I was in middle school, this teacher I had forced us students to use this and sundry forms. Like, when you speak aloud you must say I was reared by my parents, not raised

Another I remember well, you must use I. In other words, your mother and I or the family and my instead of I or I's, in some dialects

I guess in my dialect, I already had these but a lot of kids seemed to have trouble :| :hmm:

For example, me and him I already knew it wasn't what I said. Though I would say him and I which is probably a hypercorrection of he and I, but I fixed that quickly. I never saw a problem with using me and my friend though

Does anyone know why that would be? :para: :hmm:
Eigi gegnir þat at segja at bók nøkkur er hreinferðug eðr ønnur spelluð því at vandliga ok dáliga eru bœkr ritnar ok annat kunnum vér eigi um þœr at dœma

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Re: Discussion Group

Postby Lutrinae » 2020-03-22, 11:39

Is it correct to say "Where is this place?" when you wanna get an answer like "This place is a school." or "This place is a park."?

To me it seems more natural to say "What is this place?"
Thanks for any correction :)

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Re: Discussion Group

Postby Dormouse559 » 2020-03-22, 18:25

Lutrinae wrote:Is it correct to say "Where is this place?" when you wanna get an answer like "This place is a school." or "This place is a park."?

To me it seems more natural to say "What is this place?"

You are correct. "What is this place?" is the proper question for the kind of answers you want. "Where is this place?" will get answers like "It's at 1234 Main Street" or "It's near the library." Identity vs. location.
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Re: Discussion Group

Postby Lutrinae » 2020-03-22, 19:11

Dormouse559 wrote:
Lutrinae wrote:Is it correct to say "Where is this place?" when you wanna get an answer like "This place is a school." or "This place is a park."?

To me it seems more natural to say "What is this place?"

You are correct. "What is this place?" is the proper question for the kind of answers you want. "Where is this place?" will get answers like "It's at 1234 Main Street" or "It's near the library." Identity vs. location.


Thanks! :D
I am using Lingodeer app as an addition to my Korean learning books, and I know that they mentioned that they would used a semi-literal translation but this seemed off more than unnatural. I guess that in Korean it can be both (Or that they made a mistake, but it supposed to be pretty good for Asian languages)

Image
Thanks for any correction :)

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Re: Discussion Group

Postby Dormouse559 » 2020-03-22, 20:51

Lutrinae wrote:I am using Lingodeer app as an addition to my Korean learning books, and I know that they mentioned that they would used a semi-literal translation but this seemed off more than unnatural. I guess that in Korean it can be both (Or that they made a mistake, but it's supposed to be pretty good for Asian languages)

Hmm, well, I don't know any Korean, so I can't tell you what's going on there. I think linguoboy knows some Korean, though. :hmm:
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Re: Discussion Group

Postby Lutrinae » 2020-03-22, 21:23

Dormouse559 wrote:Hmm, well, I don't know any Korean, so I can't tell you what's going on there. I think linguoboy knows some Korean, though. :hmm:


Yes for sure, but I should keep this for the Korean thread I guess :D :roll:
Thanks for any correction :)

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Re: Discussion Group

Postby Gormur » 2020-05-14, 10:20

Fear for your life must be a frozen expression, but feared for used in this sense seems like it must be chiefly UK (and Australia, New Zealand) English

In NAE one could say I feared for my safety but in English English you could just as well express they feared for me which means they were afraid of me

I think I'd noticed this early on since my kindergarten teacher was English. Just thought about the frozen expression and wondered how old the other usage is
Eigi gegnir þat at segja at bók nøkkur er hreinferðug eðr ønnur spelluð því at vandliga ok dáliga eru bœkr ritnar ok annat kunnum vér eigi um þœr at dœma

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Re: Discussion Group

Postby Linguaphile » 2020-05-14, 14:23

Gormur wrote:In NAE one could say I feared for my safety but in English English you could just as well express they feared for me which means they were afraid of me

I don't know how it is used in England, but for myself (American English from the west coast), I'd understand they feared for me to mean they were worried about me, i.e. afraid of what might happen to me. It does not mean they are afraid of me. It's an expression of concern for the person "feared for".
It's a similar idea in the expressions I feared for my safety or I feared for my life. It doesn't mean that my safety (or my life) scared me; it means I was afraid of losing my safety (or my life). I was afraid of what might happen that could endanger my safety or my life. So in all of those uses, it expresses great concern for the person or thing "feared for".

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Re: Discussion Group

Postby linguoboy » 2020-05-14, 16:53

Gormur wrote:In NAE one could say I feared for my safety but in English English you could just as well express they feared for me which means they were afraid of me

The OED doesn't recognise this usage. It glosses "fear for" as "To be apprehensive about, to fear something happening to".
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Re: Discussion Group

Postby Gormur » 2020-05-15, 16:08

Maybe it's classed as informal over there. Because on BBC shows I hear fear for used like afraid of and I clearly remember it from my English teacher who was my kindergarten teacher

Maybe a UKer will show up to clear this up :)
Eigi gegnir þat at segja at bók nøkkur er hreinferðug eðr ønnur spelluð því at vandliga ok dáliga eru bœkr ritnar ok annat kunnum vér eigi um þœr at dœma

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Re: Discussion Group

Postby linguoboy » 2020-07-23, 19:55

Trying to translate a sentence from Catalan into English and I can't decide between two slightly different versions.

Original: La salsa pebrada devia ser una de les salses més emblemàtiques de la cuina medieval catalana.
Version 1: Pepper sauce must be one of the most emblematic sauces of mediaeval Catalan cuisine.
Version 2: Pepper sauce must be one of the sauces most emblematic of mediaeval Catalan cuisine.

I suppose "...one of mediaeval Catalan cuisine's most emblematic sauces" is in the running as well.
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Re: Discussion Group

Postby Osias » 2020-07-24, 13:45

This is the kind of thing I would ask for you what difference does it make.
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Re: Discussion Group

Postby linguoboy » 2020-07-24, 14:45

Osias wrote:This is the kind of thing I would ask for you what difference does it make.

In terms of meaning, I don't perceive a difference. It's more about the flow of the sentence.

(And just to clarify, the question is directed at other fluent speakers of English--though if one version is more comprehensible to non-native speakers than others, I'd be interested in knowing that, too.)
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Re: Discussion Group

Postby Linguaphile » 2020-07-24, 15:12

linguoboy wrote:
Osias wrote:This is the kind of thing I would ask for you what difference does it make.

In terms of meaning, I don't perceive a difference. It's more about the flow of the sentence.

(And just to clarify, the question is directed at other fluent speakers of English--though if one version is more comprehensible to non-native speakers than others, I'd be interested in knowing that, too.)

I don't perceive a difference either. Personally, I think I would tend to use Version 1. (I think I could have answered this question better if you'd asked "how would you translate La salsa pebrada devia ser una de les salses més emblemàtiques de la cuina medieval catalana"? Then I would have answered with whatever came most naturally. It's kind of like when you stare at a word for too long - after seeing the two choices, I can no longer be sure of which I would I normally say in a natural setting.) They both sound fine.
I would also tend to prefer the spelling medieval. I'm curious, why do you prefer mediaeval? Do you use it because you like the way it better-preserves the Latin spelling?

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Re: Discussion Group

Postby Car » 2020-07-24, 16:27

linguoboy wrote:Trying to translate a sentence from Catalan into English and I can't decide between two slightly different versions.

Original: La salsa pebrada devia ser una de les salses més emblemàtiques de la cuina medieval catalana.
Version 1: Pepper sauce must be one of the most emblematic sauces of mediaeval Catalan cuisine.
Version 2: Pepper sauce must be one of the sauces most emblematic of mediaeval Catalan cuisine.

I suppose "...one of mediaeval Catalan cuisine's most emblematic sauces" is in the running as well.

Definitely 1 or 3. Does 2 really sound natural to you?
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Re: Discussion Group

Postby Linguaphile » 2020-07-24, 16:38

Car wrote:
linguoboy wrote:Trying to translate a sentence from Catalan into English and I can't decide between two slightly different versions.

Original: La salsa pebrada devia ser una de les salses més emblemàtiques de la cuina medieval catalana.
Version 1: Pepper sauce must be one of the most emblematic sauces of mediaeval Catalan cuisine.
Version 2: Pepper sauce must be one of the sauces most emblematic of mediaeval Catalan cuisine.

I suppose "...one of mediaeval Catalan cuisine's most emblematic sauces" is in the running as well.

Definitely 1 or 3. Does 2 really sound natural to you?

Yes, but formal, such as from an academic context. In conversation it might sound a bit pretentious. Actually, in an academic context the "must be" part would be a bit odd, to be honest. In that context it would be more natural to simply say "is" (or "was"). But with that, we're starting to move away from the Catalan original ("devia ser").
I think this is why I prefer #1. (Or #3, which I agree is also good.)

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Re: Discussion Group

Postby linguoboy » 2020-07-24, 16:57

Car wrote:
linguoboy wrote:Trying to translate a sentence from Catalan into English and I can't decide between two slightly different versions.

Original: La salsa pebrada devia ser una de les salses més emblemàtiques de la cuina medieval catalana.
Version 1: Pepper sauce must be one of the most emblematic sauces of mediaeval Catalan cuisine.
Version 2: Pepper sauce must be one of the sauces most emblematic of mediaeval Catalan cuisine.

I suppose "...one of mediaeval Catalan cuisine's most emblematic sauces" is in the running as well.

Definitely 1 or 3. Does 2 really sound natural to you?

Yup. It's not that unusual for English-speakers to displace heavy noun modifiers like this. (At least as common as it is for German-speakers to use heavy pre-noun inserts.) For instance, this always happens with the adjective likely when qualified by an adverb and governing an infinitive:

"It's reserved for the person least likely to try to kill me today."
"Tinder also edged out OKCupid as the app most likely to solicit online harassment from suitors."

Unqualified and governing a prepositional phrase, it precedes the noun while the phrase follows:

"Your volunteering might help us see you as a likely person for that role?

Emblematic is generally qualified with a prepositional phrase which follows the noun. The adjective can remain before the noun or it can follow as well, which is more likely when it's further qualified. (For instance, if the modifying adverb of degree were "extremely" instead of "most", there would be no question about displacing the adjective.)
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