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azhong wrote:It is a coincidence that I am reading The Great Gatsby, a novel usually said with a theme related to so-called the American dream.
vijayjohn wrote:We had to read this novel in high school. I hated it. I don't think I will ever learn to appreciate F. Scott Fitzgerald for criticizing the wealthy while being guilty for engaging in exactly the same behavior as the people he criticized.
azhong wrote:It sounds that what you dislike is not the novel but more the author?
Anyhow, I agree with your although I just finished chapter one so far, and I don't know what life Fitzgerald led in his later years.
But I know fortune luxury life is very... magnetic?
And we are all made of iron. (That's also why we are all good at criticizing people coldly. ^_^)
mōdgethanc wrote:The thought came to mind that no one is in a better position to critique it than someone who lived that lifestyle and also his life wasn't perfectly easy either, but it's not a hill I want to die on.
vijayjohn wrote:mōdgethanc wrote:The thought came to mind that no one is in a better position to critique it than someone who lived that lifestyle and also his life wasn't perfectly easy either, but it's not a hill I want to die on.
vijayjohn wrote:But I know luxury life is very... magnetic?
I'm not completely sure whether I understood correctly.
vijayjohn wrote:在晚年他对酒精成瘾了, 后来一醉醒就因为心肌梗死的关系而死。
我不完全确定看懂了。 你的意思是有钱人的生活非常静态吗? 我认为, 有钱人的生活太无聊了。 穷人的经验又有意思得多, 又重要得多。
azhong wrote:vijayjohn wrote:mōdgethanc wrote:The thought came to mind that no one is in a better position to critique it than someone who lived that lifestyle and also his life wasn't perfectly easy either, but it's not a hill I want to die on.
I have a different understanding in mōdgethanc's post now after I've read it again but I am still not fully confident I've understood it correctly.
Does mōdgethanc mean simething like, let me rephrase in my words:
That Nick/Fitzgerald can criticize Gatzby precisely shows exactly he leads the same life as Gatzby does.
And also, Fitzgerald himself didn't lead a morally perfect life, then how can he criticize the unperfectness of some other people's life?
But, at any rate, to criticize people is not something I wanna do. (Or the rich life they led is not one I wanna lead?)
Forget me having phrased it in that awkward way while stupidly thinking it literarily creative,
and let me phrase it again:
I agree with you it's not conscientious that , for example, you criticize people that they should not cross a red light when you yourself do that later, too.
But I think the rich people's life is attractive; most people effort for it and can't assist the attempt of luxury life. And that's perhaps why Fitzgerald led his life that way.( I intended to use "magnetic" to mean "attractive"...)
The rest sentences are all understandable and most of them are fine.
I read that Fitzgerald was commented "talented but not creative",
which I think means his works are great but he didn't write a lot of works. It's quite painful for a writer not able to write out anything he himself satisfied with. Perhaps that's why he got addicted in alcohol later...a poor great writer...
vijayjohn wrote:No, I think he's saying almost the opposite:
Fitzgerald lived the same life as Gatsby.
Fitzgerald knew how bad that life was.
That's why Fitzgerald criticized Gatsby's life.
Fitzgerald also had a hard life.
In his later years, he was an alcoholic. He became sober but then died of a heart attack.
azhong wrote:A question following the quotation then, please: What does mōdgethanc mean by saying "it's not a hill I want to die on"? Does it mean "I don't want to live that way (as Getsby and Fitzgerald did)"?
azhong wrote:To begin with, I want to thank you, Vijay, for having carefully corrected all my unnatural usages. It's very precious to me.
A question following the quotation then, please: What does mōdgethanc mean by saying "it's not a hill I want to die on"? Does it mean "I don't want to live that way (as Getsby and Fitzgerald did)"?
(In fact I am confused now: Did Fitzgerald lead his luxury life before or after finishing the novel?
Was Fitzgerald born with a silver spoon in his mouth?)
P.S. I might have misled you for I am not sure what you mean in your sentence:In his later years, he was an alcoholic. He became sober but then died of a heart attack.
Do you mean he quitted drinking for a period of time first then died one day? In Chinese, to quit drinking is 戒酒。
Or do you mean he had got drunk the previous night and then made himself feel better by drinking some tea or coffee the next morning (and then died that afternoon or something)? To relieve the hangover is 醒酒 or 解酒.
azhong wrote:Oh, I see, and thank you for the information about Fitzgerald and language corrections again, both very valuable to me. Btw, is "precious" too...heavy, too rich for being used in this situation?
Also, when you say: "What I take issue with is that he never admitted that he was just as bad as Gatsby," you are actually not valuing his work but, instead, him, am I right?
That can surely be a reason to dislike a person. You might consider him...false -- can the word mean "dishonest and insincere"? I remember I've read a phrase "false laughters" in some Harry Potter Chapter.
(BTW again, my life experience has told me that it really needs some courage and self-confidence out of self-understading so as to be sincere. But not all people own these abilities...)
And then, just curious to ask, you didn't mention why you dislike the novel yet if you'd like to share it. I'm not questioning you but just having a chat, anyway. Just a guess: Maybe you dislike it just because you dislike its author in advance? It's also acceptable if so. In Chinese we have an idiom to describe the psychological phenomenon, phrasing from a different angle, though.
愛屋及烏
(Love house toward crow)
For I love the house, I expand my love toward the crow nesting under the eaves although crows are considered birds that would bring bad luck. Note that there is a rhythm between 屋 and 烏. There is also another idiom expressing the same feeling, which I will l leave to you without explanation for now:
惜花連盆,惜子連孫
vijayjohn wrote:No, I'm taking issue with both, because I think the work is connected to the person who wrote it. I think he could have openly confessed to what he did, and it would have made a big difference, but he didn't do that. Instead, he wrote a fictional story about someone who was not very different from him.
...I don't like the novel because I think the author could have written something better. I think instead of writing a story criticizing the behavior of a fictional person, he could have written a criticism of himself. I think that would have been much more interesting.
vijayjohn wrote:I think "false" can mean that, but here, I'd be more likely to use either "fake" or "ingenuine" ("fake" is definitely a harsher word to use here).
azhong wrote:Another writing practice of mine here, though I am going to say something seriously basing on your wrords quoted.
I don't know how to say the term 修行人 in English.
It refers to those who spend their lives being a monk pursuing not fortune or fame or any material-based happiness but, instead, desiring to have a peaceful mind at any moment by knowing the skills of taming their hearts which were as wild as untamed horses. Maybe hermits? I feel you have that tendency.
My college major was engineering, not literature, but as far as I know, what you have said is not a typical way to value a work. Usually the comments for a work would be on it's organicness, the characters carved, the plot designed, the construction used, the concepts conveyed, etc. It's surely true the quality of an auther's heart would have great influence on their work; however, I think the judgement would be still mainly focused on the work itself by seeing a work as an independent object from the author. For some schools informations of the author can be a support, a reference.
But you seem to consider it highly dominate that if a person's decent, honest, sincere, etc.
One opinion of you is interesting to me: Fitzgerald intended to write a novel, but the reason you dislike it is that you think he should write a biography. How can you say i don't bakke my cake well just because you expect me to make a pizza?
I think your thought has spotlighted your belief on the importance of being a nice, moral man. I don't think it's a proper way to judge a literature work but, as a human, I do agree with you. In fact, I can't agree with you more.
I was actually once a "pre-monk", voluntarily, and have lived in a temple for about three years at my age around thirty, and that experience has rebuilt my concepts and my later life.
Since your ancestors were from India, I am quite curious now about your belief in religion, and how does it give influence to you.
vijayjohn wrote: (I assume that's a typo, but you seem to appreciate it when I point things like this out to you. I'm sorry if I'm being annoying by pointing it out).
There are children in some parts of the world who can't even get water that is safe to drink.
(I'm not quite sure what you mean by "organicness")... (I'm not sure what you mean by "construction," either)
But you seem to consider it highly dominate that if a person's decent, honest, sincere, etc.
I'm not sure what you mean by "dominate," and I would write "whether a person is decent, honest, sincere, etc."
azhong wrote:vijayjohn wrote: (I assume that's a typo, but you seem to appreciate it when I point things like this out to you. I'm sorry if I'm being annoying by pointing it out).
Annoying me by helping me? Not a way will lead towards there.
"Thank you" is what I should say before saying sorry.
I have been lately replying on my cellphone and thus easier to have typoes. However, you can just ignore them if it's obviously a word that you think I can surely spell, so as to save your time and energy.
There are children in some parts of the world who can't even get water that is safe to drink.
I guess you witnessed that on your trip back India? It's really sad...
I try to explain with my imperfect English, though I am not very clear what it means, either.
Being organic of a work is that the work itself is a complete world. The plots sufficiently support one another and they move forward reasonablly. It can convince the readers that the result is possible to happen in the situation the novel talks about. All the clues needed can be found in the story itself -- Well, I don't know how to explain it, either. I give it up.
"Construction" might be easier to explain. Or should I use the word "form"? There are one-line, two-line and multi-line stories. There are narration, flashback, and narration interpaused, etc. They show the design and practice of the writer. I believe you know these.
But you seem to consider it highly dominate that if a person's decent, honest, sincere, etc.
I'm not sure what you mean by "dominate," and I would write "whether a person is decent, honest, sincere, etc."
"more important than anything else", that's what I want to say. "Reign"?
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