UniLang

(IMO) Austria won because the song was the exact oposite of what people expect of a drag act. We've had drag acts in Eurovision before: Verka Serduchka, DQ, Sestre, and appart from Verka, they weren't much successful. Their songs were gimmicky, trashy and caricatural. Conchita did everything the opposite: the song is a ballad, very James Bond style, the staging was perfect and very effective (the moment when the fire wings appear in the background is wow), the singing was excelent, the lyrics and the message of the song, Conchita was looking very diva-like and glamorous.
For winning Eurovision you need to have the whole package and Austria and the Netherlands are the countries that had the package this year. Lowering the Conchita's act down to just her beard is looking at things very superficially and watching the contest with only one eye and ear.

Btw, Rise like a phoenix is number 1 on the Russian iTunes chart

kibo wrote:Btw, Rise like a phoenix is number 1 on the Russian iTunes chart

All the Russian school kids were asked to download it for their lesson on Western European decadence.

Hoogstwaarschijnlijk wrote:

Sol Invictus wrote:As I heard it was not the performance that was booed, but voting for them,

What's the difference? We were supposed to vote for songs and performances, you know, not for which countries politics we liked best.

Major international events are seen as chance to show off by many countries, especially less democratic ones. Eurovision is no exception and Russia was very eager to win before it succeeded to do it. Besides Eurovision is known for political block voting. And booing when the results are announced does not affect the result.

linguoboy wrote:Several people referred to the points awarded Russia by its neighbours as the "please don't invade us" vote.

That's BS (unless it goes against the usual voting pattern in some countries) most of their neighbours have Russian populations voting for Russia + in countries friendly to Russia jury too might feel inclined to vote for them too

Ludwig Whitby wrote:Political Russia wasn't in the show. Cultural Russia was. And it got booed.

It got booed for deeds of political Russia, unless you think that chauvinism, warmongering and homophobia are cultural, rather than ideological, things (Russian televote placed Austria third, so it doesn't really look that it's ordinary Russians who dislike the results)

I don't know what was in the minds of the booers, but it came across as an attack on all Russians, not the political Russia.

If somebody constantly worries about having enemies and being attacked, no wonder that everything seems like an attack

Eurovision is a singing contest, not a gay-rights group and it was in fact already held in a number of gay-unfriendly countries

Like it or not, but most of the fanbase, who visit the concerts are gay

This will make Russia listen to their opinions even less. Russians already blame them for pretty much everything. The last thing they need is to be labeled as anti-Russians and Russia-haters, which they inevitably will.

Yeah, that totally makes a case for being nice to Russia. Besides this does not follow logic - they are already blamed for everything, so how is this going to make them even more villainous?

Varislintu wrote:It's been complained a few years now that the betting favourite always seems to win.

This year they were betting on Armenia to win, though... IMHO this happens because jury is influenced by all the talk on who should win

Russian politician Zhirinovsky, leader of the Liberal Democratic Party of Russia, comments on Conchita's performance:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldiGK8PwOqM
Zhyrinovsky: It's the end of Europe, it's rotten! They don't have men and women anymore. They have "it".

That very politician in 90s, running his election campaign in a gay club in St.Petersburg:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=it1E12ZlFdM
Guy: Infact we have a special room for that.
Zhirinovsky: Let's go, open, open!

If we are going down that path, this Marios guy here is saying that this drag performance is worse than child molestation, because at least child molesters don't do what they do because they crave attention.

Going back to Eurovision: some random comments.

1) Did anyone like Belarus' performance? I kind of liked our entry

2) None of the countries whose languages I'm learning participated this year (no Serbia no Turkey ), so I could be objective for a change.

3) I seem to be consistently liking the Greek entries. Is it the language? Stop, I shouldn't let it develop into a wanderlust.

4) Conchita is a cutie. Seriously, guys. The beard looks good on her

Sol Invictus wrote:

This will make Russia listen to their opinions even less. Russians already blame them for pretty much everything. The last thing they need is to be labeled as anti-Russians and Russia-haters, which they inevitably will.

Yeah, that totally makes a case for being nice to Russia. Besides this does not follow logic - they are already blamed for everything, so how is this going to make them even more villainous?

It's not about convincing the Russian government or elite - their main concern is holding onto their own power. It's about avoiding alienating the average Russian person. All this booing succeeded in doing was shift the center of debate to the right, not make Russians reflect on their treatment of homosexuals.

And are you guys sure it's about homosexuality and not the Ukraine issue? Russia was not really better for homosexuals last Eurovision but they weren't booed.

voron wrote:Going back to Eurovision: some random comments.

1) Did anyone like Belarus' performance? I kind of liked our entry

2) None of the countries whose languages I'm learning participated this year (no Serbia no Turkey ), so I could be objective for a change.

1) I did, the song is catchy and Teo's dance is funny, although the lyrics are silly He should have sung the Belarusian version
2) There was Montenegro though (Macedonia's entry also has a version in Serbian).
The Balkan countries should return next year, Vienna is close and the accomodation is definitely cheaper than in the nordic countries (that was our main reason for withdrawing). I'll try to go next year too (if i can manage to get the tickets).

Saim wrote:And are you guys sure it's about homosexuality and not the Ukraine issue? Russia was not really better for homosexuals last Eurovision but they weren't booed.

There is no way we can tell what was going trough their minds. Either one or both seem likely triggers (IMO it probably was both). Olympics brought Russia's anti-gay legislation to everyone's attention and the concerts are attended by many gays. Either way it would seem to me that ordinary person would remember they were not booed in the previous years and start to think why they were booed, instead of concluding that Europe just dislikes Russia, while the politicians probably would be eager to explain it differently (but I asked to somebody who reads Russian media and was told that they are angry it happened, but do not offer any explanation)

voron wrote:Going back to Eurovision: some random comments.

1) Did anyone like Belarus' performance? I kind of liked our entry

2) None of the countries whose languages I'm learning participated this year (no Serbia no Turkey ), so I could be objective for a change.

3) I seem to be consistently liking the Greek entries. Is it the language? Stop, I shouldn't let it develop into a wanderlust.

4) Conchita is a cutie. Seriously, guys. The beard looks good on her

1. Wasn't bad, but most songs this year were similar and Belarus did not stand out
3. The song was good (but also not very different from all the rest)
4. +1

Sol Invictus wrote:Either way it would seem to me that ordinary person would remember they were not booed in the previous years and start to think why they were booed,

Don't hold your breath.

Honestly, bringing politics in a song contest is immensely sad, especially if that has to be in the form of hateful boos rather than some constructive message. And in my opinion you do nothing else but reinforce the idea that "the West hates us".

Right, maybe I should substituted "ordinary" with "person able to reason and see causes, instead of assuming everyone blindly hates them"

Ludwig Whitby wrote:I'm cursed with always seeing issues from two perspectives at once. In real life I'm constantly trying to explain the 'Western' perspective, and on Unilang the 'Eastern' perspective. It can get really frustrating at times. Sorry when I sometimes come across too harsh.

No worries, you always present arguments, that's what matters.

I also think the booing was probably both about anti-homosexual laws in Russia and the Ukraine situation. I'd love to read from people who booed what they were thinking. And do they regret it?

Ludwig Whitby wrote:You guys are progressive, smart, educated people. Why can't you stop trying to escalate the conflict? The politicians and the media are trying so hard to pit you guys against one another. Don't let them, and hope that the smart and educated people in Russia won't do that as well. (Also, try not to alienate the 'neutrals'; making them side with Putin is the last thing you want. These kind og things will make it harder and harder for them to remain neutral and will force them to pick sides, either the side of their country or the side of the foreign countries hostile to their country. Guess what side they'll pick?)

You know, sometimes I feel like this is a kind of "insulting" way to talk about Russians, too. It makes it sound like they have such fragile egos that even booing can provoke them to simplistic reactions and dire retaliation.

Sol Invictus wrote:Right, maybe I should substituted "ordinary" with "person able to reason and see causes, instead of assuming everyone blindly hates them"

Let's be honest, not that booing is exactly a good way to present yourself as someone who wants to reason.

I found a comment by one person who might have booed:

Sorry, folks, but basic human rights and national sovereignty trump being polite to teeny boppers any day of the week. This is a unique opportunity for the people of Europe to send a direct message to the Russian people that their government’s activities will isolate them from the international community they’ve only just become a part of. I will be booing as loud as I can at the final tonight.

(In the comment on this.)

For this person it seems to have been both the recent laws about homosexuality and the Ukraine situation.

IpseDixit wrote:Let's be honest, not that booing is exactly a good way to present yourself as someone who wants to reason.

What is a good way to present opposition? Go to protest meetings in your country that Russian media will never report about? Write in media Russian people will never read?

Also - isn't this a bit exaggerated? It is not like they were yelling anti-Russian slogans or being violent, booing is pretty mild form of protest, which Russia might well have ignored

Sol Invictus wrote:Right, maybe I should substituted "ordinary" with "person able to reason and see causes, instead of assuming everyone blindly hates them"

That's the thing, most people across the world don't go out of their way to inform themselves about international events. This is basically true of every country I've had much contact with, so I imagine it's true of Russia as well. That's why you should keep in mind that a pretty large portion of Russian media is controlled by the government, and they're the ones who get to define the centre of the debate. That is to say, they don't define Russian people's opinions but they do set up the spectrum within which the "mainstream" voices vary - that's why I don't particularly like giving them free propaganda to help move that spectrum towards the right.

Let's think about what we want. We want Russia to 1) respect gay rights (I want this too!) 2) respect Ukraine's sovereignty (I want this too!). To actually achieve this we have to be conscious of the discourse we use - just yelling at Russia isn't going to help anyone. We have to be strategic.

Varislintu wrote:You know, sometimes I feel like this is a kind of "insulting" way to talk about Russians, too. It makes it sound like they have such fragile egos that even booing can provoke them to simplistic reactions and dire retaliation.

It's not just Russians. People in general do tend to have fragile egos. Obviously there's lots of variation but the overal trend is that people aren't very receptive to your ideas if they feel you're insulting their national identity. You can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar, as they say.

OMG, is there a topic without Russia?

I haven't listened to Conchita's song and I haven't watched Eurovision but I know that some people are going to organize a march of bearded men and women in Moscow.

And there was a flash mob in the internet - "Show that you're not Conchita", men posted their pictures showing that they do shave. Some media persons took part in it.

Lada wrote:Conchita

What about booing?

Sol Invictus wrote:

Lada wrote:Conchita

What about booing?

Why do you care so much about it? Personally I don't care.