The American Dream?

[azhong]

It is a coincidence that I am reading The Great Gatsby, a novel usually said with a theme related to so-called the American dream.

And, for another thing, it suddenly comes to my mind the public speech I have a dream delivered by Martin Luther. In the dream of this American, he seemingly mentioned nothing about any desire of being personally "prominent" or "well-to-do", two words I've newly learned from the mentioned novel.

[vijayjohn]

It is a coincidence that I am reading The Great Gatsby, a novel usually said with a theme related to so-called the American dream.

We had to read this novel in high school. I hated it. I don't think I will ever learn to appreciate F. Scott Fitzgerald for criticizing the wealthy while being guilty for engaging in exactly the same behavior as the people he criticized.

[azhong]

We had to read this novel in high school. I hated it. I don't think I will ever learn to appreciate F. Scott Fitzgerald for criticizing the wealthy while being guilty for engaging in exactly the same behavior as the people he criticized.

It sounds that what you dislike is not the novel but more the author? Anyhow, I agree with your although I just finished chapter one so far, and I don't know what life Fitzgerald led in his later years. But I know fortune luxury life is very... magnetic? And we are all made of iron. (That's also why we are all good at criticizing people coldly. ^_^)

[mōdgethanc]

The thought came to mind that no one is in a better position to critique it than someone who lived that lifestyle and also his life wasn't perfectly easy either, but it's not a hill I want to die on. Overrated book. It is short at least, there's that. It makes its point and then fucks off. Making it longer would've been a disaster.

[vijayjohn]

I think I'll write this post in both English and Chinese.
我想用中文和英文写这个帖子。

It sounds that what you dislike is not the novel but more the author?

No, it's both.
不是， 我都不喜欢。

Anyhow, I agree with your although I just finished chapter one so far, and I don't know what life Fitzgerald led in his later years.

I would say (我会说) "I agree with you although so far, I've only finished Chapter One, and..."

In his later years, he was an alcoholic. He became sober but then died of a heart attack.
在晚年他对酒精成瘾了， 后来一醉醒就因为心肌梗死的关系而死。

But I know fortune luxury life is very... magnetic?

I'm not completely sure whether I understood correctly. Did you mean that rich people's lives are very static? I think that rich people's lives are very boring. Poor people have much more interesting and important experiences.
我不完全确定看懂了。 你的意思是有钱人的生活非常静态吗？ 我认为， 有钱人的生活太无聊了。 穷人的经验又有意思得多， 又重要得多。

And we are all made of iron. (That's also why we are all good at criticizing people coldly. ^_^)

The thought came to mind that no one is in a better position to critique it than someone who lived that lifestyle and also his life wasn't perfectly easy either, but it's not a hill I want to die on.

No, you're right. What I take issue with is that he never admitted that he was just as bad as Gatsby.
你说得很对， 我不喜欢的是他从来没承认自己跟 Gatsby 有一样的问题。

[azhong]

The thought came to mind that no one is in a better position to critique it than someone who lived that lifestyle and also his life wasn't perfectly easy either, but it's not a hill I want to die on.

I have a different understanding in mōdgethanc's post now after I've read it again but I am still not fully confident I've understood it correctly. Does mōdgethanc mean simething like, let me rephrase in my words:

That Nick/Fitzgerald can criticize Gatzby precisely shows exactly he leads the same life as Gatzby does.
And also, Fitzgerald himself didn't lead a morally perfect life, then how can he criticize the imperfectness of some other people's life?
But, at any rate, to criticize people is not something I wanna do. (Or the rich life they led is not one I wanna lead?)

[azhong]

But I know luxury life is very... magnetic?

I'm not completely sure whether I understood correctly.

Forget me having phrased it in that awkward way while stupidly thinking it literarily creative, and let me phrase it again:
I agree with you it's not conscientious that , for example, you criticize people that they should not cross a red light when you yourself do that later, too.
But I think the rich people's life is attractive; most people effort for it and can't assist the attempt of luxury life. And that's perhaps why Fitzgerald led his life that way.( I intended to use "magnetic" to mean "attractive"...)

在晚年他对酒精成瘾了， 后来一醉醒就因为心肌梗死的关系而死。
我不完全确定看懂了。 你的意思是有钱人的生活非常静态吗？ 我认为， 有钱人的生活太无聊了。 穷人的经验又有意思得多， 又重要得多。

I think "sober" is "醒酒”. “醉醒“ is not understandable. The rest sentences are all understandable and most of them are fine. Let me just pick a sentence to show the subtle differences between your sentence and mine:
在晚年他对酒精成瘾了， 后来一醉醒就因为心肌梗死的关系而死。
他在晚年酒精成瘾， 有天醒酒後死於心肌梗塞。

I read that Fitzgerald was commented "talented but not creative", which I think means his works are great but he didn't write a lot of works. It's quite painful for a writer not able to write out anything he himself satisfied with. Perhaps that's why he got addicted in alcohol later...a poor great writer...

[vijayjohn]

The thought came to mind that no one is in a better position to critique it than someone who lived that lifestyle and also his life wasn't perfectly easy either, but it's not a hill I want to die on.

I have a different understanding in mōdgethanc's post now after I've read it again but I am still not fully confident I've understood it correctly.

I would say "now that I've read it again, but...I understood it correctly."

Does mōdgethanc mean simething like, let me rephrase in my words:

I would write "something" and say "in my own words" (I think "in my words" is also perfectly acceptable).

That Nick/Fitzgerald can criticize Gatzby precisely shows exactly he leads the same life as Gatzby does.

I would say "...precisely shows that he leads exactly the same life as Gatsby does." It's spelled "Gatsby" in The Great Gatsby.

And also, Fitzgerald himself didn't lead a morally perfect life, then how can he criticize the unperfectness of some other people's life?

I would say "Also, Fitzgerald himself didn't lead a morally perfect life, so how can he criticize the imperfection of someone else's life?"

But, at any rate, to criticize people is not something I wanna do. (Or the rich life they led is not one I wanna lead?)

No, I think he's saying almost the opposite:

Fitzgerald lived the same life as Gatsby.
Fitzgerald knew how bad that life was.
That's why Fitzgerald criticized Gatsby's life.
Fitzgerald also had a hard life.

Forget me having phrased it in that awkward way while stupidly thinking it literarily creative,

I would say "forgive me for having..."

and let me phrase it again:
I agree with you it's not conscientious that , for example, you criticize people that they should not cross a red light when you yourself do that later, too.

I would say "I agree with you that it's not conscientious to, for example, criticize people for crossing a red light...".

By the way, I think it would be more like crossing a red light and then writing a story criticizing somebody crossing a red light.

But I think the rich people's life is attractive; most people effort for it and can't assist the attempt of luxury life. And that's perhaps why Fitzgerald led his life that way.( I intended to use "magnetic" to mean "attractive"...)

Oh, I see. (I would say "But I think rich people's lives are attractive; most people strive for it and can't resist the allure of a luxurious lifestyle. Maybe that's why Fitzgerald led his life that way. (I intended to use "magnetic" to mean 'attractive'...).").

Yes, I think he found life as a rich person attractive at first. I think a lot of people believe that money buys happiness, but it doesn't. Rich people have a lot of problems, too.

The rest sentences are all understandable and most of them are fine.

I would say "the other sentences."

I read that Fitzgerald was commented "talented but not creative",

I would say "was said to be 'talented but not creative'..."

which I think means his works are great but he didn't write a lot of works. It's quite painful for a writer not able to write out anything he himself satisfied with. Perhaps that's why he got addicted in alcohol later...a poor great writer...

I would say "not to be able to write anything he himself was satisfied with. Perhaps that's why he got addicted to alcohol later..."

[azhong]

No, I think he's saying almost the opposite:

Fitzgerald lived the same life as Gatsby.
Fitzgerald knew how bad that life was.
That's why Fitzgerald criticized Gatsby's life.
Fitzgerald also had a hard life.

To begin with, I want to thank you, Vijay, for having carefully corrected all my unnatural usages. It's very precious to me.

A question following the quotation then, please: What does mōdgethanc mean by saying "it's not a hill I want to die on"? Does it mean "I don't want to live that way (as Getsby and Fitzgerald did)"?

(In fact I am confused now: Did Fitzgerald lead his luxury life before or after finishing the novel? If it's after, how can we say something like "Fitzgerald lived the same life as Gatsby. Fitzgerald knew how bad that life was. That's why Fitzgerald criticized Gatsby's life."? We can say so only in the situation that Fitzgerald had been leading his luxury life before he finished the book...Was Fitzgerald born with a silver spoon in his mouth?)

P.S. I might have misled you for I am not sure what you mean in your sentence:

In his later years, he was an alcoholic. He became sober but then died of a heart attack.

Do you mean he quitted drinking for a period of time first then died one day? In Chinese, to quit drinking is 戒酒。

Or do you mean he had got drunk the previous night and then made himself feel better by drinking some tea or coffee the next morning (and then died that afternoon or something)? To relieve the hangover is 醒酒 or 解酒.

[Naava]

A question following the quotation then, please: What does mōdgethanc mean by saying "it's not a hill I want to die on"? Does it mean "I don't want to live that way (as Getsby and Fitzgerald did)"?

Here's some links you might find helpful:
first link
second link
third link

[vijayjohn]

To begin with, I want to thank you, Vijay, for having carefully corrected all my unnatural usages. It's very precious to me.

I think I would say "valuable" rather than "precious."

A question following the quotation then, please: What does mōdgethanc mean by saying "it's not a hill I want to die on"? Does it mean "I don't want to live that way (as Getsby and Fitzgerald did)"?

No, it means 'I don't want to argue too much in favor of my position. If you think differently, that's okay.'

(In fact I am confused now: Did Fitzgerald lead his luxury life before or after finishing the novel?

Before finishing it, after finishing it, and when he finished it

Was Fitzgerald born with a silver spoon in his mouth?)

Not exactly. As mōdgethanc said, his life was not very easy, but he did eventually become very rich (before writing The Great Gatsby).

P.S. I might have misled you for I am not sure what you mean in your sentence:

In his later years, he was an alcoholic. He became sober but then died of a heart attack.

Do you mean he quitted drinking for a period of time first then died one day? In Chinese, to quit drinking is 戒酒。

Or do you mean he had got drunk the previous night and then made himself feel better by drinking some tea or coffee the next morning (and then died that afternoon or something)? To relieve the hangover is 醒酒 or 解酒.

He quit drinking for over a year and then died. (By the way, I would say "he had gotten," but I think many native speakers of English would say "got" like you did).

[azhong]

Oh, I see, and thank you for the information about Fitzgerald and language corrections again, both very valuable to me. Btw, is "precious" too...heavy, too rich for being used in this situation?

Also, when you say: "What I take issue with is that he never admitted that he was just as bad as Gatsby," you are actually not valuing his work but, instead, him, am I right? That can surely be a reason to dislike a person. You might consider him...false -- can the word mean "dishonest and insincere"? I remember I've read a phrase "false laughters" in some Harry Potter Chapter. (BTW again, my life experience has told me that it really needs some courage and self-confidence out of self-understading so as to be sincere. But not all people own these abilities...)

And then, just curious to ask, you didn't mention why you dislike the novel yet if you'd like to share it. I'm not questioning you but just having a chat, anyway. Just a guess: Maybe you dislike it just because you dislike its author in advance? It's also acceptable if so. In Chinese we have an idiom to describe the psychological phenomenon, phrasing from a different angle, though.
愛屋及烏
(Love house toward crow)
For I love the house, I expand my love toward the crow nesting under the eaves although crows are considered birds that would bring bad luck. Note that there is a rhythm between 屋 and 烏. There is also another idiom expressing the same feeling, which I will l leave to you without explanation for now:
惜花連盆，惜子連孫

[vijayjohn]

Oh, I see, and thank you for the information about Fitzgerald and language corrections again, both very valuable to me. Btw, is "precious" too...heavy, too rich for being used in this situation?

Not really, I don't see people using "precious" very often in general. I think usually, at least nowadays, people use "precious" when talking about a child, almost as a synonym for 'cute'.

Also, when you say: "What I take issue with is that he never admitted that he was just as bad as Gatsby," you are actually not valuing his work but, instead, him, am I right?

No, I'm taking issue with both, because I think the work is connected to the person who wrote it. I think he could have openly confessed to what he did, and it would have made a big difference, but he didn't do that. Instead, he wrote a fictional story about someone who was not very different from him.

That can surely be a reason to dislike a person. You might consider him...false -- can the word mean "dishonest and insincere"? I remember I've read a phrase "false laughters" in some Harry Potter Chapter.

I think "false" can mean that, but here, I'd be more likely to use either "fake" or "ingenuine" ("fake" is definitely a harsher word to use here).

(BTW again, my life experience has told me that it really needs some courage and self-confidence out of self-understading so as to be sincere. But not all people own these abilities...)

I would say "...has told me that being sincere really requires courage and self-confidence out of self-understanding/self-awareness. But not all people have these abilities..."

And that is true. Maybe Fitzgerald never fully understood what he himself did. I'm not sure.

And then, just curious to ask, you didn't mention why you dislike the novel yet if you'd like to share it. I'm not questioning you but just having a chat, anyway. Just a guess: Maybe you dislike it just because you dislike its author in advance? It's also acceptable if so. In Chinese we have an idiom to describe the psychological phenomenon, phrasing from a different angle, though.
愛屋及烏
(Love house toward crow)
For I love the house, I expand my love toward the crow nesting under the eaves although crows are considered birds that would bring bad luck. Note that there is a rhythm between 屋 and 烏. There is also another idiom expressing the same feeling, which I will l leave to you without explanation for now:
惜花連盆，惜子連孫

I would say: "Also, just curious: You haven't mentioned why you dislike the novel yet if you'd like to share it. I don't mean to question (or get into an argument with) you, but just a guess: Maybe you dislike it just because you dislike its author to begin with? If so, that's also understandable. In Chinese, we have an idiom to describe this psychological phenomenon, though phrased from a different angle:
愛屋及烏
(Love house toward crow)
Since I love my house, I expand my love even towards the crow nesting under the eaves although/even though crows are considered birds that would bring bad luck. Note that 屋 and 烏 are homophones. There is...which I will leave to you..."

To answer your question: Like I said earlier in this post, I don't like the novel because I think the author could have written something better. I think instead of writing a story criticizing the behavior of a fictional person, he could have written a criticism of himself. I think that would have been much more interesting.

[azhong]

No, I'm taking issue with both, because I think the work is connected to the person who wrote it. I think he could have openly confessed to what he did, and it would have made a big difference, but he didn't do that. Instead, he wrote a fictional story about someone who was not very different from him.

...I don't like the novel because I think the author could have written something better. I think instead of writing a story criticizing the behavior of a fictional person, he could have written a criticism of himself. I think that would have been much more interesting.

Another writing practice of mine here, though I am going to say something seriously basing on your wrords quoted.

I don't know how to say the term 修行人 in English. It refers to those who spend their lives being a monk pursuing not fortune or fame or any material-based happiness but, instead, desiring to have a peaceful mind at any moment by knowing the skills of taming their hearts which were as wild as untamed horses. Maybe hermits? I feel you have that tendency.

My college major was engineering, not literature, but as far as I know, what you have said is not a typical way to value a work. Usually the comments for a work would be on it's organicness, the characters carved, the plot designed, the construction used, the concepts conveyed, etc. It's surely true the quality of an auther's heart would have great influence on their work; however, I think the judgement would be still mainly focused on the work itself by seeing a work as an independent object from the author. For some schools informations of the author can be a support, a reference.

But you seem to consider it highly dominate that if a person's decent, honest, sincere, etc. One opinion of you is interesting to me: Fitzgerald intended to write a novel, but the reason you dislike it is that you think he should write a biography. How can you say i don't bakke my cake well just because you expect me to make a pizza?

I think your thought has spotlighted your belief on the importance of being a nice, moral man. I don't think it's a proper way to judge a literature work but, as a human, I do agree with you. In fact, I can't agree with you more.

I was actually once a "pre-monk", voluntarily, and have lived in a temple for about three years at my age around thirty, and that experience has rebuilt my concepts and my later life.

Since your ancestors were from India, I am quite curious now about your belief in religion, and how does it give influence to you.

(Edit: Thinking about your previous words again, you didn't say it was subjectively a bad work but just say you didn't like it. If so, it's okay then.)

[Dormouse559]

I think "false" can mean that, but here, I'd be more likely to use either "fake" or "ingenuine" ("fake" is definitely a harsher word to use here).

While "ingenuine" makes sense, I don't think it's a very common word. In my experience, "disingenuous" is preferred.

[vijayjohn]

Another writing practice of mine here, though I am going to say something seriously basing on your wrords quoted.

I think maybe you accidentally wrote wrords instead of words. (I assume that's a typo, but you seem to appreciate it when I point things like this out to you. I'm sorry if I'm being annoying by pointing it out).

I don't know how to say the term 修行人 in English.

Spiritual practitioner?

It refers to those who spend their lives being a monk pursuing not fortune or fame or any material-based happiness but, instead, desiring to have a peaceful mind at any moment by knowing the skills of taming their hearts which were as wild as untamed horses. Maybe hermits? I feel you have that tendency.

It's not that I think money is unimportant or that I don't want money. The way I see money is that it is necessary for some things like food and air conditioning. If you get married and have children, that also costs a lot of money. But I also know that a lot of people in this world suffer. There are children in some parts of the world who can't even get water that is safe to drink. Helping people who suffer also requires money. I'm not interested in having a fancy car or expensive clothes, but I would like to have enough money to take care of myself, raise a family, and help others.

My college major was engineering, not literature, but as far as I know, what you have said is not a typical way to value a work. Usually the comments for a work would be on it's organicness, the characters carved, the plot designed, the construction used, the concepts conveyed, etc. It's surely true the quality of an auther's heart would have great influence on their work; however, I think the judgement would be still mainly focused on the work itself by seeing a work as an independent object from the author. For some schools informations of the author can be a support, a reference.

I think I would have written: "My college major was engineering, not literature, but as far as I know, what you have said is not a typical way to evaluate a work of literature. Usually, the comments for a literary work would be on its organicness" (I'm not quite sure what you mean by "organicness"), "characters, plot, construction" (I'm not sure what you mean by "construction," either), "the concepts conveyed, etc. It's surely true that the quality of an author's heart would have...the author. For some schools, information about the author can be a support or (a) reference."

But you seem to consider it highly dominate that if a person's decent, honest, sincere, etc.

I'm not sure what you mean by "dominate," and I would write "whether a person is decent, honest, sincere, etc."

One opinion of you is interesting to me: Fitzgerald intended to write a novel, but the reason you dislike it is that you think he should write a biography. How can you say i don't bakke my cake well just because you expect me to make a pizza?

I would write "bake."

I think your thought has spotlighted your belief on the importance of being a nice, moral man. I don't think it's a proper way to judge a literature work but, as a human, I do agree with you. In fact, I can't agree with you more.

I don't know how common it is exactly, but I think people do often evaluate books by their authors. For example, I think part of the reason why The Kite Runner is popular is because the author is Afghan. There are many people who have written about Afghanistan in English, but few of them are actually from Afghanistan. That makes a difference.

I don't necessarily think Fitzgerald needed to write an autobiography. He could even have written The Great Gatsby and just added something about how guilty he personally was of doing similar things, and I think I would have appreciated it more.

I was actually once a "pre-monk", voluntarily, and have lived in a temple for about three years at my age around thirty, and that experience has rebuilt my concepts and my later life.

In English, I think people usually call someone like this a "lay monk" or an "apprentice monk." I think I might also say "and affected my later life."

Since your ancestors were from India, I am quite curious now about your belief in religion, and how does it give influence to you.

I would say "...your belief in religion and how it influences you."

I'm atheist. My parents and brother are also atheist. To some extent, I find it interesting to see how people interact with religion, but I also don't really understand the concept of spirituality. I'm often skeptical of what I hear or read. I'm not sure what else to say about how my atheist upbringing influences me.

[azhong]

(I assume that's a typo, but you seem to appreciate it when I point things like this out to you. I'm sorry if I'm being annoying by pointing it out).

Annoying me by helping me? Not a way will lead towards there. "Thank you" is what I should say before saying sorry. I have been lately replying on my cellphone and thus easier to have typoes. However, you can just ignore them if it's obviously a word that you think I can surely spell, so as to save your time and energy.

There are children in some parts of the world who can't even get water that is safe to drink.

I guess you witnessed that on your trip back India? It's really sad...

(I'm not quite sure what you mean by "organicness")... (I'm not sure what you mean by "construction," either)

I try to explain with my imperfect English, though I am not very clear what it means, either.
Being organic of a work is that the work itself is a complete world. The plots sufficiently support one another and they move forward reasonablly. It can convince the readers that the result is possible to happen in the situation the novel talks about. All the clues needed can be found in the story itself -- Well, I don't know how to explain it, either. I give it up.
"Construction" might be easier to explain. Or should I use the word "form"? There are one-line, two-line and multi-line stories. There are narration, flashback, and narration interpaused, etc. They show the design and practice of the writer. I believe you know these.

But you seem to consider it highly dominate that if a person's decent, honest, sincere, etc.

I'm not sure what you mean by "dominate," and I would write "whether a person is decent, honest, sincere, etc."

"more important than anything else", that's what I want to say. "Reign"?

[vijayjohn]

(I assume that's a typo, but you seem to appreciate it when I point things like this out to you. I'm sorry if I'm being annoying by pointing it out).

Annoying me by helping me? Not a way will lead towards there.

I'm not sure what you mean by this, perhaps "there's no way you would be," i.e. "I could not possibly be annoyed if you point out typos"?

"Thank you" is what I should say before saying sorry.

You mean before I say sorry?

I have been lately replying on my cellphone and thus easier to have typoes. However, you can just ignore them if it's obviously a word that you think I can surely spell, so as to save your time and energy.

Okay! I would write "typos" btw.

There are children in some parts of the world who can't even get water that is safe to drink.

I guess you witnessed that on your trip back India? It's really sad...

I guess you mean "on trips back to India." I have read about people not having access to clean water, but I haven't seen children drinking contaminated water or anything like that. In India, all I've personally experienced is that water is scarce in bigger cities. As far as I remember, in Bengaluru, tap water is unavailable after 10 PM. I also remember seeing people getting water from a truck in Chennai (but the picture of the water truck I just posted is not from Chennai).

I try to explain with my imperfect English, though I am not very clear what it means, either.
Being organic of a work is that the work itself is a complete world. The plots sufficiently support one another and they move forward reasonablly. It can convince the readers that the result is possible to happen in the situation the novel talks about. All the clues needed can be found in the story itself -- Well, I don't know how to explain it, either. I give it up.
"Construction" might be easier to explain. Or should I use the word "form"? There are one-line, two-line and multi-line stories. There are narration, flashback, and narration interpaused, etc. They show the design and practice of the writer. I believe you know these.

I would say "I give up," but I think you explained it fairly well. Thank you!

But you seem to consider it highly dominate that if a person's decent, honest, sincere, etc.

I'm not sure what you mean by "dominate," and I would write "whether a person is decent, honest, sincere, etc."

"more important than anything else", that's what I want to say. "Reign"?

"Dominate" and "reign" are both verbs, but in English, after the word consider and a direct object, I would only use a) an adjective, b) a noun, c) to be, or d) to followed by the perfect, but never just a verb, e.g.:

I consider my family important./I consider my family to be important.
They consider this book a masterpiece./They consider this book to be a masterpiece.
Historians consider Taiwan to have managed the pandemic well.

But not e.g.:

*Historians consider Taiwan to manage the pandemic well.

So I think I would say, "But you seem to consider it crucial whether a person is decent, honest, sincere, etc."

[Sammy00]

I think everyone understands this phrase in their own way. For somebody, it's a house in the suburbs and a big family and a dog, and for others, it's a successful career and a rented apartment in New York.