Meat-eating and the industry

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All-around meat-eater
28
53%
Minimal meat-eater
14
26%
Pescetarian
1
2%
Lacto-ovo vegetarian
5
9%
Lacto vegetarian
0
No votes
Vegan
3
6%
Other
2
4%
 
Total votes: 53

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linguaholic
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Re: Meat-eating and the industry

Postby linguaholic » 2008-10-27, 15:53

Why? You don't see where your clothes come from, or your books, or cellphone, or anything else you own and use.


I try to have a look at where my other stuff comes from as well, but mainly for human rights reasons. (I'm horrible, I know.)

Why make what you eat something special?

1.) Because I put it in my body. (Just as you should have a look at the sources of what you "digest" with your head i.e. by reading.)
2.) Because we're talking about living beings here. Maybe the distance between production and product has only made industrial killing possible.
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Re: Meat-eating and the industry

Postby Babelfish » 2008-10-27, 16:02

Sarabi wrote:
I looked at my eggs and they had a two on them. I'm glad it wasn't three :wink:

That doesn't impress me. Many cage-free chickens are still mistreated, having their beaks seared off because they still live in cramped quarters. To be happy about that would be like saying I'm glad someone was tortured by Americans rather than in Auschwitz. There is a difference, but it's hardly rosy.

Sarabi wrote:Of course, I prefer one would eat an animal who was killed painlessly than painfully,

You're kind of contradicting yourself... Either eating "ethical" meat & egg products is morally better in your opinion, or it makes no difference. And the first quote is, I guess, exactly what others here meant when talking about far-flung heated arguments; it also what I meant when I wrote previously that some ideologists have an extreme "all-or-nothing" attitude regarding their ideology, and scorn any small step towards it (e.g. small reduction in the suffering of farm animals) as long as it doesn't reach their exact stands.

P.S. I'd certainly prefer animals were slaughtered under anesthesia. But I suppose this is too "expensive" and would only happens if consumers manage to employ massive pressure. And it won't happen easily in Israel due to religious edicts :x

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Re: Meat-eating and the industry

Postby KingHarvest » 2008-10-27, 16:28

I try to have a look at where my other stuff comes from as well, but mainly for human rights reasons. (I'm horrible, I know.)


So only if it's convenient for you do you go and look at the processing site for other things but for meat, but not for plant matter evidently, it's a must?

2.) Because we're talking about living beings here. Maybe the distance between production and product has only made industrial killing possible.


Bullshit. Public executions and torture of people used to be a source of entertainment, cats were tortured in public in the middle ages because they were thought to be Satanic, Greeks and Romans slit the throats of bulls and cows and let them slowly bleed to death in public for sacrifices and divination. Cato the Elder recommended that human slaves be worked their entire lives and then sold off as soon as they could no longer do physical toil, even if it meant separating them from their families. I can't help but think that Aristotle was right when he said that the only thing that would end slavery would be automation. Modern morals and ethics are a convenience of first world people who live comfortable lives and never have to really test their morals.
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Re: Meat-eating and the industry

Postby linguaholic » 2008-10-27, 16:44

So only if it's convenient for you do you go and look at the processing site for other things but for meat, but not for plant matter evidently, it's a must?

Sorry, I don't understand this sentence. Could you put it differently, please?

As for human cruelty, you have a point.
Modern morals and ethics are a convenience of first world people who live comfortable lives and never have to really test their morals.

Does that make it a bad thing?
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Re: Meat-eating and the industry

Postby HerrFraeulein » 2008-10-27, 17:51

linguaholic wrote:
Modern morals and ethics are a convenience of first world people who live comfortable lives and never have to really test their morals.

Does that make it a bad thing?


Hear hear! I'm tempted to retort: modern morals and ethics are the reason people like kingharvest can sit safely on their lazy behinds (much like me :mrgreen:) and say stuff like "modern morals and ethics are a convenience of first world people who live comfortable lives and never have to really test their morals" without basically having to continuously worry about making it through the day to begin with.

You often see people invoke, say, the fortuitous, incidental nature of our civilisation as an argument to deny animals its fruits. The central question would seem to me: why is it wrong to extend the boon of civilisation to animals, if it's not to profit from it yourself? :hmm:
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Re: Meat-eating and the industry

Postby HerrFraeulein » 2008-10-27, 17:59

DelBoy wrote:Science can tell us that animals have a different experience to humans, and good animal welfare should keep this in mind - we should try to give cows the best life possible as a cow, not as a human. We shouldn't apply terms that, as far as we can tell, only relate to human experience to that of animals. This is unfair to the animals.
(by the way, when I say 'humans' and 'animals', I'm not saying that humans are not animals - we are. By 'animals' I mean non-human animals.)


Without wanting to plunge into the material discussion about how similar or dissimilar humans and other animals are, isn't it just a wee bit suspicious when humans, in their valiant efforts to unravel this world's mysteries in, of course, an entirely impartial and unbiased enterprise, just so happen to "discover" that, among all animals -who, between themselves, are pretty much entirely interchangeable, naturally; after all, they're...non-human animals-, the only ones to really be different, special and relevant, are...humans?

Nahhh. :nope: :partyhat:
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Re: Meat-eating and the industry

Postby KingHarvest » 2008-10-27, 19:09

Sorry, I don't understand this sentence. Could you put it differently, please?


I'm saying that I think it's hypocritical to demand that people go see and/or have a hand in animal slaughter and demand it of nothing else. The whole backbone of our society is that we're much more productive if we don't have to have a hand in producing absolutely everything that we use or consume. Not to mention, as far as I can tell from my friends who study government, environmental science, and who go to chef schools, organic and such doesn't really mean anything, it is pretty much just an excuse to raise the price on foodstuffs. The only real way to prevent suffering of other creatures is to do absolutely everything you need to survive yourself.

Does that make it a bad thing?


No, I'm saying they're largely utopian and will be largely un-utilitarian to actually apply to the world. And I'm also responding to a belief that annoys me that the Industrial Revolution has somehow changed human cruelty for better or worse.

Hear hear! I'm tempted to retort: modern morals and ethics are the reason people like kingharvest can sit safely on their lazy behinds (much like me :mrgreen:) and say stuff like "modern morals and ethics are a convenience of first world people who live comfortable lives and never have to really test their morals" without basically having to continuously worry about making it through the day to begin with.


No, I'm able to sit here and say this free from harm because random homicidal tendencies aren't built into social animals.
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Re: Meat-eating and the industry

Postby linguaholic » 2008-10-27, 19:27

I'm saying that I think it's hypocritical to demand that people go see and/or have a hand in animal slaughter and demand it of nothing else.


I didn't mean to say that. I just meant that we should at least know where our stuff comes from (and, ideally, care).

And I'm also responding to a belief that annoys me that the Industrial Revolution has somehow changed human cruelty for better or worse.


Yep, got it.
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Re: Meat-eating and the industry

Postby Varislintu » 2008-10-27, 19:28

KingHarvest wrote:organic and such doesn't really mean anything, it is pretty much just an excuse to raise the price on foodstuffs.


As far as I know, organic chicken farms are very different from battery farms, and are required to be so by the authority that issues/controls the organic label. This is what Finnish "organic eggs" mean for chickens:

Luomukananmunat tuotetaan voimassaolevien luonnonmukaisen kotieläintuotannon tuotantoehtojen mukaisesti. Luomukanala on lattiakanala, jossa kanat voivat liikkua vapaana ja käyttäytyä lajilleen luontaiseen tapaan. Kanalat ovat tyypiltään kuivikepohjaisia kestopehkukanaloita tai osaritiläkanaloita, joissa kanalan lattiapinta-alasta vähintään puolet on pehkun ja hiekan tms. peittämää aluetta. Luomukanaloissa on myös ikkunat, orret ja virikkeitä kanoille kuten jyviä pehkun seasta etsittäväksi. Kesäaikaan kanoilla on käytössään ulkotarha. Kukot pitävät järjestystä. Kanat saavat ruoaksi luomuviljeltyä ohraa, kauraa ja hernettä sekä jonkinverran heinää, olkea ja juureksia. Mitään keinotekoisia lisäaineita ei anneta.


I.e.:

- floor farm with free movement
- half the surface area covered by litter/sand
- have windows
- have "stimulus", like grains hidden to be sought by the chickens
- in summertime possibility to be outside
- have roosters
- eat organic feed

(Also, there can be five chickens per square meter, and each flock is restricted to 3000 chicken.)

If all this can be provided and the price is still higher only because it's a clever trick, then we have just proved that there is no economic reason not to provide chickens with better conditions ;) :P.

KingHarvest wrote:The only real way to prevent suffering of other creatures is to do absolutely everything you need to survive yourself.


Personally, I don't even dream of preventing it fully, only steering away from the worst treatments by using education which will hopefully lead to legislation.

KingHarvest wrote:And I'm also responding to a belief that annoys me that the Industrial Revolution has somehow changed human cruelty for better or worse.


Some of us are obviously less cruel than others. I think we should make animal treatment legislation using the less cruel people's views, within reason, of course.


EDIT: And btw, happy birthday to HerrFreuline ;) :partyhat:.
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Re: Meat-eating and the industry

Postby DelBoy » 2008-10-27, 20:06

HerrFraeulein wrote:
DelBoy wrote:Science can tell us that animals have a different experience to humans, and good animal welfare should keep this in mind - we should try to give cows the best life possible as a cow, not as a human. We shouldn't apply terms that, as far as we can tell, only relate to human experience to that of animals. This is unfair to the animals.
(by the way, when I say 'humans' and 'animals', I'm not saying that humans are not animals - we are. By 'animals' I mean non-human animals.)


Without wanting to plunge into the material discussion about how similar or dissimilar humans and other animals are, isn't it just a wee bit suspicious when humans, in their valiant efforts to unravel this world's mysteries in, of course, an entirely impartial and unbiased enterprise, just so happen to "discover" that, among all animals -who, between themselves, are pretty much entirely interchangeable, naturally; after all, they're...non-human animals-, the only ones to really be different, special and relevant, are...humans?

Nahhh. :nope: :partyhat:


Sorry, I'm not sure exactly what you meant.... but I think you misunderstood me - all animals are different. A cow should not have the best life for a horse, nor a pig the best life for a chicken. A dog can never know what the cat's experience is like.
I stress the human and non-human animal part because, after all, we must look at this from a human point of view, and this was what the discussion here was focussed on.
Of course the most relevant animals to humans are humans. Nowhere have I said that other animals are interchangeable.
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Re: Meat-eating and the industry

Postby linguaholic » 2008-10-27, 20:29

But at least 95% of the cows do NOT live the best life for a cow.
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Re: Meat-eating and the industry

Postby Eoghan » 2008-10-27, 20:52

linguaholic wrote:But at least 95% of the cows do NOT live the best life for a cow.


Once again, (even though I agree) that doesn't mean that what we deem a "good life" for a cow would ultimately be a good life for a cow according to cow standards...
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Re: Meat-eating and the industry

Postby linguaholic » 2008-10-27, 22:02

Once again, (even though I agree) that doesn't mean that what we deem a "good life" for a cow would ultimately be a good life for a cow according to cow standards...


But I think we can agree that it is highly unlikely that what we think cow standards may be differs so much from actual cow standards. Of course, cows might really like industrial farming and be very unhappy to stand outside on a meadow all day. You never know.
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Re: Meat-eating and the industry

Postby HerrFraeulein » 2008-10-28, 18:44

Varislintu wrote:
EDIT: And btw, happy birthday to HerrFreuline ;) :partyhat:.


Doh. Thanks! :partyhat:
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Re: Meat-eating and the industry

Postby DelBoy » 2008-10-28, 21:40

linguaholic wrote:But at least 95% of the cows do NOT live the best life for a cow.


Sure, I agree (well, I don't know the numebrs, and I think cows, being perceived as a 'natural' part of the countryside [we expect to see them there, at least in Ireland and Scotland], are not the worst treated animals. Pigs and chickens are much more of an issue in animal welfare I think.)
But I'm saying the measures we base animal welfare on should be centred on the animal in question.
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Re: Meat-eating and the industry

Postby Varislintu » 2008-10-29, 9:26

Eoghan wrote:Once again, (even though I agree) that doesn't mean that what we deem a "good life" for a cow would ultimately be a good life for a cow according to cow standards...


Isn't it true, though, that in practice it's not really "we" (at large) who deem these things? At least I think (and hope) that people whose statements (about what harms/benefits an animal) gain ground in practice are people who've worked with these animals and thus have a better than average understanding of its limits of coping. I'm reminded of Temple Grandin, the autistic woman who according to her own words understands animals much better than people, and ended up advising the American cattle industry in less stressful procedures / designing better machines for them.
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Re: Meat-eating and the industry

Postby BezierCurve » 2008-10-29, 10:26

I'm reminded of Temple Grandin, the autistic woman who according to her own words understands animals much better than people, and ended up advising the American cattle industry in less stressful procedures / designing better machines for them.


That's interesting. Autistic kids are said to get on very well with the animals (there are even special programs for helping those kids - including the company of animals like dogs or horses.) I also heard that dolphins are helpful in this matter. Strangly, my girlfriend, who works with autistic kids says that they (the kids) react positively to doplhin-like sounds and some of them even try to produce similar sounds on their own, though they hardly ever try to communicate at all.
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Re: Meat-eating and the industry

Postby HerrFraeulein » 2008-10-29, 16:48

Intriguing! So would that mean dolphins tend to be autistic? Or that autistic people tend to be like dolphins? :hmm: Ooooh, this stuff makes my head spin. :headbang:
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Re: Meat-eating and the industry

Postby BezierCurve » 2008-10-29, 18:06

I've no idea. I've never been a dolphin, and I'm not autistic. I can only suppose that the hindered speech development that is so common to autistic people is somehow compensated by developing different processes in their minds, which - for some reason - might resemble those of dolphins :?:
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Re: Meat-eating and the industry

Postby DelBoy » 2008-10-29, 18:56

HerrFraeulein wrote:Intriguing! So would that mean dolphins tend to be autistic? Or that autistic people tend to be like dolphins? :hmm: Ooooh, this stuff makes my head spin. :headbang:


Yes, autistic people have unusually high-pitched voices, and are extroardinarily good swimmers. You can sometimes spot them jumping high out of the water in a swimming pool.
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