Meat-eating and the industry

You are...

All-around meat-eater
28
53%
Minimal meat-eater
14
26%
Pescetarian
1
2%
Lacto-ovo vegetarian
5
9%
Lacto vegetarian
0
No votes
Vegan
3
6%
Other
2
4%
 
Total votes: 53

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Steisi
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Re: Meat-eating and the industry

Postby Steisi » 2008-10-21, 10:30

loqu wrote:I guess soon we'll have it, if it isn't on the way yet. You know, the EU always bothers about issuing new ruling to make labels have more and more information, soon we'll have booklets with each product.

Not that I'm against any of these things like those aggressively anti-EU folks, in fact I think it's positive, but too much information can confuse the customer.


At times like these I find it nice to be blissfully ignorant of things I'm not bothered about. Like if you don't care where your meat came from or how it ended up on your plate, don't read the packaging. If you aren't watching your weight, no need to read the calorie amount, right? :noclue:
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Re: Meat-eating and the industry

Postby linguaholic » 2008-10-21, 10:41

Wow, this is actually the first online discussion on meat consumption I've seen that didn't evolve into a "yes-no-yes-no-debate" with lots of insults after two posts.

If you really have the time and money to take up a humanitarian cause, I would worry about saving the <insert your preferred group of humans living in terrible conditions> before worrying about how we treat our food.

This point has been brought up several times. However, worrying about animal rights does not mean you don't worry about anything else anymore. On the contrary, from my experience people who care about animal rights are usually also concerned with human rights while those who can't be bothered can't be bothered with anything. (Generalizing here.) I went vegan about nine months ago (had been vegetarian for a few years before) and it has made me so much more aware of a lot of stuff. Like: "If I don't buy wool and leather because it's cruel to animals, how can I buy a cotton sweater that has been dyed by children who get cancer because it's poisonous?" Result: I try to buy most of my clothes second-hand. Better for the environment, cheaper (!), you never see anybody walking around in the same clothes. I am active in an amnesty international group. I try to buy fair trade stuff if my budget allows it. No, I'm not a saint. I also buy stuff because it's cheap or because I like it. I spend money on stuff for my pleasure instead of donating it. Point is, I try to think about the consequences of my actions.
I feel offended by the notion that animal rights activists don't care about humans.

As for the arguments "It's only animals." and "It has always been like this." - if things always stayed the way they were women still wouldn't be allowed to vote. Black people would still be considered inferior. Gay people would still be considered scum. I realize that women, black people and gays still have to face an awful lot of discrimination but still we've come a long way.
How is "It's only animals" different from "It's only a fag"?

"I only buy free-range eggs." And what about the eggs that are in sweets, cakes, pasta etc.?

I recommend living vegan for two weeks. Not even because of animal rights issues. Just because reading ingredient lists makes you aware of how much stuff you eat you had no idea about.

I know that veganism may not be the path for everyone. I just wish people were more conscious about their choices.
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Re: Meat-eating and the industry

Postby Steisi » 2008-10-21, 10:49

linguaholic wrote:"I only buy free-range eggs." And what about the eggs that are in sweets, cakes, pasta etc.?


I make my own cakes :mrgreen: They taste much better and prevent weight gain because I can never be bothered to wash up after myself so it's a preventative measure.

Besides, it's only buying free range eggs better than not caring at all? It's a positive thing, even if people could do more :yep:
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Re: Meat-eating and the industry

Postby loqu » 2008-10-21, 10:54

linguaholic wrote:How is "It's only animals" different from "It's only a fag"?


Seriously.

You may find that argument coherent, but I can't see it very valid.

Unless you want to milk us gay guys too, which I don't think is the case.
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Re: Meat-eating and the industry

Postby linguaholic » 2008-10-21, 11:05

Besides, it's only buying free range eggs better than not caring at all? It's a positive thing, even if people could do more :yep:

Agreed.

You may find that argument coherent, but I can't see it very valid.

Unless you want to milk us gay guys too, which I don't think is the case.


Firstly, I am gay too. Secondly, I don't want to milk anybody. Thirdly, I don't see how the act of "milking" is necessary to justify an analogy. "It's only cows so we can exploit and abuse and kill them cruelly." is quite similar to "They're only blacks, they're like animals anyway" or "You can beat up gays, they end up in hell anyway."
I'd be glad to be proven wrong.
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Re: Meat-eating and the industry

Postby Levo » 2008-10-21, 11:06

Half of my friend-circle is vegetarian. They don't (want to) eat eggs either.
But whenever we go to a fastfood restaurant, one of them orders coated cheese. And he doesn't believe us that in places like that, the coat has egg among its ingredients. :) By the way he doesn't feel it while eating and has no problem afterwards either.

By the way, as for the way of producing eggs and which type we buy, in Hungary as for the latest datas 98% of the eggs are produced in cages. The remaining 2% is not sold in the markets but consumed by the families producing it. It's a fact. So we have no choice, we eat type-3 eggs no matter we want it or not.

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Re: Meat-eating and the industry

Postby Lada » 2008-10-21, 11:31

loqu wrote:
linguaholic wrote:How is "It's only animals" different from "It's only a fag"?


Seriously.

You may find that argument coherent, but I can't see it very valid.

yeah, actually we are humans, it doesn't matter who is gay or hetero, black or white, we are all human beings NOT animals and it's NOT correct to compare people with animals at all.

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Re: Meat-eating and the industry

Postby linguaholic » 2008-10-21, 11:39

yeah, actually we are humans, it doesn't matter who is gay or hetero, black or white, we are all human beings NOT animals and it's NOT correct to compare people with animals at all.


It is only "not correct" because animals are seen as "less valid". We are all living beings.
Agreed, it is natural to value a member of your own species more highly. If I have the choice between saving a child's life and a calf's - of course I'll save the child. Similarly, if I have to save a family member or a stranger I'll choose the relative. Still that doesn't give me the right to say "strangers are of no interest to me, let them die, I don't care".
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Re: Meat-eating and the industry

Postby Varislintu » 2008-10-21, 12:19

I agree with the post above.

Humans are animals. The only difference is that we who sit here pondering this happen to be humans, so for us the human race is a bit more important than all the other species.
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Re: Meat-eating and the industry

Postby Javier » 2008-10-21, 13:05

And do we agree that some animals eat other animals without feeling guilty, right? :D
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Re: Meat-eating and the industry

Postby linguaholic » 2008-10-21, 13:10

Yes. I don't think eating animals is unethical per se. I don't mind, say, a tribe somewhere in the jungle hunting an animal and using all of it. The problems with meat "production" are that a) we produce way to much, b) we eat it even if we don't need it to survive and c) those animals' lives' only "purpose" is being slaughtered. Not natural.
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Re: Meat-eating and the industry

Postby Javier » 2008-10-21, 13:17

I agree with your points a and b. I think also animals to be consumed must be killed as efficiently as possible, so a chicken can be quickly killed to later become a delicious meal :D

But what I do not understand is how we can make the life of these animals to be consumed any better, what would be a better way to give a meaning to their lifes?
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Re: Meat-eating and the industry

Postby Tenebrarum » 2008-10-21, 13:24

Lada wrote:we are all human beings NOT animals and it's NOT correct to compare people with animals at all.

That's arrogance on the part of homo sapiens.

linguaholic wrote:I don't think eating animals is unethical per se.

I agree. It's as wrong as saying tigers, wolves, lions... are "bad guys" because they kill to obtain meat. Humans are natural omnivores, that means we are supposed to consume both plants and animals if we want good health.

It's just revolting seeing a chicken have its throat slit.
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Re: Meat-eating and the industry

Postby Steisi » 2008-10-21, 13:27

Draven wrote:It's just revolting seeing a chicken have its throat slit.


Sorry if this offends someone that I ask, but; don't you snap chickens necks rather than slit them open? My great grandma used to keep chickens and if I remember right that's how she always used to do it :noclue:
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Re: Meat-eating and the industry

Postby Tenebrarum » 2008-10-21, 13:34

Steisi wrote:Sorry if this offends someone that I ask, but; don't you snap chickens necks rather than slit them open?

Chicken blood can become food in Asia. And in Vietnam, pig blood can too. :silly:
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Re: Meat-eating and the industry

Postby Steisi » 2008-10-21, 13:42

Draven wrote:
Steisi wrote:Sorry if this offends someone that I ask, but; don't you snap chickens necks rather than slit them open?

Chicken blood can become food in Asia. And in Vietnam, pig blood can too. :silly:


Not just in Asia ;) But I'll stop here; I don't want to offend anyone, just never heard of chicken's throats being slit, is all.
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Re: Meat-eating and the industry

Postby Sarabi » 2008-10-21, 13:45

Steisi wrote:
Draven wrote:It's just revolting seeing a chicken have its throat slit.


Sorry if this offends someone that I ask, but; don't you snap chickens necks rather than slit them open? My great grandma used to keep chickens and if I remember right that's how she always used to do it :noclue:

Not in factory farms. I guess you didn't watch the video or remember my original post. Pigs, cows, chickens, and turkeys all have their throats slit. For chickens and turkeys, they are run through a throat-slitting machine which sometimes misses their throat and slices their faces or chests instead.

Chicken blood can become food in Asia. And in Vietnam, pig blood can too.

Calves are not allowed to drink their mothers' milk. Instead, they are hooked up to machines where they suck on something made partly from cow blood.

yeah, actually we are humans, it doesn't matter who is gay or hetero, black or white, we are all human beings NOT animals and it's NOT correct to compare people with animals at all.

This statement just proves to me that humans ARE animals. Lions and tigers don't care about the well-being of their prey because they don't have the mental capacity to do so. Same with humans - many of us lack the mental capacity to care (although who can't acquire that capacity, I don't know). And, by the way, lions don't just kill for food. Like us, they kill other animals who they consider to be a nuisance but don't intend to eat, i.e. hyenas. At least they don't torture them.

Humans are natural omnivores, that means we are supposed to consume both plants and animals if we want good health.

I "want good health", and have it, but I don't consume animals. I must not be human.
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Re: Meat-eating and the industry

Postby Tenebrarum » 2008-10-21, 13:48

Sarabi wrote:
Humans are natural omnivores, that means we are supposed to consume both plants and animals if we want good health.

I "want good health", and have it, but I don't consume animals. I must not be human.

Well you can always argue with nature. Victory is not guaranteed though.
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Re: Meat-eating and the industry

Postby Sarabi » 2008-10-21, 14:09

Draven wrote:
Sarabi wrote:
Humans are natural omnivores, that means we are supposed to consume both plants and animals if we want good health.

I "want good health", and have it, but I don't consume animals. I must not be human.

Well you can always argue with nature. Victory is not guaranteed though.

How am I arguing with nature? Nature loves me and is supporting me in my desire to live compassionately. :wink: The only one I'm arguing with is fellow human beings.
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Re: Meat-eating and the industry

Postby linguaholic » 2008-10-21, 14:13

Humans are natural omnivores, that means we are supposed to consume both plants and animals if we want good health.

With the abundance of food in our society, it is no problem to live healthily on a plant-based diet. Imbalance is unhealthy - no matter if you eat only tofu or only meat.

But what I do not understand is how we can make the life of these animals to be consumed any better, what would be a better way to give a meaning to their lifes?

We should stop seeing animals as products or producing machines. We can give a meaning to their lives if we stop seeing ourselves as master over their lives. - Meaning we have to stop breeding animals all together. As this is utopic (for now), much can be reached by either checking where your food comes from and buying responsibly, or boycotting animal products.
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