You. Who are you?

Glowim
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Re: You. Who are you?

Postby Glowim » 2008-08-06, 12:34

Queen Ehlana wrote:Edit: Even though I'm not the only one off-topic, I sort of feel like I've high-jacked this thread. Sorry. I've been on my own personal Buddhist retreat lately, and all I do is meditate and contemplate life.... but I'm not gonna post any more about Buddhism in this thread.

NOOO!!!
In my opinion, those posts weren't so out of topic: we were talking about our identitiy, and how to understand who we are. And you said how you found the answer and how Buddhism helps you avoiding lonilenss feeling.
Anyway, I'll wait for Buddhism thread...

Vogelvrij wrote:The lonelinessthing makes me think of the story of Aristophanes (?) who tells the story about the man/man, man/woman, woman/womanballs that get split up by Zeus. I really like that story and I also think that humans basic condition is loneliness. On the other hand, lots of people really easily feel part of something bigger: family, sport club, country... But I think that this are just ways to cover the loneliness. I also think that it can temporarily be gone when you are in love, but it will keep coming back because well, it's the basic condition, right?

Here another person who think we are alone in this sad sad world...
I like a lot the Aristophanes story, but I disagree with it: I think there is no "twin soul", not a single person made only for another one. (and when I think about my "twin soul"", I wonder if she lives on another planet, far far away from Earth...: this is the reason I like so much astronomy!!!)
Talking about love: how does it influences our identity? Does it help us to know who we are?I think it changes us a lot. If you have someone with you, he/she can really help to know you, explaining his opinion about your acts. And in the meanwhile, as every expirience, it changes us... What do you think about it?

Vogelvrij wrote:I actually only post this to have a legal reason to say how much I like darkina's new avatar. I love those "meneertjes en mevrouwtjes",

I noticed it. And I should be kind and say: "WOW! It's so WONDERFULL!!!" But I would be a bit liar...:( (by the way: what is it? What are ""meneertjes en mevrouwtjes", what does it mean? I searched it on the web but I didn't find nothing - understandable for me...)

darkina wrote: am still thinking of writing a bit on it but have had not time yet. I quickly read your post (I'm at work now, no time)

I'm at work too, but I decided to find the time...;) Actually, I'm alone in the room this days (and I feel soooo well!!!!), and this brings me a "vacation feeling"... Hoping my bosses won't notice it!
Please, correct my errors!

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Re: You. Who are you?

Postby Hoogstwaarschijnlijk » 2008-08-06, 13:24

Glowim wrote:NOOO!!!
In my opinion, those posts weren't so out of topic: we were talking about our identitiy, and how to understand who we are. And you said how you found the answer and how Buddhism helps you avoiding lonilenss feeling.
Anyway, I'll wait for Buddhism thread...

Agreed :) Identity is such a big topic, it is nice to see how this topic goes from this to that :D

Vogelvrij wrote:The lonelinessthing makes me think of the story of Aristophanes (?) who tells the story about the man/man, man/woman, woman/womanballs that get split up by Zeus. I really like that story and I also think that humans basic condition is loneliness. On the other hand, lots of people really easily feel part of something bigger: family, sport club, country... But I think that this are just ways to cover the loneliness. I also think that it can temporarily be gone when you are in love, but it will keep coming back because well, it's the basic condition, right?
Glowim wrote:Here another person who think we are alone in this sad sad world...
I like a lot the Aristophanes story, but I disagree with it: I think there is no "twin soul", not a single person made only for another one. (and when I think about my "twin soul"", I wonder if she lives on another planet, far far away from Earth...: this is the reason I like so much astronomy!!!)
Talking about love: how does it influences our identity? Does it help us to know who we are?I think it changes us a lot. If you have someone with you, he/she can really help to know you, explaining his opinion about your acts. And in the meanwhile, as every expirience, it changes us... What do you think about it?


I also don't really think there's a "twin soul", but it's a nice thought. And besides, I'm not sure if the story tells us that we will find our twin souls, the point is more that we keep looking for it, right? And that's a true point, most people spend ages with trying to find their true love. And some people seem to find it, don't they? And a lot of people don't and a lot of people find love but wouldn't really say that this person is their twin soul.
Love definitaly changes your identity indeed, just because it's a big part of life, most people are thinking about it a lot, so it's important. Also when you look at it very practical: your identity will be so different if you fall in love on your sixtheenth, will get married on your twentieth and have two children and stuff, than if you fall in love every year at another person, visit other countries and experience the weirdest and greatest things. But on the other hand, maybe your identity makes us do that :s But, at least it's true that when you're in a relationship, there will be someone very close to you and gives you another vision about yourself and that can be very learnful (is that a word?).

Vogelvrij wrote:I actually only post this to have a legal reason to say how much I like darkina's new avatar. I love those "meneertjes en mevrouwtjes",
Glowim wrote:I noticed it. And I should be kind and say: "WOW! It's so WONDERFULL!!!" But I would be a bit liar...:( (by the way: what is it? What are ""meneertjes en mevrouwtjes", what does it mean? I searched it on the web but I didn't find nothing - understandable for me...)



omg you don't know the books of Roger Hargreaves (yes, I had to look that up), what a shame for you. They are so funny and cute :) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Hargreaves
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Re: You. Who are you?

Postby Glowim » 2008-08-06, 21:26

Vogelvrij wrote:And that's a true point, most people spend ages with trying to find their true love. And some people seem to find it, don't they? And a lot of people don't and a lot of people find love but wouldn't really say that this person is their twin soul.

... and there's also people who, tired to look for love for ages, decide to stay with someone just for loneliness... And they marry him or her... I've seen a lot of these situations...:(
(but why in the hell do I have to write always sad posts and sad thoughts?!?)
Vogelvrij wrote:will get married on your twentieth and have two children and stuff

Here, another thing that make me feel old... :(
In these months, a lot of friends of mine are going to have children, are going to marry (saturday I have to go to a wedding). And I feel VEEEEERY old!!!!

Vogelvrij wrote:omg you don't know the books of Roger Hargreaves (yes, I had to look that up), what a shame for you. They are so funny and cute :) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Hargreaves

:oops: :oops: :oops:
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Re: You. Who are you?

Postby Sarabi » 2008-08-06, 23:13

Glowim wrote:Anyway, I'll wait for Buddhism thread...


Don't wait around because I don't intend to ever mention 'Buddhism' again on this board. I have just been proven to be very foolish (and novice!) to dare to talk about my deepest beliefs to people with only an outside "interest". It is already impossible to talk about it to people with an inside perspective.

Note to self:
Don't look for things. Don't shortsight your goal or be myopic about your philosophy. Just practice. Just practice!

Thank you, Vogelivrij and Glowim, for the respectful discussion. :hug: And thanks, darky, for trying. I forgive you and I'm sorry... this is really silly, you know.

"To forgive is to set a person free and discover that you were the prisoner."

See ya.
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Re: You. Who are you?

Postby Hoogstwaarschijnlijk » 2008-08-07, 8:04

Glowim wrote:
Vogelvrij wrote:And that's a true point, most people spend ages with trying to find their true love. And some people seem to find it, don't they? And a lot of people don't and a lot of people find love but wouldn't really say that this person is their twin soul.

... and there's also people who, tired to look for love for ages, decide to stay with someone just for loneliness... And they marry him or her... I've seen a lot of these situations...:(
(but why in the hell do I have to write always sad posts and sad thoughts?!?)
Vogelvrij wrote:will get married on your twentieth and have two children and stuff

Here, another thing that make me feel old... :(
In these months, a lot of friends of mine are going to have children, are going to marry (saturday I have to go to a wedding). And I feel VEEEEERY old!!!!

Vogelvrij wrote:omg you don't know the books of Roger Hargreaves (yes, I had to look that up), what a shame for you. They are so funny and cute :) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Hargreaves

:oops: :oops: :oops:
I promise i will study...


Omg the first thing you mention makes me nervous, hehe. But then I think: why is it a sad situation to stay with someone just because you don't want to be lonely? If it's your own choice, it can't be wrong, if you stay, there has to be something good in it, right? I don't think everyone can experience Great Love in their life, that's just what western thought wants us to belief us.

And don't feel old! What I was trying to say, is that the first option isn't better then the second. Do you really think people who marry so young are much happier than you? Because I certainly think that that's not true, they just have a different kind of life. Why would it be a better one? They are all attached and bound and I don't know, they have to pay attention that everyone is happy and stuff.

@Queen Ehlana: I have the feeling I need someone to say to you, for example that you're such a courage and great person, but I don't really know what to say because I haven't really read all the posts about Bhuddism because they were a bit too difficult for me...
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Re: You. Who are you?

Postby Glowim » 2008-08-07, 13:14

Vogelvrij wrote:Omg the first thing you mention makes me nervous, hehe. But then I think: why is it a sad situation to stay with someone just because you don't want to be lonely?

Because a relationship should be based on love, not on the afraid of lonenliness.

Vogelvrij wrote:If it's your own choice, it can't be wrong, if you stay, there has to be something good in it, right?

This (out of) topic is very complex.. Well, it can be wrong: if you are not in love of your partner, but he/she is in love of you, you are liying to him/her. And that's wrong. Sometimes, moreover, you can think to be in love, you can lying to yourself, just because you don't know yourself, you don't know who you are what you really want (a short come back to the thread topic!!! :) ). And, again, I think it is wrong, because you cannot be happy in this way. If you and your partner are agree to stay togheter for lonilenss, well, in this situation it's ok. But I think it doesn't happen so often.

Vogelvrij wrote:I don't think everyone can experience Great Love in their life, that's just what western thought wants us to belief us.

You are right. But I think we shouldn't stop to look for it (if we want it). As you said about Aristophanes: peraphs that story just teachs it: we should never stop to search for our twin soul: just beacuse love it is the best thing in this world, and despite on all the pain you can suffer, it worth all the time you spend in your serach. Even if you don't find it. If you stop, it seems to me you are be deafeted by your life.

Vogelvrij wrote:And don't feel old! What I was trying to say, is that the first option isn't better then the second. Do you really think people who marry so young are much happier than you?

Eeeehhh... Yes!!!! ;)

Vogelvrij wrote: Because I certainly think that that's not true, they just have a different kind of life. Why would it be a better one? They are all attached and bound and I don't know, they have to pay attention that everyone is happy and stuff.

Seriously. It depends on what you want from your life. If you want to be alone, or to not have any strong link, or to have several "light" relationship, I agree with you: you can live very well, you can be stronlgy happier than some (many) married person. I repeat: it depends on what you want. And what I want is... too out of topic!!! ;)

Queen Ehlena wrote: I have just been proven to be very foolish (and novice!) to dare to talk about my deepest beliefs to people with only an outside "interest". It is already impossible to talk about it to people with an inside perspective.

It is never fool to explain your deepest beliefs. It was a pleasure comparing my opinion with yours.

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Re: You. Who are you?

Postby Hoogstwaarschijnlijk » 2008-08-07, 18:08

Glowim, seriously, I think you are just a lot more romantic than I am. I think I agree on the love part, but on the other hand I think love is too difficult concept to whine about, just live your life and if there's someone nice who wants to share their life with you, why not? But a relationship based on fear isn't perfect, I agree with that.

You're talking about lying to oneself and that's an interesting thing. Because I tend to think that you can't lie to yourself: what you say to yourself, is how you want to see yourself and therefore it is who you are. Like: if you keep telling yourself you're a nice person and you really think so, then it feels like a part of your identity, right?
But I know that this isn't true, there seems to be something deep inside us where there's some kind of hidden truth, wether I want to believe in such thing or not. And if we lie to ourself, it comes back in all kind of stupid things (stomach aches :( )
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Re: You. Who are you?

Postby darkina » 2008-08-08, 21:38

Glowim"
[quote]
:D
Ok, but I'm an atheist. So...
[/quote]
...so your destiny is to feel that loneliness. :?
[/quote]

I know. But to me that's how reality is and I can't feel like believing in a religion just to comfort myself...

[quote="Vogelvrij wrote:
I also think that it can temporarily be gone when you are in love, but it will keep coming back because well, it's the basic condition, right?


I don't know, maybe that's an illusion too, but I don't know if I've ever been really in love, certainly not mutual. But yes in my theory it comes back, maybe even while you are with that person.

Vogelvrij wrote:I actually only post this to have a legal reason to say how much I like darkina's new avatar. I love those "meneertjes en mevrouwtjes", we had books of them and I still remember that when I was on holiday in England we had pasta that looked like them :D England is so great. I also saw someone wear a T-shirt of it on television and now I want one too but I don't know where to buy it (in the Netherlands).


Thanks :D I bought myself that book for 99p (hm in euros? 1,50 maybe?). To remind myself of how naughty I am lol :P

Glowim: they're little books for children :D I didn't know they had them outside of the UK! :shock:

Talking about love: how does it influences our identity? Does it help us to know who we are?I think it changes us a lot. If you have someone with you, he/she can really help to know you, explaining his opinion about your acts. And in the meanwhile, as every expirience, it changes us... What do you think about it?


I don't know, I am not really sure I want to talk about it.
Maybe it influences us but not always in the right way, how much of us is our "real" self and how much do we absorb from the other person? If you're with someone who likes, say, climbing, you will get into climbing and then when you leave him you think why the hell did I spend so much time climbing, I find it boring ;)
And yes I don't think there's one and only one "other half", and if there is, or there's a few, how do you find him/her/them among 6 billion people?

I'm at work too, but I decided to find the time...;) Actually, I'm alone in the room this days (and I feel soooo well!!!!), and this brings me a "vacation feeling"... Hoping my bosses won't notice it!


We're only allowed to use the internet between 12 and 2 so I don't want to get into conversations. I also don't like to use forums when I'm not at home, but I do sometimes because these days I'm so bored... it feels like summer even here, not much to do.

Vogelvrij wrote: and that can be very learnful (is that a word?).


I doubt it's a word but I like it and it gets the point across perfectly :D

Glowim wrote:
Vogelvrij wrote:will get married on your twentieth and have two children and stuff

Here, another thing that make me feel old... :(
In these months, a lot of friends of mine are going to have children, are going to marry (saturday I have to go to a wedding). And I feel VEEEEERY old!!!!


Same here. My best friend is getting married soon. I don't feel old for that reason, I wouldn't want to marry or have children, especially now, but I feel very confused and :headbang:

Omg the first thing you mention makes me nervous, hehe. But then I think: why is it a sad situation to stay with someone just because you don't want to be lonely? If it's your own choice, it can't be wrong, if you stay, there has to be something good in it, right?


Well people can do what they want but I think it's a bit wrong. You link yourself to someone for fear, and don't go and explore the world. And it's not worth stopping just for fear of challenging yourself...

I don't think everyone can experience Great Love in their life, that's just what western thought wants us to belief


Thanks :headbang: I'm still very touchy about this issue :headbang:

And don't feel old! What I was trying to say, is that the first option isn't better then the second. Do you really think people who marry so young are much happier than you? Because I certainly think that that's not true, they just have a different kind of life. Why would it be a better one? They are all attached and bound and I don't know, they have to pay attention that everyone is happy and stuff.


I am also puzzled about people marrying really young, because - and this is back on topic - I think at 20 you're a very different person than at 30, and settling so young you don't give yourself the chance to fully develop. I have seen a lot of people in their 30s regretting having been in a big relationship in their 20s, and not having done the silly things you do at 20, because they were too busy with one person (and I don't mean sleeping around, I mean travelling and living an independent life). My love life might be s**t but at least I made up for it by travelling and living different experiences...

You're talking about lying to oneself and that's an interesting thing. Because I tend to think that you can't lie to yourself: what you say to yourself, is how you want to see yourself and therefore it is who you are. Like: if you keep telling yourself you're a nice person and you really think so, then it feels like a part of your identity, right?
But I know that this isn't true, there seems to be something deep inside us where there's some kind of hidden truth, wether I want to believe in such thing or not. And if we lie to ourself, it comes back in all kind of stupid things (stomach aches :( )


And finally, back on topic!!! :woohoo: ;)
This was precisely my point at the beginning. Is it true that you can't lie to yourself???

Sometimes I want something but I try to convince myself that I don't want it, because for external reasons I think it's wrong, but when I started doing it I realise that I started because deep down I wanted it and I can't be stopped once started... (example: going to study in the UK)
But at the same time I wonder, is it true that deep down I want it, or am I fooling myself?
Would another person's opinion matter, or they don't know enough to be able to assess the situation perfectly?
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Re: You. Who are you?

Postby darkina » 2008-08-08, 21:40

Glowim"
[quote]
:D
Ok, but I'm an atheist. So...
[/quote]
...so your destiny is to feel that loneliness. :?
[/quote]

I know. But to me that's how reality is and I can't feel like believing in a religion just to comfort myself...

[quote="Vogelvrij wrote:
I also think that it can temporarily be gone when you are in love, but it will keep coming back because well, it's the basic condition, right?


I don't know, maybe that's an illusion too, but I don't know if I've ever been really in love, certainly not mutual. But yes in my theory it comes back, maybe even while you are with that person.

Vogelvrij wrote:I actually only post this to have a legal reason to say how much I like darkina's new avatar. I love those "meneertjes en mevrouwtjes", we had books of them and I still remember that when I was on holiday in England we had pasta that looked like them :D England is so great. I also saw someone wear a T-shirt of it on television and now I want one too but I don't know where to buy it (in the Netherlands).


Thanks :D I bought myself that book for 99p (hm in euros? 1,50 maybe?). To remind myself of how naughty I am lol :P

Glowim: they're little books for children :D I didn't know they had them outside of the UK! :shock:

Talking about love: how does it influences our identity? Does it help us to know who we are?I think it changes us a lot. If you have someone with you, he/she can really help to know you, explaining his opinion about your acts. And in the meanwhile, as every expirience, it changes us... What do you think about it?


I don't know, I am not really sure I want to talk about it.
Maybe it influences us but not always in the right way, how much of us is our "real" self and how much do we absorb from the other person? If you're with someone who likes, say, climbing, you will get into climbing and then when you leave him you think why the hell did I spend so much time climbing, I find it boring ;)
And yes I don't think there's one and only one "other half", and if there is, or there's a few, how do you find him/her/them among 6 billion people?

I'm at work too, but I decided to find the time...;) Actually, I'm alone in the room this days (and I feel soooo well!!!!), and this brings me a "vacation feeling"... Hoping my bosses won't notice it!


We're only allowed to use the internet between 12 and 2 so I don't want to get into conversations. I also don't like to use forums when I'm not at home, but I do sometimes because these days I'm so bored... it feels like summer even here, not much to do.

Vogelvrij wrote: and that can be very learnful (is that a word?).


I doubt it's a word but I like it and it gets the point across perfectly :D

Glowim wrote:
Vogelvrij wrote:will get married on your twentieth and have two children and stuff

Here, another thing that make me feel old... :(
In these months, a lot of friends of mine are going to have children, are going to marry (saturday I have to go to a wedding). And I feel VEEEEERY old!!!!


Same here. My best friend is getting married soon. I don't feel old for that reason, I wouldn't want to marry or have children, especially now, but I feel very confused and :headbang:

Omg the first thing you mention makes me nervous, hehe. But then I think: why is it a sad situation to stay with someone just because you don't want to be lonely? If it's your own choice, it can't be wrong, if you stay, there has to be something good in it, right?


Well people can do what they want but I think it's a bit wrong. You link yourself to someone for fear, and don't go and explore the world. And it's not worth stopping just for fear of challenging yourself...

I don't think everyone can experience Great Love in their life, that's just what western thought wants us to belief


Thanks :headbang: I'm still very touchy about this issue :headbang:

And don't feel old! What I was trying to say, is that the first option isn't better then the second. Do you really think people who marry so young are much happier than you? Because I certainly think that that's not true, they just have a different kind of life. Why would it be a better one? They are all attached and bound and I don't know, they have to pay attention that everyone is happy and stuff.


I am also puzzled about people marrying really young, because - and this is back on topic - I think at 20 you're a very different person than at 30, and settling so young you don't give yourself the chance to fully develop. I have seen a lot of people in their 30s regretting having been in a big relationship in their 20s, and not having done the silly things you do at 20, because they were too busy with one person (and I don't mean sleeping around, I mean travelling and living an independent life). My love life might be s**t but at least I made up for it by travelling and living different experiences...

You're talking about lying to oneself and that's an interesting thing. Because I tend to think that you can't lie to yourself: what you say to yourself, is how you want to see yourself and therefore it is who you are. Like: if you keep telling yourself you're a nice person and you really think so, then it feels like a part of your identity, right?
But I know that this isn't true, there seems to be something deep inside us where there's some kind of hidden truth, wether I want to believe in such thing or not. And if we lie to ourself, it comes back in all kind of stupid things (stomach aches :( )


And finally, back on topic!!! :woohoo: ;)
This was precisely my point at the beginning. Is it true that you can't lie to yourself???

Sometimes I want something but I try to convince myself that I don't want it, because for external reasons I think it's wrong, but when I started doing it I realise that I started because deep down I wanted it and I can't be stopped once started... (example: going to study in the UK)
But at the same time I wonder, is it true that deep down I want it, or am I fooling myself?
Would another person's opinion matter, or they don't know enough to be able to assess the situation perfectly?

Queen Ehlana wrote:Thank you, Vogelivrij and Glowim, for the respectful discussion. :hug: And thanks, darky, for trying. I forgive you and I'm sorry... this is really silly, you know.


Well thanks for trying but I still think you should respect people wanting to know it from outside, which is still better than people judging without knowing. Anyway I understand your points and I only think that you will feel differently once you're more advanced in your own discovery, which I have heard is very long and difficult - so definitely not something for someone with a fear of commitment like me.
век живи, век учись, а дураком помрешь

Pleasures remain, so does the pain

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Re: You. Who are you?

Postby Hoogstwaarschijnlijk » 2008-08-09, 8:19

darkina wrote:
Thanks :D I bought myself that book for 99p (hm in euros? 1,50 maybe?). To remind myself of how naughty I am lol :P

Glowim: they're little books for children :D I didn't know they had them outside of the UK! :shock:

Vogelvrij wrote: and that can be very learnful (is that a word?).


I doubt it's a word but I like it and it gets the point across perfectly :D



You're talking about lying to oneself and that's an interesting thing. Because I tend to think that you can't lie to yourself: what you say to yourself, is how you want to see yourself and therefore it is who you are. Like: if you keep telling yourself you're a nice person and you really think so, then it feels like a part of your identity, right?
But I know that this isn't true, there seems to be something deep inside us where there's some kind of hidden truth, wether I want to believe in such thing or not. And if we lie to ourself, it comes back in all kind of stupid things (stomach aches :( )


And finally, back on topic!!! :woohoo: ;)
This was precisely my point at the beginning. Is it true that you can't lie to yourself???

Sometimes I want something but I try to convince myself that I don't want it, because for external reasons I think it's wrong, but when I started doing it I realise that I started because deep down I wanted it and I can't be stopped once started... (example: going to study in the UK)
But at the same time I wonder, is it true that deep down I want it, or am I fooling myself?
Would another person's opinion matter, or they don't know enough to be able to assess the situation perfectly?


I'm sure I'm messing up all the quotes again but I'm not as good with that as you all, so well :oops:

1. I looked at wikipedia about the books and there are really a lot in English, few of them are translated in Dutch, but I also saw that a lot have been translated in French :) I'm glad they have been translated!

2. leerzaam in Dutch, it is a very useful word :D

3. I wanted to say more about the lovething but I think it's too personal for us and just making us frustrated and/or nervous, so let's just say it's a difficult thing :wink:

4. I'm not sure if I understand you correctly here... But do you think external reasons are less trustworthy than internal reasons? How can you seperate them? How do you know you want something? Because I'm always very lost. I can't trust on myself, I don't know how to know what I want except by waiting if I'm going to throw up by the thought of doing it, or if I stay healthy. And I hate that, I don't want to pay attention to my stomach, I want to have reasonable reasons for doing something, so therefore I look at the external reasons, because they are logical and if I say often enough that they are right, they have to be right. Who is my stomach to think his opinion is best?
(okay I am frustrated about this too, identity is just a personal matter it seems :P)
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Re: You. Who are you?

Postby darkina » 2008-08-09, 9:49

Vogelvrij wrote:
4. I'm not sure if I understand you correctly here... But do you think external reasons are less trustworthy than internal reasons? How can you seperate them?


That is exactly my question.

How do you know you want something?


Same as above. I never know if I really want something or I think I want it but it's not true. So I don't know what I really want and I get stuck all the time. Pretty much as you say.

Ok let's make the specific example that led me to create this topic. There's something I might want to do with my life, but it's a big decision and there are so many factors, some are good, some are not, like everything else, so I don't know if I should choose that path or another one.
One reason why I might not want it is that I don't feel it's "me". I feel I should be another kind of person to fit well in that context.
I was talking about it with a friend of mine and he said I should do it because, he said "it's so you" :shock: So I realised he sees me as fitting in that kind of life, while I don't. Who is right? Me, because I am me, but I am held by all forms of repressions and doubts, or he, because he sees me from outside with no frills?

Example number 2. There's this person I have had an intense friendship and an intense "argument" with. I think I see him as "better" than he actually is, and certainly different from how he sees himself. But he also sees things about me that I think are wrong. Is he right, and am I like he sees me, or did I somehow give a wrong impression of me, or is he somehow prejudiced?

:hmm:
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Re: You. Who are you?

Postby hreru » 2008-08-09, 10:11

darkina wrote:One reason why I might not want it is that I don't feel it's "me". I feel I should be another kind of person to fit well in that context.
I was talking about it with a friend of mine and he said I should do it because, he said "it's so you" :shock: So I realised he sees me as fitting in that kind of life, while I don't. Who is right? Me, because I am me, but I am held by all forms of repressions and doubts, or he, because he sees me from outside with no frills?

I'm afraid the only way how to get an aswer for this is to make that step and than after some time you can judge if you feel like it's you or not, so you will be able to look back and tell who was right. Of course, it won't help you too much because it'll tell you only if you or someone else was right in this very case, not generally; and second you still won't be able to tell if choosing an alternative possibility would have fit you better for you chose to try this particular one. :bummer:
To me the sense of any variations on "who am I" question is not to have it answered but to ask it. Being faithful to this opinion, I gave you an answer that doesn't answer anything. :P

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Re: You. Who are you?

Postby Glowim » 2008-08-09, 13:05

Vogelvrij wrote:You're talking about lying to oneself and that's an interesting thing. Because I tend to think that you can't lie to yourself: what you say to yourself, is how you want to see yourself and therefore it is who you are. Like: if you keep telling yourself you're a nice person and you really think so, then it feels like a part of your identity, right?

Believe me: it's very easy to lie to yourself. In my opinion, often it's hader than being honest with yourself. I know some good example, but I don't want to talk about them: it's too long..[

darkina wrote:Glowim: they're little books for children :D I didn't know they had them outside of the UK! :shock:

Oh, well!So my ignorance is well justified! No shame on me!!! ;)

darkina wrote:Maybe it influences us but not always in the right way, how much of us is our "real" self and how much do we absorb from the other person? If you're with someone who likes, say, climbing, you will get into climbing and then when you leave him you think why the hell did I spend so much time climbing, I find it boring ;)

Well, when I do something for some relationship reason, I know why I'm doing that. Example: I hate dance, but if I'm with some girl that love it, I can go obviously.. But I know, and she knows, that I don't love it and that I do it just for her. But, who knows, the next time peraphs, when she'll go to dance, I will have a drink with some friend of mine. What I mean is: we should never force (to much) ourself, for no reason. And we should never change ourself for noone.

darkina wrote:And yes I don't think there's one and only one "other half", and if there is, or there's a few, how do you find him/her/them among 6 billion people?

With a huge amout of lucky. By myself, I have just bought a telescope...

darkina wrote:I know. But to me that's how reality is and I can't feel like believing in a religion just to comfort myself...

Oh, but I don't want to convince you to believe. Moreover, how can I? I should just be a believer! Anyway, obvsiously you cannot believe just because it's comfortable. Even if (I think) religions have been invented just because humans need that comfort..: so, probably, it's an human being don't know the answer to "Who am I?"

darkina wrote:... it feels like summer even here, not much to do.

My problem is: I have a lot to do! Wednesnday I went out from office at 19.30, and they don't pay me the overtime...:(

darkina wrote:because - and this is back on topic - I think at 20 you're a very different person than at 30, and settling so young you don't give yourself the chance to fully develop.

Partial disagree. It depends on your life. I mean: for me it's true, but I think a big difference is how much you live as a student, and when you "set your head ok" ("Metti la testa a posto": how in the hell do you translate that?!?). Some decades ago, it was so common marrying soon (at twenty), but now it isn't. And the difference is how much people usually study.

Vogelvrij wrote:3. I wanted to say more about the lovething but I think it's too personal for us and just making us frustrated and/or nervous, so let's just say it's a difficult thing :wink:

Actually, it seems to be a very sensitive subject (to me, too). Sorry for having touched that argument, but I think it's an important issue about "identity"..

Oh, now it's going to be late... I'll continue to anwser to other posts later..or tomorrow.. or I don't know when, but I'll do it!
Please, correct my errors!

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Re: You. Who are you?

Postby Hoogstwaarschijnlijk » 2008-08-09, 17:16

Darkina: Okay, so we understand each other now, we have the same questions. I don't have an answer really, but I'm going to think about it a bit more :) But with your first example... No one is really 'right', do you think? You pay attention on different characterthings of yourself than your friend, for example. You have different versions. Difficult to say whose one is more true. I am not certain if that is the point, the point is which dicision you should make, what will make you happier? (and how can you know before making the diciscion?)

@Glowim: Of course it is easier to lie, because we don't know what the truth is, so we just guess a bit around and hope the thing we want it to be is the truth :wink:
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Re: You. Who are you?

Postby darkina » 2008-08-09, 19:55

hreru wrote:I'm afraid the only way how to get an aswer for this is to make that step and than after some time you can judge if you feel like it's you or not, so you will be able to look back and tell who was right. Of course, it won't help you too much because it'll tell you only if you or someone else was right in this very case, not generally; and second you still won't be able to tell if choosing an alternative possibility would have fit you better for you chose to try this particular one. :bummer:
To me the sense of any variations on "who am I" question is not to have it answered but to ask it. Being faithful to this opinion, I gave you an answer that doesn't answer anything. :P


Perfectly fitting logic, nothing to add... :P

Glowim wrote:
darkina wrote:because - and this is back on topic - I think at 20 you're a very different person than at 30, and settling so young you don't give yourself the chance to fully develop.

Partial disagree. It depends on your life. I mean: for me it's true, but I think a big difference is how much you live as a student, and when you "set your head ok" ("Metti la testa a posto": how in the hell do you translate that?!?). Some decades ago, it was so common marrying soon (at twenty), but now it isn't. And the difference is how much people usually study.


("mettere la testa a posto": non ho mai, mai, mai trovato un modo soddisfacente di tradurlo!!!)
I don't totally agree, of course studying for long is different than getting married at 20, but still I think that getting married so young you'd kind of "halt" your development and never go and discover where life could potentially lead you. Which is fair enough as a choice, but not a choice I would do or recommend doing, from my point of view.

Vogelvrij wrote:No one is really 'right', do you think? You pay attention on different characterthings of yourself than your friend, for example. You have different versions. Difficult to say whose one is more true.


Yes that's probably the only answer, but I was wondering what if this answer is not really true. Of course it's the only one we can have, but not necessarily the correct one. And well, what is the truth after all... who knows... ;)

I am not certain if that is the point, the point is which dicision you should make, what will make you happier? (and how can you know before making the diciscion?)


Yup, but this thread is not about (my) decisions, this thread is about the question that came to my mind during that conversation :D
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Re: You. Who are you?

Postby linguaholic » 2008-08-10, 12:12

Apparently the "love thing" seems to be an important but sensitive issue. I hope it's okay if I write a few sentences on that topic nevertheless. In my opinion, there is no "second half". I am quoting somebody else: "You are whole. Another person can only extend your wholeness." That doesn't mean that you cannot find a person to share your life and be very happy with but it means that if you are not a whole person by yourself, nobody else will be able to make you "whole" either. (Sometimes hard not only to know but also to feel ... I'm still trying to internalize it.)
Also, I think that "Great Love" is not something made by fate, two people who just fit and stay glued to each other magically. To me, "Great Love" is about loving somebody so much that you are willing to be with that person, to open up your life for him/her and to be genuinely interestend in his/her life as well. About being ready to really work on your relationship, to get through difficulties, accepting things about the other person even if it might not be easy for you. And of course about not being so set on all this that you are only rational and controlled by your will, but about being gentle and loving. And about being able to let go if you both find out it really won't work out. More about commitment than about fate.

About making decisions/wanting: Another quote I find very important is "It is not enough to want something.You must choose it."

@darkina: Of course I don't know what your "decision problem" is about exactly, but isn't your point of view the more important one? Because YOU are the one who will have to live with your decision and it's no use if somebody else thinks it's "you" if you feel wrong. Then again, if you have a feeling that it's not really your inner core that tells you it's not right but just doubts and fears, maybe you should just jump into the cold water and go for it? Gosh, I shouldn't write anything that sounds like advice on a topic I know nothing about. :shock:
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Re: You. Who are you?

Postby Glowim » 2008-08-10, 12:17

Ehi! But that's unfair!!! I suspended my answer, for a matter of time, and you add posts, so I have more think to answer!!!!

Ok, let's start from ... the end!

Vogelvrij wrote:Of course it is easier to lie, because we don't know what the truth is, so we just guess a bit around and hope the thing we want it to be is the truth :wink:

Well, it wasn't what I meant, but it's an interesting way to see it!!!

darkina wrote:I don't totally agree, of course studying for long is different than getting married at 20, but still I think that getting married so young you'd kind of "halt" your development and never go and discover where life could potentially lead you. Which is fair enough as a choice, but not a choice I would do or recommend doing, from my point of view.

It seems to me that your vision of marriage is just a sort of "freezing" of your life, and of your identity (so, in someway, I remain on topic!). I think that we continue to change, every day, married and not married. If you have someone on your side, you just change with him/her (not necessarily in the same way), because you share the same expirience with him/her. If you have a stable partner, there is no difference: marrying him/her, is just signing a cotract, nothing more. If you have childreen, well, that's a big difference.. but I think you would just have different expirience, who leads your personality to something else.
Obviously, if you are thinking at job, if you are married probably you could have some problems to go to work aboard, for example. But it's not a matter of the marrriage: it's just a matter of relationship: if you are really in love of him/her, no matter if you are married, you would just think a lot before taking a such decsion.
(btw: I don't want to convice you to marry ...!!!)

I like a lot the Heru post. I agree with him about taking decision..As darkina peraphs remember, I was looking for another job. I received several offert (there is enough job here in the IT), some of them really good. In the meanwhile, my bosses decided to talk about problems, and they made some promises, that seems to me as honest as good. So I decided to stay here, for at least some months. Well, I'm not sure I made a good decision, and I know I would never be sure if it is a good choice or not: I will discover it with enough time. If I start to think about it, I'm again full of doubts, so I decided to avoid to think about it..

hreru wrote:To me the sense of any variations on "who am I" question is not to have it answered but to ask it. Being faithful to this opinion, I gave you an answer that doesn't answer anything. :P

Your answer doesn't answer anything, just because probably there is no answer to the question, or at least noone can really know who we are in deep.

darkina wrote: Who is right? Me, because I am me, but I am held by all forms of repressions and doubts, or he, because he sees me from outside with no frills?

Did he explained why he sees that the choice is so "you"? Did he convince you that he's right?
Probably you could never know if he is right or not. Just my point of view: if you have to make mistakes, it's better you do it with your mind than with the mind of someone else...

And about "who knows you better: you or your friend?", well I agree with Vogelvrij
Vogelvrij wrote:No one is really 'right', do you think? You pay attention on different characterthings of yourself than your friend, for example. You have different versions. Difficult to say whose one is more true.

:yep:
Please, correct my errors!

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Re: You. Who are you?

Postby Glowim » 2008-08-10, 12:30

linguaholic wrote:Also, I think that "Great Love" is not something made by fate, two people who just fit and stay glued to each other magically. To me, "Great Love" is about loving somebody so much that you are willing to be with that person, to open up your life for him/her and to be genuinely interestend in his/her life as well. About being ready to really work on your relationship, to get through difficulties, accepting things about the other person even if it might not be easy for you. And of course about not being so set on all this that you are only rational and controlled by your will, but about being gentle and loving. And about being able to let go if you both find out it really won't work out. More about commitment than about fate.

You see, the point is:it isn't enough that you are ready for a such relationship. Also the other one must be ready for it. Moreover, you must met someone who have some "features" that are good for your feature.. I mean: if I'm realdy for it, and I met a girl who is ready for it, but I don't like her, (or she doesn't like me, or both), or we don't fall in love just because..."we are not made one for the other", you cannot have any Great Love. In that sense, I mean you need to be very lucky.
Obviusoly, lucky is not enough: if don't have my great love, I'm the first one to search reasons inside me... And that's hard: it is not easy to see in yourself if there is something wrong (in general). You need to be very honest with yourself, very objective...

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Re: You. Who are you?

Postby linguaholic » 2008-08-10, 12:56

Yes, of course you still need to be extremely lucky to find a person you can be that committed to and who also feels like that about you. What I was trying to say was that yes, it depends on the circumstances, but if you meet somebody and s/he is ready and you are ready and you click then that's because of those circumstances not because s/he is THE ONE in 6 billion people. It might as well have happened with another person.
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Re: You. Who are you?

Postby darkina » 2008-08-10, 13:12

linguaholic wrote:@darkina: Of course I don't know what your "decision problem" is about exactly, but isn't your point of view the more important one? Because YOU are the one who will have to live with your decision and it's no use if somebody else thinks it's "you" if you feel wrong. Then again, if you have a feeling that it's not really your inner core that tells you it's not right but just doubts and fears, maybe you should just jump into the cold water and go for it? Gosh, I shouldn't write anything that sounds like advice on a topic I know nothing about. :shock:


But that's what made me wonder - it's not important what choice it is, the thing was about noticing how I am seen differently from how I see myself. And yes I never know if it's my "inner core" as you say, or my doubts that make think it's not a good thing.

Glowim wrote:
darkina wrote: Who is right? Me, because I am me, but I am held by all forms of repressions and doubts, or he, because he sees me from outside with no frills?

Did he explained why he sees that the choice is so "you"? Did he convince you that he's right?
Probably you could never know if he is right or not. Just my point of view: if you have to make mistakes, it's better you do it with your mind than with the mind of someone else...


True, of course, but again it was not about the choice but about how he came up saying that it's me. And no I didn't have time to expand the conversation, we were on msn and then we didn't meet for a while, or maybe not alone I don't remember.

linguaholic wrote:Yes, of course you still need to be extremely lucky to find a person you can be that committed to and who also feels like that about you. What I was trying to say was that yes, it depends on the circumstances, but if you meet somebody and s/he is ready and you are ready and you click then that's because of those circumstances not because s/he is THE ONE in 6 billion people. It might as well have happened with another person.


Yes but that something that makes me even more scared: it has to be a right person, and it has to be the right time. How can you meet a person who is good for you, among 6 billion people, AND be at the right time and at the right place. That's too many factors to happen all at once.

And I still don't want to talk about this, and about love in here (or anywhere else) :twisted:
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