Eurovision Song Contest 2014 - Copenhagen, Denmark

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Re: Eurovision Song Contest 2014 - Copenhagen, Denmark

Postby Патрислав Андреевич » 2014-05-11, 20:32

voron wrote:
Varislintu wrote:I don't get it. Isn't men dressing as women almost the oldest comedy schtick around? So what's the problem here?

Right. If you read Russian classics from Tolstoy to Chekhov, they would tell about a circus performance featuring among others a bearded woman. So if it was ok 2 centuries back, why does it cause such an ado nowadays? I don't get it.

Yeah, circus... But Eurovision has become circus quite a time ago so everything’s okay. :lol: He’s got a nice voice and the song wasn’t bad, though I think he got many votes for the sake of so called “tolerance.” And it was clear that even the organisers supported him. :|

Other than that, I hope women’s beards won’t become a new fashion, it looks disgusting. :P
But yeah, the obsession with him (on both sides) makes me react like this... :roll:

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Re: Eurovision Song Contest 2014 - Copenhagen, Denmark

Postby JuxtapositionQMan » 2014-05-11, 21:33

xivrox wrote:
voron wrote:
Varislintu wrote:I don't get it. Isn't men dressing as women almost the oldest comedy schtick around? So what's the problem here?

Right. If you read Russian classics from Tolstoy to Chekhov, they would tell about a circus performance featuring among others a bearded woman. So if it was ok 2 centuries back, why does it cause such an ado nowadays? I don't get it.

Yeah, circus... But Eurovision has become circus quite a time ago so everything’s okay. :lol: He’s got a nice voice and the song wasn’t bad, though I think he got many votes for the sake of so called “tolerance.” And it was clear that even the organizers supported him. :|

Other than that, I hope women’s beards won’t become a new fashion, it looks disgusting. :P
But yeah, the obsession with him (on both sides) makes me react like this... :roll:
So, now I'm confused.
This is a bearded woman we're talking about, so is the "he" someone else, or are you just defaulting to "he" because you're not sure of the preferred gender?

Also, expanding on this:
xivrox wrote:He’s got a nice voice and the song wasn’t bad, though I think he got many votes for the sake of so called “tolerance.”
Yeah, there's a point at which it becomes favourance. Sure, allow them on, but voting because of something other than the song kinda defeats the purpose of the thing.
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Re: Eurovision Song Contest 2014 - Copenhagen, Denmark

Postby Yasna » 2014-05-11, 22:09

voron wrote:Right. If you read Russian classics from Tolstoy to Chekhov, they would tell about a circus performance featuring among others a bearded woman. So if it was ok 2 centuries back, why does it cause such an ado nowadays? I don't get it.

Just because some circus directors back then made that show, and some people found it funny, doesn't mean that a bunch of other people didn't find it tasteless. I consider myself pretty tolerant, but I find it hard to look at Conchita.
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Re: Eurovision Song Contest 2014 - Copenhagen, Denmark

Postby Патрислав Андреевич » 2014-05-11, 22:09

JuxtapositionQMan wrote:So, now I'm confused.
This is a bearded woman we're talking about, so is the "he" someone else, or are you just defaulting to "he" because you're not sure of the preferred gender?

No, it’s because it’s a man: Thomas Neuwirth. Conchita Wurst is just his stage appearance. A drag persona, as it’s called. :) But yeah, so many people thought it’s really a woman (me included), so congrats to him for playing his role so well! ;)

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Re: Eurovision Song Contest 2014 - Copenhagen, Denmark

Postby Sol Invictus » 2014-05-12, 0:37

Luís wrote:Well, there was Verka Serduchka in 2007. I don't remember Russia complaining so much when she came in second that year (but then again, she was Ukrainian, not Western).

On top of that she's poking fun at Russians. I don't think homophobia was much of a (mainstream) thing in 2007, though, but of course Ukraine can't be branded the pervert gay Europe

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Re: Eurovision Song Contest 2014 - Copenhagen, Denmark

Postby Vertigo » 2014-05-12, 2:49

xivrox wrote:Yeah, circus... But Eurovision has become circus quite a time ago so everything’s okay. :lol: He’s got a nice voice and the song wasn’t bad, though I think he got many votes for the sake of so called “tolerance.” And it was clear that even the organisers supported him. :|

Other than that, I hope women’s beards won’t become a new fashion, it looks disgusting. :P
But yeah, the obsession with him (on both sides) makes me react like this... :roll:


I think it's legitimate to prefer a song/performance because of its message, otherwise what's the point of having lyrics? Also, it's funny that people are framing Conchita's act as a gimmick, because every ESC performance incorporates gimmicks. If performances are supposed to be completely neutral, maybe contestants should wear masks (or sing behind a screen), wear exactly the same clothes, and not use special effects.

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Re: Eurovision Song Contest 2014 - Copenhagen, Denmark

Postby md0 » 2014-05-12, 5:10

One funny thing today on radio, is that everyone refers to Conchita as a she, but that privilege is not afforded to actual transgender people ever (in local media, that is).

But that seems to go unnoticed by all those annoying, formerly-thought-of-as-serious people on FB and some academic blogs that celebrate this event as something it clearly isn't.
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Re: Eurovision Song Contest 2014 - Copenhagen, Denmark

Postby Varislintu » 2014-05-12, 7:10

So, just to check here. If referring to a man's drag character (I mean referring to him when he's in role, and not his private self), is it better to use "she"? :hmm:

Anyway, I don't understand what people find so disgusting/unpleasant about Conchita. Or bearded women. Bearded women exist for real, and especially women with mustaches. Sometimes I see a woman who does not try to hide her visible facial hair, instead letting it grow as it will, and I'm filled with "Rock on, you wonderful brave woman!" :whoo:

It really doesn't diminish anything from my life that they are like that. If anything it gives me more options, if ever I also develop very visible facial hair.

I loved that movie where Penelope Cruz played a bearded woman, even if it was in a freak show. She had a boyfriend and wasn't very self conscious about the beard. Refreshing message among the endless bombardment we women get from media to feel shaaaaame for visible hairs.
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Re: Eurovision Song Contest 2014 - Copenhagen, Denmark

Postby Levike » 2014-05-12, 7:41

A little facial hair is okay, but a beard like the one Conchita has ...
Let's just say I don't find it aesthetically pleasing.

But then, I don't like bears even when men wear them.

I dislike the Eurovision judges, they should get removed.
I wonder who would have won if only public votes were taken into consideration.
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Re: Eurovision Song Contest 2014 - Copenhagen, Denmark

Postby md0 » 2014-05-12, 7:46

So, just to check here. If referring to a man's drag character (I mean referring to him when he's in role, and not his private self), is it better to use "she"?

It seems reasonable, but it's up to him to clarify how he was to be referred when in character. Not that the media would care.

Anyway, I am quite annoyed by him winning. I haven't watched the contest at all, but now I have to hear the discussion wherever I look into. Internet and radio.
And more than the conservatives (nothing surprising), it's the naive progressives that bother me. That MURICA attitude some try to bring to EU (not Europe, EU). People that think a drag performance in a song contest makes them morally superior to (this year at least) Russia (good ol' red scare again). The same people who if asked will probably say that there's no transphobia within EU's border, or if it existed, it was over last night.
And that's a very general attitude, not just with LGBT rights. Europeans turn a blind eye when it comes to human rights violations within EU (and the closely associated countries, like, say, Ukraine), because they want to sustain this EU-nationalist pride. I mean, ffs, north and south Cyprus have the same anti-conscientious objection laws, but it's only northern Cyprus that's condemned by EU and the UN, and pressured to remove those horrible laws. No-one cares about "European" Cypriots who have to endure the exact same thing. Same with freedom of press, no one talks about the abysmal situation in Greece and Bulgaria. In fact, as far as the average vocal European is concerned, Greeks deserve it.

So my message is: get rid of "progressive" nationalists.
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Re: Eurovision Song Contest 2014 - Copenhagen, Denmark

Postby Sol Invictus » 2014-05-12, 8:13

Varislintu wrote:So, just to check here. If referring to a man's drag character (I mean referring to him when he's in role, and not his private self), is it better to use "she"? :hmm:

I'm just going with what everyone else says, but it makes sense since we are discussing the character not his male self
Levike wrote:I wonder who would have won if only public votes were taken into consideration.

Austria.

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Re: Eurovision Song Contest 2014 - Copenhagen, Denmark

Postby Varislintu » 2014-05-12, 8:14

Levike wrote:I wonder who would have won if only public votes were taken into consideration.


I think it should be possible to calculate that, but I'm too lazy for such a thing. :P EDIT: Oh, Sol Invictus found the answer. EDIT2: But doesn't that table just give the combined results?

Yeah, there's no point in getting all worked up about what Conchita's victory means. (As in, that it means something very big or conclusive.) I liked the song and performance myself because I can like a nice bit of diva drama if the setting is right. And here it was: Conchita's character is that of a humble diva (so she's not annoying), the guy can sing, and can sing this particular song, the stage choreography/design was good, the lyrics were great (for Eurovision -- I refer to Switzerland for an example of really bad English lyrics), the message in the song was good, even clever ("seeking, rather than vengeance, retribution", i.e. there is no evil gay agenda that wants to destroy the world of straights, they don't want vengeance, just retribution for all the crap they've had to deal with).

But I voted for the Netherlands. :)
Last edited by Varislintu on 2014-05-12, 8:54, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Eurovision Song Contest 2014 - Copenhagen, Denmark

Postby Varislintu » 2014-05-12, 8:52

Varislintu wrote:even clever ("seeking, rather than vengeance, retribution", i.e. there is no evil gay agenda that wants to destroy the world of straights, they don't want vengeance, just retribution for all the crap they've had to deal with).


Yeahokay so that message didn't really come across to everyone:

random ranter comment off the internet wrote:Yup, the Eurovision Song Contest was always gay-friendly but now it turned up to be a gay parade by definition. Europe, well done. I do hope that one day, in maybe 2-3 years, this contest will go down the drains and be just another gay event in a gay nightclub. I really do. Its pathetic to see how you march “tolerance” and at the same time you offend everyone else, no matter what the other thinks. I’m not having ANYTHING against gay men or women, but let’s be real – what’s the purpose of Conchita’s quote: “we’re unstoppable!” Should I be worried? Should me & my friends be worried? Do I really need so much propaganda in my life? I do tolerate you but you need to tolerate my choice of not getting thrilled by your PR of “tolerance”. Live your life but let the others live too. I’m reading many comments regarding the tolerance for the gay people, but you do not to take a break. Really.


*facepalm*
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Re: Eurovision Song Contest 2014 - Copenhagen, Denmark

Postby Sol Invictus » 2014-05-12, 9:03

Varislintu wrote:
Levike wrote:I wonder who would have won if only public votes were taken into consideration.


I think it should be possible to calculate that, but I'm too lazy for such a thing. :P EDIT: Oh, Sol Invictus found the answer. EDIT2: But doesn't that table just give the combined results?

There's a collapsed table to the right, which shows split results. Also ESC official site publishes this, but I couldn't find overview of all scores there (you can get scores of individual countries and marvel at how countries of people coming across as homophobic actually ranked Austria higher in the televoting than combined with jury)

But I voted for the Netherlands. :)

Me too. I didn't like Austrian song,but I didn't mind the performer and this shitstorm is unfair

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Re: Eurovision Song Contest 2014 - Copenhagen, Denmark

Postby Varislintu » 2014-05-12, 11:52

Sol Invictus wrote:There's a collapsed table to the right, which shows split results. Also ESC official site publishes this, but I couldn't find overview of all scores there (you can get scores of individual countries and marvel at how countries of people coming across as homophobic actually ranked Austria higher in the televoting than combined with jury)


Thanks! I'm frustrated every year with the official ESC site, when trying to find something out quick. Wikipedia manages to be better, as often is the case.
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Re: Eurovision Song Contest 2014 - Copenhagen, Denmark

Postby Ludwig Whitby » 2014-05-12, 16:03

I'm really bothered by the fact that people call this a victory for tolerance. Okay, a trans person won. That's something that would probably never happen in some other regions of the world*. But still. Is this tolerance?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=77A1oUn146w
Or this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9if_MVl45Q
Or this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9AKtD8h5j8

Booing Russians, including 16-year-olds. That's like totally a criticism of the Russian political elite and not like chauvinism. But you know, who cares. Fuck Russians.

For a display of tolerance, here is the Albanian entry being cheered in Belgrade in 2008. She even said ''Thank you'' in Serbian. 10 years after the war in Kosovo began, with all the ethnic cleansing and crimes against humanity, and a month after Kosovo proclaimed independence.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjq20IxwEfM

And here is a Croatian Romani act in Belgrade in 2008. Nothing but cheers and applause.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvpoe355YRU

-------------------------------
But then again there was Verka Serdochka from Ukraine at the 2007 Eurovision. And even in the Balkans we've got some famous trans people like Boki 13 from Macedonia and Azisfrom Bulgaria. Had they been better musicians, they could've won too...
Maybe Macedonia should go with Fifi next year.

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Re: Eurovision Song Contest 2014 - Copenhagen, Denmark

Postby Varislintu » 2014-05-12, 18:17

Ludwig Whitby wrote:Booing Russians, including 16-year-olds. That's like totally a criticism of the Russian political elite and not like chauvinism. But you know, who cares. Fuck Russians.


Well, you have to admit Russia has pretty much said a much more severe 'fuck you' to homosexuals.

Is it just because they're 16-year-old girls that it matters, or do you think it would have been equally wrong if the performer had been an adult? I think the age of the girls is actually the worst part of it, it can't have felt nice, and I hope they were prepped well enough before and after that they know it wasn't against them.

If the USA were to take part and they were booed after having once again done something cruel abroad, would you think that would be shocking as well? I don't think I'd be very outraged.

I don't know, I just don't personally think booing is necessarily that bad, if done in moderation so it doesn't actually ruin someone's performance or impede the event. EDIT: And as long as the reasons can be traced back to something non-personal.
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Re: Eurovision Song Contest 2014 - Copenhagen, Denmark

Postby Sol Invictus » 2014-05-12, 18:28

As I heard it was not the performance that was booed, but voting for them, there's a difference between offending sixteen year olds and not liking any chances of Russia hosting the next year's contest. Also I was told that Russian media were reporting that Russia ordered the hosts to get the audience in line, I imagine if that was actually attempted it didn't go down well with the audience. And anyways - how is it not tolerant? Russia most likely got boobed for its politics, not because people dislike Russians

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Re: Eurovision Song Contest 2014 - Copenhagen, Denmark

Postby Ludwig Whitby » 2014-05-12, 19:02

Varislintu wrote:
Ludwig Whitby wrote:Booing Russians, including 16-year-olds. That's like totally a criticism of the Russian political elite and not like chauvinism. But you know, who cares. Fuck Russians.


Well, you have to admit Russia has pretty much said a much more severe 'fuck you' to homosexuals.

Sure. But so did Serbia to Albanians and Albanian Kosovo to Serbs and Croatia to Serbs and Serbia to Croats etc... There is a difference between politicians and ordinary people.
Varislintu wrote:Is it just because they're 16-year-old girls that it matters, or do you think it would have been equally wrong if the performer had been an adult? I think the age of the girls is actually the worst part of it, it can't have felt nice, and I hope they were prepped well enough before and after that they know it wasn't against them.

In my opinion, it is worse. They're minors. They can't even vote and they are being booed and being prevented from winning a singing contest because of something their government did.

Varislintu wrote:If the USA were to take part and they were booed after having once again done something cruel abroad, would you think that would be shocking as well? I don't think I'd be very outraged.

Yes. I differentiate between singers and politicians.
Varislintu wrote:I don't know, I just don't personally think booing is necessarily that bad, if done in moderation so it doesn't actually ruin someone's performance or impede the event. EDIT: And as long as the reasons can be traced back to something non-personal.

Booing someone on the basis of their ethnicity and nationality is bad.

Sol Invictus wrote:As I heard it was not the performance that was booed, but voting for them, there's a difference between offending sixteen year olds and not liking any chances of Russia hosting the next year's contest. Also I was told that Russian media were reporting that Russia ordered the hosts to get the audience in line, I imagine if that was actually attempted it didn't go down well with the audience. And anyways - how is it not tolerant? Russia most likely got boobed for its politics, not because people dislike Russians

So, those girls shouldn't win because of something their politicians did? This is a singing-contest, you know? It's not a government-policies contest.
Last edited by Ludwig Whitby on 2014-05-12, 19:36, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Eurovision Song Contest 2014 - Copenhagen, Denmark

Postby Hoogstwaarschijnlijk » 2014-05-12, 19:12

Both of my parents have told me how much they disliked Austria, because of the beard. *sigh*

Actually I'm in a way surprised on how many people are focusing on the beard. I thought it quite beautiful actually. It was the whiteness of the teeth that felt unnatural to me.




[edit] And the booing made me sad. I felt so sorry for those girls.
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