Eurovision Song Contest 2014 - Copenhagen, Denmark

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Re: Eurovision Song Contest 2014 - Copenhagen, Denmark

Postby Ludwig Whitby » 2014-05-12, 19:16

Here's a practical guide for Westerners.

Song that Serbs should boo:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zr8oXi1T-fU
A Croat praising the Holocaust, celebrating the mass-murders of Serbs and calling for new murders and the return of fascim.

Song that Serbs shouldn't boo, despite the fact that the Serbs in Croatia (those who weren't ethnically cleansed) are banned from using the Cyrillic script. Croatian singer singing live in Belgrade about a country-girl moving to the big city:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=heJQAckM-eI

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Re: Eurovision Song Contest 2014 - Copenhagen, Denmark

Postby Hoogstwaarschijnlijk » 2014-05-12, 19:20

Sol Invictus wrote:As I heard it was not the performance that was booed, but voting for them,


What's the difference? We were supposed to vote for songs and performances, you know, not for which countries politics we liked best.
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Re: Eurovision Song Contest 2014 - Copenhagen, Denmark

Postby Ludwig Whitby » 2014-05-12, 19:25

Hoogstwaarschijnlijk wrote:
Sol Invictus wrote:As I heard it was not the performance that was booed, but voting for them,


What's the difference? We were supposed to vote for songs and performances, you know, not for which countries politics we liked best.

Not to mention that there actually were whistles at the end of their performance both in the semi-final and in the grand final.

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Re: Eurovision Song Contest 2014 - Copenhagen, Denmark

Postby Saim » 2014-05-12, 20:10

Varislintu wrote:Well, you have to admit Russia has pretty much said a much more severe 'fuck you' to homosexuals.


All of Russia?

Sol Invictus wrote:Russia most likely got boobed for its politics, not because people dislike Russians


What do the Tolmachevy Sisters have to do with Russia's politics?

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Re: Eurovision Song Contest 2014 - Copenhagen, Denmark

Postby Varislintu » 2014-05-12, 20:20

Ludwig Whitby wrote:Sure. But so did Serbia to Albanians and Albanian Kosovo to Serbs and Croatia to Serbs and Serbia to Croats etc... There is a difference between politicians and ordinary people.


But are you saying you think they booed at the girls personally? I don't think so, why on earth would they? Of course it was at Russia, who was naturally also watching the show.

Ludwig Whitby wrote:In my opinion, it is worse. They're minors. They can't even vote and they are being booed and being prevented from winning a singing contest because of something their government did.


Prevented from winning? Hey, Russia's entry wasn't that good. :P Personally I found it surprisingly bad (for Russia). Apparently they were not chosen by the Russian public, it was just decided from above that they were the entry this year. Maybe they were chosen in the hopes that people wouldn't dare boo at young women. Or they were just someone's cousins. Still, I think the fact that Russia scored so high shows how well Russia can do in this competition just on inertia, no matter what kind of song they send. :P

Ludwig Whitby wrote:
Varislintu wrote:If the USA were to take part and they were booed after having once again done something cruel abroad, would you think that would be shocking as well? I don't think I'd be very outraged.

Yes. I differentiate between singers and politicians.


I really don't think that the booing was at the singers. And true, I guess I don't differentiate as strictly between cultural events and politics.

Ludwig Whitby wrote:
Varislintu wrote:I don't know, I just don't personally think booing is necessarily that bad, if done in moderation so it doesn't actually ruin someone's performance or impede the event. EDIT: And as long as the reasons can be traced back to something non-personal.

Booing someone on the basis of their ethnicity and nationality is bad.


I'm trying to imagine if Finland did something jerkish internationally, and people would boo our entry in ESC. To be honest, I'd understand. In fact, I'd hope our leaders would take a lesson on how their actions are making us look.

Ludwig Whitby wrote:So, those girls shouldn't win because of something their politicians did? This is a singing-contest, you know? It's not a government-policies contest.


What's this about winning? Are you talking about something more than the booing?
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Re: Eurovision Song Contest 2014 - Copenhagen, Denmark

Postby Varislintu » 2014-05-12, 20:27

Saim wrote:
Varislintu wrote:Well, you have to admit Russia has pretty much said a much more severe 'fuck you' to homosexuals.


All of Russia?


Jebus Christ, the moment someone stops adding disclaimers... No, I mean political Russia, with the laws pertaining to homosexuals.

It didn't even occur to me that someone might interpret the booing as being against the twins. But sure, it leaves that open to interpretation. It wasn't a classy thing to do. I, personally, would not have booed. I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings. I guess we can conclude that Serbs have better manners, I'm fine with that interpretation. But I don't think it was a prejudiced thing. It had clear political reasons (anti-gay laws and Russia's actions in Ukraine, probably), it was grass roots level graffiti by vocal cords, commenting on politics in a public space. :hmm:
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Re: Eurovision Song Contest 2014 - Copenhagen, Denmark

Postby Levike » 2014-05-12, 20:40

One of my friends posted this on Facebook.

Just couldn't resist. :lol:

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Re: Eurovision Song Contest 2014 - Copenhagen, Denmark

Postby Weerwolf » 2014-05-12, 20:41

Varislintu wrote:Prevented from winning? Hey, Russia's entry wasn't that good. :P Personally I found it surprisingly bad (for Russia). Apparently they were not chosen by the Russian public, it was just decided from above that they were the entry this year. Maybe they were chosen in the hopes that people wouldn't dare boo at young women.

Conchita Wurst was not even the choice of the Austrians, it was also 'decided from above', maybe he was chosen to provoke the public and the ORF had a call from the organisators that their entry is going to win the show if they send him. "Der ORF verzichte kommendes Jahr auf eine Entscheidungsshow für den internationalen Liederwettbewerb, berichtet das Magazin "TV-Media". Anstelle nominiere der Sender den heimischen Vertreter in Eigenregie. Demnach soll Travestiekünstler Tom Neuwirth alias Conchita Wurst am Song Contest teilnehmen, der diesmal von 6. bis 10. Mai im dänischen Kopenhagen stattfindet. Mit welchem Lied Conchita Wurst ins Rennen geschickt werden soll, sei noch offen."
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Re: Eurovision Song Contest 2014 - Copenhagen, Denmark

Postby Varislintu » 2014-05-12, 20:49

Weerwolf wrote:
Varislintu wrote:Prevented from winning? Hey, Russia's entry wasn't that good. :P Personally I found it surprisingly bad (for Russia). Apparently they were not chosen by the Russian public, it was just decided from above that they were the entry this year. Maybe they were chosen in the hopes that people wouldn't dare boo at young women.

Conchita Wurst was not even the choice of the Austrians, it was also 'decided from above', maybe he was chosen to provoke the public and the ORF had a call from the organisators that their entry is going to win the show if they send him. "Der ORF verzichte kommendes Jahr auf eine Entscheidungsshow für den internationalen Liederwettbewerb, berichtet das Magazin "TV-Media". Anstelle nominiere der Sender den heimischen Vertreter in Eigenregie. Demnach soll Travestiekünstler Tom Neuwirth alias Conchita Wurst am Song Contest teilnehmen, der diesmal von 6. bis 10. Mai im dänischen Kopenhagen stattfindet. Mit welchem Lied Conchita Wurst ins Rennen geschickt werden soll, sei noch offen."
http://www.nachrichten.at/nachrichten/k ... 16,1192384


Hey, I wasn't saying that Russia's entry shouldn't have been chosen from above. :nope: I was saying that that's probably why it was so bland and conservative. (From a country that previously gave us for example Dima Bilan and that song about "Mama"!) The poor girls' dresses didn't even fit them properly. And what was with the hair gimmick and that plexistaff? The whole thing felt exactly like a bureaucratic product, rather than something with artistic burn. (We can see this type of entry a lot on ESC, every year.)

If Austria managed to pick Conchita "from above", and have it shoot like a straight arrow into the the heart of the popular vote (it would have gotten even more points from just the televote, without jury influence), then good for them!
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Re: Eurovision Song Contest 2014 - Copenhagen, Denmark

Postby linguoboy » 2014-05-12, 20:53

Varislintu wrote:Maybe they were chosen in the hopes that people wouldn't dare boo at young women.

Or rather because Europeans booing perky blonde Slavic girls makes for great propaganda footage back home.

Varislintu wrote:Or they were just someone's cousins. Still, I think the fact that Russia scored so high shows how well Russia can do in this competition just on inertia, no matter what kind of song they send. :P

Several people referred to the points awarded Russia by its neighbours as the "please don't invade us" vote.
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Re: Eurovision Song Contest 2014 - Copenhagen, Denmark

Postby Ludwig Whitby » 2014-05-12, 20:55

Varislintu wrote:
Ludwig Whitby wrote:Sure. But so did Serbia to Albanians and Albanian Kosovo to Serbs and Croatia to Serbs and Serbia to Croats etc... There is a difference between politicians and ordinary people.


But are you saying you think they booed at the girls personally? I don't think so, why on earth would they? Of course it was at Russia, who was naturally also watching the show.

They booed at them and at everyone who gave Russia 12 points and at the Russian who presented the votes of Russia. Political Russia wasn't in the show.


Varislintu wrote:
Ludwig Whitby wrote:
Varislintu wrote:I don't know, I just don't personally think booing is necessarily that bad, if done in moderation so it doesn't actually ruin someone's performance or impede the event. EDIT: And as long as the reasons can be traced back to something non-personal.

Booing someone on the basis of their ethnicity and nationality is bad.


I'm trying to imagine if Finland did something jerkish internationally, and people would boo our entry in ESC. To be honest, I'd understand. In fact, I'd hope our leaders would take a lesson on how their actions are making us look.

Not everyone is like you.
Varislintu wrote:
Ludwig Whitby wrote:So, those girls shouldn't win because of something their politicians did? This is a singing-contest, you know? It's not a government-policies contest.


What's this about winning? Are you talking about something more than the booing?

Yes. Sol Invictus said that
As I heard it was not the performance that was booed, but voting for them, there's a difference between offending sixteen year olds and not liking any chances of Russia hosting the next year's contest.


Varislintu wrote:Jebus Christ, the moment someone stops adding disclaimers... No, I mean political Russia, with the laws pertaining to homosexuals.

Political Russia wasn't in the show. Cultural Russia was. And it got booed.

Varislintu wrote:It didn't even occur to me that someone might interpret the booing as being against the twins. But sure, it leaves that open to interpretation. It wasn't a classy thing to do.

I interpret it as beeing against Russia and all Russians, even those innocent ones, like the twins.

Varislintu wrote:I, personally, would not have booed. I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings. I guess we can conclude that Serbs have better manners, I'm fine with that interpretation. But I don't think it was a prejudiced thing. It had clear political reasons (anti-gay laws and Russia's actions in Ukraine, probably), it was grass roots level graffiti by vocal cords, commenting on politics in a public space.

Serbs don't have better manners. Serbs have a difficult political history and much more experience in dealing with political conflicts. Differentiating between political and non-political manifestations is a must.
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Re: Eurovision Song Contest 2014 - Copenhagen, Denmark

Postby Varislintu » 2014-05-12, 20:55

Although Russia's entry did make us here at home wonder if the song was a secret cry for help aimed at Japan to come invade Russia and "save them from this madness". :hmm: :hmm: :P :P
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Re: Eurovision Song Contest 2014 - Copenhagen, Denmark

Postby Ludwig Whitby » 2014-05-12, 21:05

linguoboy wrote:
Varislintu wrote:Maybe they were chosen in the hopes that people wouldn't dare boo at young women.

Or rather because Europeans booing perky blonde Slavic girls makes for great propaganda footage back home.

And Russians being enraged over a transgendered person winning the Eurovision is great propaganda in Europe.
linguoboy wrote:
Varislintu wrote:Or they were just someone's cousins. Still, I think the fact that Russia scored so high shows how well Russia can do in this competition just on inertia, no matter what kind of song they send. :P

Several people referred to the points awarded Russia by its neighbours as the "please don't invade us" vote.

Please.
----------------------------------

You guys are progressive, smart, educated people. Why can't you stop trying to escalate the conflict? The politicians and the media are trying so hard to pit you guys against one another. Don't let them, and hope that the smart and educated people in Russia won't do that as well. (Also, try not to alienate the 'neutrals'; making them side with Putin is the last thing you want. These kind og things will make it harder and harder for them to remain neutral and will force them to pick sides, either the side of their country or the side of the foreign countries hostile to their country. Guess what side they'll pick?)

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Re: Eurovision Song Contest 2014 - Copenhagen, Denmark

Postby Varislintu » 2014-05-12, 21:18

Ludwig Whitby wrote:
Varislintu wrote:
Ludwig Whitby wrote:Sure. But so did Serbia to Albanians and Albanian Kosovo to Serbs and Croatia to Serbs and Serbia to Croats etc... There is a difference between politicians and ordinary people.


But are you saying you think they booed at the girls personally? I don't think so, why on earth would they? Of course it was at Russia, who was naturally also watching the show.

They booed at them and at everyone who gave Russia 12 points and at the Russian who presented the votes of Russia. Political Russia wasn't in the show.


Watching the show. Watching the show.

Ludwig Whitby wrote:Not everyone is like you.


Well of course.

Ludwig Whitby wrote:
Varislintu wrote:
Ludwig Whitby wrote:So, those girls shouldn't win because of something their politicians did? This is a singing-contest, you know? It's not a government-policies contest.


What's this about winning? Are you talking about something more than the booing?

Yes. Sol Invictus said that
As I heard it was not the performance that was booed, but voting for them, there's a difference between offending sixteen year olds and not liking any chances of Russia hosting the next year's contest.


Well, if you have a hangar full of gay people and friends of gay people, of course the last thing they want is to have the competition go to a gay-unfriendly country. Could they even attend? Would they feel afraid? We straight people don't even have to think about that. The same core group in the audience probably goes to this thing every year as humanly possible. And for the competition to go to Russia on the basis of a poor song, would mean it wins solely because its friends vote for it on political reasons.

But I don't see how that matters. Those people only got the same 20 votes as all the rest of us.

Ludwig Whitby wrote:Political Russia wasn't in the show. Cultural Russia was. And it got booed.


Again, political Russia was watching.

Ludwig Whitby wrote:
Varislintu wrote:It didn't even occur to me that someone might interpret the booing as being against the twins. But sure, it leaves that open to interpretation. It wasn't a classy thing to do.

I interpret it as beeing against Russia and all Russians, even those innocent ones, like the twins.


In the end I don't know what the booers had in mind. It would be interesting to know, actually. Probably some of them had better intentions than others.

Ludwig Whitby wrote:Serbs don't have better manners. Serbs have a difficult political history and much more experience in dealing with political conflicts. Differentiating between political and non-political manifestations is a must.


It's very rare that the conditions of a live, popular international TV broadcast and a gay-friendly space combines. The people who booed saw an opportunity and took it. I don't think Russia normally has to listen to them or their opinions, or cares to. In a smaller scale event, for example between just two countries, I would also be much more against demonstrating through booing. I can se how that could cause more ill-will and resentment than do any good. I guess I have a hard time applying that idea to such a big, slightly chaotic event like ESC. It feels like if something like this happens in an audience of ordinary people from who knows what countries (like in the ESC), it's not as direct. It's not like the organisers have organised it specifically (if they did I'd condemn it).
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Re: Eurovision Song Contest 2014 - Copenhagen, Denmark

Postby Weerwolf » 2014-05-12, 21:26

Varislintu wrote:Hey, I wasn't saying that Russia's entry shouldn't have been chosen from above. :nope: I was saying that that's probably why it was so bland and conservative. (From a country that previously gave us for example Dima Bilan and that song about "Mama"!) The poor girls' dresses didn't even fit them properly. And what was with the hair gimmick and that plexistaff? The whole thing felt exactly like a bureaucratic product, rather than something with artistic burn. (We can see this type of entry a lot on ESC, every year.)

I thought you were blaming Putin for it. :P
I have a feeling that no matter how good their songs was or how good they sang no other artist had a chance to win the contest, because of Conchita. Her appearance (which had a shock effect like Lordi :mrgreen: ) was more important than any other factor. Of course, I can't say for sure if the votingresults were corrected in favour of getting across a political message through Conchita, but it felt like it was all played down before. In my opinion people should be cautious of saying this was a victory of tolerance as we don't know how many people called for Conchita and the public in Copenhagen booed the Russian performers.
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Re: Eurovision Song Contest 2014 - Copenhagen, Denmark

Postby Varislintu » 2014-05-12, 21:34

Ludwig Whitby wrote:You guys are progressive, smart, educated people. Why can't you stop trying to escalate the conflict? The politicians and the media are trying so hard to pit you guys against one another. Don't let them, and hope that the smart and educated people in Russia won't do that as well. (Also, try not to alienate the 'neutrals'; making them side with Putin is the last thing you want. These kind og things will make it harder and harder for them to remain neutral and will force them to pick sides, either the side of their country or the side of the foreign countries hostile to their country. Guess what side they'll pick?)


I remember that we had a thread here on Unilang once where suddenly it came up in conversation that Russians feel like they are constantly under threat of being invaded by the USA. And the USians here were like "Huh? We barely ever even think about Russia here in the US." :lol: (That's how I remember it anyway.)

Well, that was so long ago that the world is different now already. But that discussion always comes back to my mind when I try to see the situation like you do (I do try, I don't always succeed, but you are so persistent that I'm sure there's something to learn from you). Issues can look so entirely different if just looked at from a different audience/direction.
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Re: Eurovision Song Contest 2014 - Copenhagen, Denmark

Postby Ludwig Whitby » 2014-05-12, 21:41

Varislintu wrote:
Watching the show. Watching the show.

I can't accept that. If you're booing at the show, you're booing at those that participate, not at those who may or may not be watching on the TV. I don't know what was in the minds of the booers, but it came across as an attack on all Russians, not the political Russia.


Varislintu wrote:Well, if you have a hangar full of gay people and friends of gay people, of course the last thing they want is to have the competition go to a gay-unfriendly country. Could they even attend? Would they feel afraid? We straight people don't even have to think about that. The same core group in the audience probably goes to this thing every year as humanly possible. And for the competition to go to Russia on the basis of a poor song, would mean it wins solely because its friends vote for it on political reasons.

Eurovision is a singing contest, not a gay-rights group and it was in fact already held in a number of gay-unfriendly countries, such as Serbia, Azerbaijan, Ukraine and Russia.


Varislintu wrote:
Ludwig Whitby wrote:Serbs don't have better manners. Serbs have a difficult political history and much more experience in dealing with political conflicts. Differentiating between political and non-political manifestations is a must.


It's very rare that the conditions of a live, popular international TV broadcast and a gay-friendly space combines. The people who booed saw an opportunity and took it. I don't think Russia normally has to listen to them or their opinions, or cares to. In a smaller scale event, for example between just two countries, I would also be much more against demonstrating through booing. I can se how that could cause more ill-will and resentment than do any good.

This will make Russia listen to their opinions even less. Russians already blame them for pretty much everything. The last thing they need is to be labeled as anti-Russians and Russia-haters, which they inevitably will.

Varislintu wrote:I guess I have a hard time applying that idea to such a big, slightly chaotic event like ESC. It feels like if something like this happens in an audience of ordinary people from who knows what countries (like in the ESC), it's not as direct. It's not like the organisers have organised it specifically (if they did I'd condemn it).

I know. Incidents such as booing at the opponents anthem happen at big, chaotic events such as sports matches all the time. They are usually followed by an official apology from the organizers and with asking the fans not to do that again in the next match. Such occurances gain very negative comments in our media. Again, not because of 'Serbian manners', but because of our history (that seems to be your future).

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Re: Eurovision Song Contest 2014 - Copenhagen, Denmark

Postby Varislintu » 2014-05-12, 21:42

Weerwolf wrote:I thought you were blaming Putin for it. :P


No, I'm sure the blame is mostly on some dreary middle management man/woman. They manged to turn everyone off the project by managing it so drearily, and then the employed artists did a half-hearted job. :tired:

Weerwolf wrote:I have a feeling that no matter how good their songs was or how good they sang no other artist had a chance to win the contest, because of Conchita. Her appearance (which had a shock effect like Lordi :mrgreen: ) was more important than any other factor. Of course, I can't say for sure if the votingresults were corrected in favour of getting across a political message through Conchita, but it felt like it was all played down before. In my opinion people should be cautious of saying this was a victory of tolerance as we don't know how many people called for Conchita and the public in Copenhagen booed the Russian performers.


It's been complained a few years now that the betting favourite always seems to win. I've heard suspicions that the betting organisors have inside men in the EBU or the company that handles the votes, and that's how they find out who was actually voted for the most in the semi finals. Then that immediately shows in the betting odds. The media reports on the betting odds, and everyone hears about who is the favourite. And voilá, they are a bit primed to vote for that act, because it's already "popular" in their heads. Who knows...
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Re: Eurovision Song Contest 2014 - Copenhagen, Denmark

Postby Ludwig Whitby » 2014-05-12, 21:51

Varislintu wrote:
Ludwig Whitby wrote:You guys are progressive, smart, educated people. Why can't you stop trying to escalate the conflict? The politicians and the media are trying so hard to pit you guys against one another. Don't let them, and hope that the smart and educated people in Russia won't do that as well. (Also, try not to alienate the 'neutrals'; making them side with Putin is the last thing you want. These kind og things will make it harder and harder for them to remain neutral and will force them to pick sides, either the side of their country or the side of the foreign countries hostile to their country. Guess what side they'll pick?)


I remember that we had a thread here on Unilang once where suddenly it came up in conversation that Russians feel like they are constantly under threat of being invaded by the USA. And the USians here were like "Huh? We barely ever even think about Russia here in the US." :lol: (That's how I remember it anyway.)

I'm pretty sure most Americans have never heard of Grenada and that hasn't stopped USA from invading that country. :)

Varislintu wrote:Well, that was so long ago that the world is different now already. But that discussion always comes back to my mind when I try to see the situation like you do (I do try, I don't always succeed, but you are so persistent that I'm sure there's something to learn from you). Issues can look so entirely different if just looked at from a different audience/direction.

I'm cursed with always seeing issues from two perspectives at once. In real life I'm constantly trying to explain the 'Western' perspective, and on Unilang the 'Eastern' perspective. It can get really frustrating at times. Sorry when I sometimes come across too harsh.

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Yasna
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Joined: 2011-09-12, 1:17
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Eurovision Song Contest 2014 - Copenhagen, Denmark

Postby Yasna » 2014-05-12, 22:08

Varislintu wrote:I remember that we had a thread here on Unilang once where suddenly it came up in conversation that Russians feel like they are constantly under threat of being invaded by the USA. And the USians here were like "Huh? We barely ever even think about Russia here in the US." :lol: (That's how I remember it anyway.)

How many Americans gave any serious thought to Vietnam before the U.S. destroyed that country? How many Americans thought regularly about Iraq before it was plunged into chaos by a U.S. invasion? The military industrial complex doesn't rely much on what your everyday American is thinking about.
Ein Buch muß die Axt sein für das gefrorene Meer in uns. - Kafka


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