You. Who are you?

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Vinaok
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Postby Vinaok » 2008-07-18, 15:21

Glowim wrote:
Vogelvrij wrote:And haha, so the conclusion is: the more you are alone, the more identity you got?

Well, it wasn't what I meant but... so it seems!!!
(but what a sad identity would you have?and what sad answers would you find?!?)


I think we should try not to give any moral judgement to the identity we have, mixing together such concepts as "sad" and "identity" or "answer" would cast us into a whole different kind of discussion, whose main focus would be to grasp what kind of identity is right or best suiting to the human being or the enviroment he is into.

When we are discussing about the real identity of someone we should be aware that the answer might not be as pleasurable as expected.
My two cents: yes, I do think the more someone is alone, the more he/she is closer to the real essence of his personality, as he doesnt have to mold it according to social rules or his very own moral code.
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Postby Glowim » 2008-07-18, 16:53

Vinaok wrote:I think we should try not to give any moral judgement to the identity we have, mixing together such concepts as "sad" and "identity" or "answer" would cast us into a whole different kind of discussion, whose main focus would be to grasp what kind of identity is right or best suiting to the human being or the enviroment he is into.

Oh, but I didn't mean to give any judge about identity: there's a misunderstanding (for my "not exactly perfect" english.. :( ). With "sad idendity" I don't mean an ugly personality, or a bad man. I just mean a man that is sad, that feels sadness: just because to be every day, every minute, alone, well I suppose bring sad thoughts...(I mean: thoughts that brings sadness..). And the answers to the questions I wrote, well, would be "sad thoughts"..

And about consequences of loneliness on the "beauty" of a man idedinty: well, probably it's true: without any contact with other people, he wouldn't be able to mold it. But, you know, in this "full-of people" world, there are so many men with bad personalities...
Please, correct my errors!

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Postby Hoogstwaarschijnlijk » 2008-07-19, 12:16

Glowim wrote:
Vogelvrij wrote:And haha, so the conclusion is: the more you are alone, the more identity you got?

Well, it wasn't what I meant but... so it seems!!!
(but what a sad identity would you have?and what sad answers would you find?!?)
:D

I have thought about it and I don't think it's true more. When you're alone, you can think more about yourself, so that would give you more identity, but on the other hand, other people can also help to give you more identity. They can help you remember things, you can ask them about yourselves for example and so you can create also more knowledge about yourself.
Vianok, what do you mean with real essence of personality? Don't you think the way you act in social situations is also part of your identity?
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Postby Sarabi » 2008-07-19, 18:51

I think there's no need for an I if there's no you.


I agree. However, as others have been catching onto, just because you're the only human around doesn't mean you're the only being around. In fact, you couldn't possible exist alone in space with nothing except your own existence. Therefore, the trees and the rocks and anything else would become the "you".

When you're alone, you can think more about yourself, so that would give you more identity


Some believe we are always alone. I think that's just one way of looking at things. I used to feel that way, and in a sense I still believe that. But now I tend to think of myself as being never alone. I'm never alone enough... there are always ideas and junk popping their heads into my mind, never giving me peace. I think that if I were truly left alone, then my self would disappear, and I would be free from this world.

Now that I'm into Zen Buddhism, I have thought a lot about the self and non-self. The entity of self, the 'id'-entity, does indeed have to do with differentiating one being from another, namely the Self from the Other. In evolutionary terms, this makes sense because nature has made us into these autonomous survival-craved beings. And that requires a system in which the being holds its own life above all else in the universe; it requires a Self and Other. But Buddhism teaches that it is exactly this craving, this self-seeking, this other-seeing, that destroys us. To say, "You and me," is a closed form of understanding because it makes one being more important than another. In Zen, we meditate to let go of the self because it creates understanding. It means that there is just One because 'I' and the Universe become just the Universe. To quote Lao Tzu:

Simply see that you are at the center of the universe, and accept all things and beings as parts of your infinite body. When you perceive that an act done to another is done to yourself, you have understood the great truth.


One has to look and see not all the things that separate us and make us different, but all that which we have in common, which underlies all experience. I think we're all truly UNIque in that sense, because we're one of a kind when we realize that people are not divided into "kinds" at all, but are one and the same.

"Your task is not to seek for love, but merely to seek and find all the barriers within yourself that you have built against it." - Rumi

"Who are you?"
We are our own enemy.

On the other hand, I've also studied Western philosophy. That's all my Intro to Philosophy course was about. My philosophy professor inculcated this concept in me: that it's always a matter of emphasis. Some here were on to this, saying that the self depends on your perspective. This is definitely a Western approach to the concept of the self. The emphasis my professor was talking about refers to your perspective, where you're coming from. At any given moment, you are emphasizing a particular part of your self, a particular way of relating to the universe. It's not that one is truer - it's always a matter of emphasis.

But I have to return to the philosophy I find truer or more important (Eastern). Your beliefs are what this Self and Other stuff are made out of, but the deepest experience of the truth of who we are is as selfless and beliefless as can be. It's no longer a matter of emphasis.
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Postby Glowim » 2008-07-21, 11:38

Vogelvrij wrote:I have thought about it and I don't think it's true more. When you're alone, you can think more about yourself, so that would give you more identity, but on the other hand, other people can also help to give you more identity. They can help you remember things, you can ask them about yourselves for example and so you can create also more knowledge about yourself.

I think that you would have a different identity, but I wouldn't talk about a bigger, better or deeper one. I would avoid any judge about identity: I have never loved to say : this guy is better than this one...
Probably you would have a better knoledge about yourself, that's true, 'cause you would have to live a wider range of situations, but your identity is not connected with your knoweldge of it... You could try to change if you notice side of you that you don't love, but, again, you would became differnt,not better.

@Queen Ehlana: thanks for the Buddhism vision! I am very ignorant about it... And I'm not sure to be able to understand... (I have a western mind, and a quite scientific "culture" or anyway prospective..., so far away from any kind of philosophy...)

Queen Ehlana wrote: But now I tend to think of myself as being never alone. I'm never alone enough... there are always ideas and junk popping their heads into my mind, never giving me peace. I think that if I were truly left alone, then my self would disappear, and I would be free from this world.

:hmm: I disagree. Being alone, in my opinion, doesn't mean not having ideas, thoughts etc. And I don't think that without any ideas in my mind, I would disappear.. I feel alone (or better: I think all of us are alone in the end) just because probably noone can really "understand", our behaviour, our thoughts, etc. (as I said some post ago).

Queen Ehlana wrote:To say, "You and me," is a closed form of understanding because it makes one being more important than another

I don't think it's true: I say "Me and you"(just because I'm a western culture man..). But I don't think I'm more important, or better etc: I say "me and you", but also you say the same, and ,to your perspective, "Me "is you, and "you" is me.. So "me" and "you" have the same importance.
Please, correct my errors!

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Postby Sarabi » 2008-07-21, 17:00

Glowim wrote:@Queen Ehlana: thanks for the Buddhism vision! I am very ignorant about it... And I'm not sure to be able to understand... (I have a western mind, and a quite scientific "culture" or anyway prospective..., so far away from any kind of philosophy...)


You're welcome. :) Thanks for engaging with these ideas with me. And all people have philosophy, including you and including Western culture.

Glowim wrote:
Queen Ehlana wrote: But now I tend to think of myself as being never alone. I'm never alone enough... there are always ideas and junk popping their heads into my mind, never giving me peace. I think that if I were truly left alone, then my self would disappear, and I would be free from this world.

:hmm: I disagree. Being alone, in my opinion, doesn't mean not having ideas, thoughts etc. And I don't think that without any ideas in my mind, I would disappear.. I feel alone (or better: I think all of us are alone in the end) just because probably noone can really "understand", our behaviour, our thoughts, etc. (as I said some post ago).


If you were truly, utterly free of ideas, then you wouldn't have a mind. You would disappear as such. You might still have a body, but you have no experience and no longer any sense of self. I understand your feeling of aloneness; as I said, I used to feel that way myself and did for my entire life until I found Zen. But you know, not even we can completely, "really" understand ourselves. So does that mean we're even more alone, because we're only parts of a self, or what? In a sense, I could agree with that... if we were to say that the self consists of what we understand. But, again, Buddhism serves a greater understanding of the self. When we understand that we are part of a greater whole, and that it's okay to not understand and to not be understood by another individual, then I think it's hard to feel so alone. Perhaps, as well, I should not feel as crowded by this world as I do.

Glowim wrote:
Queen Ehlana wrote:To say, "You and me," is a closed form of understanding because it makes one being more important than another

I don't think it's true: I say "Me and you"(just because I'm a western culture man..). But I don't think I'm more important, or better etc: I say "me and you", but also you say the same, and ,to your perspective, "Me "is you, and "you" is me.. So "me" and "you" have the same importance.


I don't mean that "you and me" is saying "I am better than you" or vice versa, but that it is saying "you" and "I" are more important than whoever is outside of that phrase. And it's not about consciously thinking you are more important, but that's something we imply when we say it, whether we think it or not. Anyway, I was only talking about a phrase, which can have different meanings. Consider that I was talking about one popular meaning of the phrase.

I do realize that I say these things. Of course I do. As I suggested earlier, what I believe is not who I am - you can believe that you're actually a dreaming cockroach, but that doesn't make you a dreaming cockroach. Beliefs only serve to guide us, to make sense of our lives and our world. Also, you are right, that I consciously believe that "me" is "you" and "you" is "me", but even saying that is a paradox, because it already implies that there's a difference, a separateness. So, yes, I believe that, but it doesn't mean I live entirely that way. In terms of Buddhism, "enlightenment" is supposedly when you leave behind such concepts and "become one with the universe". So when I say I believe that, I mean that it's what I believe is ultimate and truest. I'm not enlightened.
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Postby Hoogstwaarschijnlijk » 2008-07-21, 17:02

Glowim wrote:
Vogelvrij wrote:I have thought about it and I don't think it's true more. When you're alone, you can think more about yourself, so that would give you more identity, but on the other hand, other people can also help to give you more identity. They can help you remember things, you can ask them about yourselves for example and so you can create also more knowledge about yourself.

I think that you would have a different identity, but I wouldn't talk about a bigger, better or deeper one. I would avoid any judge about identity: I have never loved to say : this guy is better than this one...
Probably you would have a better knoledge about yourself, that's true, 'cause you would have to live a wider range of situations, but your identity is not connected with your knoweldge of it... You could try to change if you notice side of you that you don't love, but, again, you would became differnt,not better.

I understand what you mean, but I don't totally agree with you. I think one can have a bigger or smaller identity, if you say that having knowledge about yourself causes the identity. If you don't have a single remembering (like in the book The Raw Shark Texts for example), you have a very small identity, because you aren't conscience of yourself.

I agree with Queen Ehlana though about being alone. As long as you get ideas that are coming from around you, you aren't exactly alone.
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Postby darkina » 2008-07-21, 18:29

Just a note: i have not abandoned my thread and i have a lot to say but i have always been too tired to concentrate on something like this. Looking forward to following the conversation, but I have the biggest headache in history so not yet :D
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Re: You. Who are you?

Postby Glowim » 2008-07-25, 7:07

I understand what you mean, but I don't totally agree with you. I think one can have a bigger or smaller identity, if you say that having knowledge about yourself causes the identity. If you don't have a single remembering (like in the book The Raw Shark Texts for example), you have a very small identity, because you aren't conscience of yourself.

Well, the loneliness wouldn't affect your ability to remember.. You wuold have just different things to remember (for example, you would remember what you would have eaten yesterday..), but I think that you would have the time to think to "deeper" think, for example .."who you are"!!

I will anwser better, especially to Queen Ehlana (her long post is interesting, and deserve more time to answer), when I find more time.. now I'm in a hurry!

Just a short answer to darkina:
darkina wrote:Just a note: i have not abandoned my thread and i have a lot to say but i have always been too tired to concentrate on something like this. Looking forward to following the conversation, but I have the biggest headache in history so not yet :D

Actually I was wondering why you hadn't no more answered to any posts here.. I was thinking we were boring you, or you were bothered by our vision (well, at least, the mine)!!
Hoping your headache is fading now... (BTW: I know very well how bad it is having an headache: usually I have it every saturday -the headache of week end...:( - and that's one of the reasons for my absence from the forum during the week end...staying in front of a computer increases it..)
Please, correct my errors!

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Re: You. Who are you?

Postby Sarabi » 2008-07-27, 8:51

I just read this really cool article, The Psychology of Zen Buddhism. In Zen, there is this concept of emptiness which is non-self:

Mind that is situated always has psychological reference points. The Zen
idea of emptiness psychologically is the letting go of all of these reference points, an
awareness that is empty of situatedness. The ability to do this enables a person to let
go of their personal situation, their personal viewpoint, their false ego. From the Zen
perspective all psychological problems are caused by clinging to a false ego. The
capacity for letting go of one’s psychological reference points specifically addresses
this false clinging. The result of this is that a person is much more open, has all of
his or her psychological functions available, and is thus much more able to interact
freely and healthily with their environment....
...emptiness is referring to something psychologically that is beyond or outside
the capacity of mind to perceive.
That emptiness cannot be perceived means that it cannot be understood or
experienced through the faculties of mind that separate or discriminate. It can only
be understood from the “inside” perspective – through intuition and through
experience. It cannot be understood in an objective way. It becomes possible to
realize emptiness when the subject of mind drops or forgets its individual identity and
all of its particular reference points. This is a mysterious nature of mind, that which
cannot ever really be known

Pure experience is the idea that a person can have an experience that is free of all forms of situatedness. It is the belief that it is possible for people regardless of their differences in background to have in a moment of pure experience the same experience

("Pure experience" refers to a particular Western perspective.)
that non-situated experience and situated experience exist together at the same time. Separating one from the other results in incompleteness and the reification of each.
Experience is situated, but in the same moment, as all reference points can dissolve, it
is not situated. Any non-situated experience can only occur within a situated
context, most specifically that of the body. It is not freedom from, but rather
freedom within, freedom to.

I think this psychologist explains it much better than I do, though of course it's still an objective description. It's sort of like we have this false self and real self at the same time. I can't say if a Zen master would fully agree with this explanation.
attend to experience simply without giving it meaning, feel it, and receive it

Here's the article:
http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:H8LXFH7YtUEJ:www.ew-psy.com/REGGIE%2520DISSERTATION/Seishin%2520English.pdf+%E5%85%A8+zen+buddhism&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=10&gl=us
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Re: You. Who are you?

Postby Glowim » 2008-07-27, 20:23

Queen Ehlana wrote:Thanks for engaging with these ideas with me. And all people have philosophy, including you and including Western culture.

It's a pleasure. Yes, all people have their own philosophies, but I didn't study it at school (never), so my "starting point" is very more behind of your point, if you understand what I mean...
Anyway..
Queen Ehlana wrote:But you know, not even we can completely, "really" understand ourselves. So does that mean we're even more alone,

This is exactly what I think. Or better, what i feel..

Queen Ehlana wrote:if we were to say that the self consists of what we understand.

No. The self ,in my opinion, exists everytime. It isn't of any importance weather someone understands or knows it. No matter if I don't understand or know my self, just because my idedintity doesn't depend on it, it exists despite of every comprension of it, despite of every knowledge of it. The "impossibility" to be understood, just rise a loneliness feeling inside me, but it doesn't change my identity.
I don't know nothing about Zen and Buddhism: I don't know if it's a religion, a philosophy, or what else...But reading your post, confirm me that it helps to aviod some negative feelings, such as this feeling. I think any religion can do that. Also Catholic religion could help: a very deep believer would never feel alone, just because, according to the religion, God understand everything. But I'm not a such deep believer..
But going back to Buddhism:
Queen Ehlana wrote:When we understand that we are part of a greater whole, and that it's okay to not understand and to not be understood by another individual, then I think it's hard to feel so alone. Perhaps, as well, I should not feel as crowded by this world as I do.

The point is : accepting to not be understood. I could decide to accept this (and actually I accept it, just because I cannot change it..), but I would continue to feel alone. I cannot erase my feelings... I can just avoid to think about it, and that's what I actually do.
Queen Ehlana wrote:I don't mean that "you and me" is saying "I am better than you" or vice versa, but that it is saying "you" and "I" are more important than whoever is outside of that phrase. And it's not about consciously thinking you are more important, but that's something we imply when we say it, whether we think it or not. Anyway, I was only talking about a phrase, which can have different meanings

I got your point. And probably, you are right.

I also read the article you posted. Interesting.

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Re: You. Who are you?

Postby Gormur » 2008-07-30, 0:24

...only when we let go of self (ego) and be completely free of insecurities and limiting beliefs can we begin to see our own reflection in the mirror and that of others.

This is why people who take psychedelics have 'spiritual awakenings' and discover things about themselves and others they never knew..these drugs eliminate irrelevant chatter thought to an extent that it quiets the ego or even completely elimates it (like acid does)...and brings out all of one's emotions out in the open...as when people have 'bad trips' it's because they're trying to control or suppress certain issues and emotions that may have been suppressed for years but brought out by the drug. That's why shrooms and lsd have been used in psychotherapy over the years.

I think it says something about the character of people who look down on psychedelics yet turn a blind eye to drugs like alcohol that create an artificial feeling of happiness, violent behavior, general idiocy and suppress emotions..not to mention addiction and serious health problems, even death. Alcohol is a hard drug afterall - (hard drugs= serious abuse-potentional, fatal side-effects, physiologically and psychologically addictive..like alcohol, nicotine, opiates, and many prescription drugs like benzos and barbituates).

Many people fear what they cannot control...thus drugs that heighten awareness (rather than dull them like booze) are obviously threatening to control-freaks, namely the government. When LSD use was at its peak, people would take action for what they believed in yet were non-violent, peace-loving, and compassioniate. And this is exactly the reason. If one can quiet their thoughts/prejudice/etc and observe the world from outside their ego, they will become wise to the world around them. But, if people are all doped up on prescription drugs, like millions of people are nowadays for their "disorders", they become slaves to the drug companies and get cloudy judgement from the drugs, which obviously makes them easier to brainwash with the hundreds of drug ads in the media -- just as someone with ADHD becomes a slave to their prescription (ie legal) Ritalin or Adderall so does the meth-head become a slave to meth...these are all amphetamines. The only difference being that one person is using the drug for recreation or to study/focus better while the other is taking it to feel normal...so any drug that is used to have fun, feel good, or alter one's percetion is bad, according to this train of thought...makes one wonder why alcohol, nicotine, and caffeine are legal then..especially when they have no real medical benefits and are lethal in relatively small doses, which according to the law here, should make them illegal.

The funny thing is ...it's incredibly easy to get prescriptions for mental/emotional problems. Often all you need is one or two symptoms to get a script -- ie insomnia, general anxiety/stress, depression, etc..all very common symptoms for everyone at some point in their life. So, then you have the people who are actually sick and those who BS their way through it and sell their scripts on the black market for double-triple the price they paid.

One of the main reasons recreational drug use has gotten such a bad image over the years is due to the emergence of crack cocaine in the 80s and more recently, street meth. These two drugs alone have been indirectly responsible (ultimately, it's the person who is responsible for their actions) for the overwhelming majority of drug-related crimes in the last 20 years.

Personally, I believe the lesson here is 'everything in moderation', and people who lack self-control create a bad name/image for all drugs, including legal ones like alcohol and illegal ones like cocaine.
Statistics are always exaggerated as well...1 hit of crack or meth will not make you an addict. It's impossible. The only truth in that statement is that everyone has a different personality...so if you have an addictive personality, you'll become an addict, but not after 1 hit..it has to be continuous use over days. Most people who use a drug try it once or keep it at a once-in-a-while basis when they can afford it. So if you have an addictive personality, don't do drugs. Get addicted to sex or something else that's healthy.

(I know this post deals with two essentially separate topics, but they are related, too).

In any case, I'm not advocating that everyone drop acid or eat peyote, but for many people it helps them to understand themselves and get in touch with their emotions and others. I will never forget the first 'trip' I had because it changed my life forever and helped me to be much less of a selfish person, to see things for how they really are rather than how I perceived them (imagine looking through someone else's eyes and mind, and you begin to understand the way you normally perceive things and see what kind of person you are....this is what frightens so many people because they cannot handle this...and instead choose to take drugs that make them oblivious to everything).

One negative aspect of this is that you begin to see how easily so many people are manipulated and dependent on others for how they feel about everything, their ideas, morals, and how they perceive themselves in such limited ways based on social factors.
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Re: You. Who are you?

Postby Hoogstwaarschijnlijk » 2008-07-30, 10:31

Great how you always can change a topic into talking about drugs :P

Have you ever read something of Georges Bataille, your post reminded me of him? He also says that there are ways to learn more about yourself by going over a border, for example with drugs. I agree with that, I think distance is need to get objective information, but on the other hand I think drugs can change ones identity, so then you don't learn anything, you just change it.
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Re: You. Who are you?

Postby Tenebrarum » 2008-07-30, 10:44

Vogelvrij wrote:Great how you always can change a topic into talking about drugs :P

Seconded.
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Re: You. Who are you?

Postby Sarabi » 2008-07-30, 12:09

Looks like a long rant about drugs with a couple of short comments about "self" on the side.

a very deep believer would never feel alone, just because, according to the religion, God understand everything.

Yes, exactly. This is the way I feel about Buddha, though perhaps I wouldn't word it exactly that way. It is that when and only when I have "faith" in the Buddha, in the place beyond self, the unknowable place, I feel especially that I am not alone. That everything that needs to be understood is understood. Recently, I realized that my roommate is my own personal Zen master, and I felt overcome with love. I felt completely understood. I told Sisyphe in conversation the other day that "understanding" is what your soul stands on. ;) I believe it involves our understanding that there's something beyond our own self that understands us, something we cannot reach by picking away at the worldly. To Socrates, wisdom meant "knowing that you do not know" because in reality, we know so very little, and yet we do know that there's something beyond our own ignorant self. According to Zen, there is nothing we can know but Here, Now.

The "impossibility" to be understood, just rise a loneliness feeling inside me

I have experienced that, too. But I don't think it's an impossibility to be understood so much as a lack of self-understanding. "Self-understanding" here means that you have found that place within you that is beyond you, so in a sense, you become the mysterious one who understands (when you become the non-self). You are, and you are not.

The point is : accepting to not be understood. I could decide to accept this (and actually I accept it, just because I cannot change it..), but I would continue to feel alone. I cannot erase my feelings... I can just avoid to think about it, and that's what I actually do.

Despite what you claim, I don't believe you have accepted it, at least not completely. Avoidance is a sure sign that you have not accepted something, that it bothers you. It is the same as running away from something. Is that what you call acceptance? Acceptance is not an external thing ("I know I can't change this external factor, therefore I will stay away from it even though it still bothers me"), but an internal one ("I know I cannot change this external factor, but I *can* change whether or not it bothers me").

Tell me, Glowim, if I have gone too far. This is a bit off-topic, I suppose, but I wanted to address something that came up. I don't mean to force my views on you, but you seem receptive to them, so... Anyway, more on topic, I realize now that by "understanding" another individual, I was referring to the material world of the false self. True understanding is beyond that, true acceptance is accepting even what we cannot accept by clinging to the ego, understanding even what we cannot understand in the discriminating world.

As for the drugs... Based on this description, it sounds more like it is creating a new self than really taking you outside yourself... as Vogelvrij suggested. I have an actor friend who told me that as an actor you are taking on a whole new self, unlike in Zen where you are releasing the self. He said that he got so into a role once that now he randomly has frightening thoughts of doing things he'd never, ever want to do in real life. I hope taking a psychedelic drug isn't like that.

"your conscious mind becomes aware of (or sometimes assaulted by) things normally inaccessible to it." http://www.sciencedaily.com/articles/p/ ... c_drug.htm
Doesn't sound good to me.

This talk of peaceful druggies sounds bogus to me. I remember when a kid in my school went to jail after taking ecstacy because he had gotten into a mindless, wild fight and also slammed a chair into the wall for no apparent reason (besides the drug, of course). Taking these drugs and going insane does not require addiction, from the looks of it. The whole part about self-control sounds even more ridiculous. You don't establish self-control by running your mind off its tracks. And if you already had true self-control, you most likely wouldn't need drugs at all. As for the rest, I won't judge. It seems there are some potentially positive effects.

"...only when we let go of self (ego) and be completely free of insecurities and limiting beliefs can we begin to see our own reflection in the mirror and that of others."

I like that.
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Re: You. Who are you?

Postby Trapy » 2008-07-30, 23:29

Bookmarked this thread. It's very deep, will have to read several times when I am less distracted :)
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Re: You. Who are you?

Postby Gormur » 2008-07-31, 0:47

Vogelvrij wrote:Great how you always can change a topic into talking about drugs :P

Have you ever read something of Georges Bataille, your post reminded me of him? He also says that there are ways to learn more about yourself by going over a border, for example with drugs. I agree with that, I think distance is need to get objective information, but on the other hand I think drugs can change ones identity, so then you don't learn anything, you just change it.


Hm can't say that I've heard of him. I've been reading a lot of Tim Leary and Hunter S Thompson lately, actually.

I don't see there being any limit to the amount of drugs one takes but only where they take them, single dosage, how they handle them, and WHY they're taking them (most important one)...ie personality plays a huge role (esp with psychedelics)...and this is what upsets me...like a kid who gets a hold of some acid and takes it at a club and starts to freak out. Well, what did you expect? You're handling a VERY powerful drug (it is measured in micrograms..so that tells you sth! One tab the size of your fingertip will make you trip for 6-8hrs...so please plan your trip, do it somewhere quiet with a friend who can watch over you and don't be an idiot and take it all at once...just like alcohol...too much, and you get sick or even die...too much acid and you might be tripping out for days on end! Psychedelics aren't like recreational drugs (stims, alcohol, XTC, etc) afterall..so of course if you use 'em that way, you're in for trouble). They're very emotionally-draining as well as physically, so you must drink a lot of water and will probably be exhausted the next day...I notice that I'm never physically exhausted the day after, but actually only sleep a few hours, wake up a bit more energized than usual, but emotionally drained.

But if you want "fun" drugs, then go have your fill..but don't take something if you don't know what it is or what it's going to do! It isn't the drugs' fault then, it's your own! Be responsible.
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Re: You. Who are you?

Postby Gormur » 2008-07-31, 3:05

Queen Ehlana wrote:As for the drugs... Based on this description, it sounds more like it is creating a new self than really taking you outside yourself... as Vogelvrij suggested. I have an actor friend who told me that as an actor you are taking on a whole new self, unlike in Zen where you are releasing the self. He said that he got so into a role once that now he randomly has frightening thoughts of doing things he'd never, ever want to do in real life. I hope taking a psychedelic drug isn't like that.


Nope, but most drugs are like that in that they actually manipulate the chemicals in your brain to feel certain emotions (usu described by users as an intense feeling of 'euphoria' or 'high'), thus actually changing the chemicals in your brain to crave more, since there is now an imbalance and your brain is actually telling you to take more to regain balance (even tho it won't). Meth is often called the worst drug because of this...after one single use, it alters brain chemistry and even DNA! It changes your personality forever..seriously. I've seen it happen to good people..next thing you hear is how they tried meth and a week later they're on the streets stealing cars and robbing stores to make meth. Same with crack. These drugs create such an intense euphoria then make you feel like absolute dogshit once you're sober...and I don't mean like a hangover from booze..I mean it feels so good that you forget about everything else, no worries, then it's all gone and you know you want more because you want to feel really good all the time, right? This is a huge problem for SOME people, especially if they already feel depressed naturally...I can't speak for meth, but I've done crack a couple times, and talk about a useless drug...you're all jittery and feel awesome like a powerful god, confident and focused, sexual, etc then ten minutes later it's over and you want more. It's a pretty simple drug really...it drains all the dopamine in your brain.

Psychedelics are unique in that they don't create superficial feelings, but actually intensify what you are already feeling, since they quiet your ego. Quite hard to explain and understand if you haven't experienced it... So let's say you're really calm and feel happy..take some shrooms, and you'll feel happy and energetic and want to dance or sth (if that's your personality). If you're stressed out already, then you'll be even more stressed...and if you got a lot of problems going on in your life, they're gonna seem even worse if you take sth. Bottom line is to take them when you feel normal and don't have a lot going on for a few days..then you won't have a 'bad trip' cause you won't be stressing out and be all worried...this is a mistake a lot of people make, giving these drugs a bad name. I wish there was better drug education in schools... including medicinal use of drugs and side-effects of hard drugs. Why can't that happen?

"your conscious mind becomes aware of (or sometimes assaulted by) things normally inaccessible to it." http://www.sciencedaily.com/articles/p/ ... c_drug.htm
Doesn't sound good to me.

The important thing to know is that setting (where you are and what's going on around you) and your current mood before taking anything determines what kind of experience you're gonna have. Psychedelics intensify everything around you because they heighten your senses. So they actually require much more self-control and patience to handle than any other class of drug..they bring you to a higher level of awareness (or consciousness, if you will) and so many seemingly ordinary things will become significant to you..like a color, a person, an idea.....'the sky looks so beautiful and makes me feel like flying to the moon on a red carpet'....things like that. For me, it is a very surreal spiritual experience, and that's really the best way to use psychedelics, IMHO.

I remember when a kid in my school went to jail after taking ecstacy because he had gotten into a mindless, wild fight and also slammed a chair into the wall for no apparent reason (besides the drug, of course).


Mindless drunken bar fights never happen tho, right? :wink: Anyway, that was a speed pill he took. The problem isn't ecstacy, but the fact that more than half of all XTC pills in this country come from dirty factories in Mexico that mix roughly 10-20% Methylenedioxymethamphetamine (XTC) with 80-90% Methamphetamine. Pure Ecstacy almost doesn't exist, except in a few parts of Europe and Canada...which has the total opposite effect of meth. You love everyone and everything, feel a bit drowsy, and just wanna chill listening to music. It's probably the most 'peaceful' drug there is.

Taking these drugs and going insane does not require addiction, from the looks of it


The only drugs that cause permanent insanity (ie delirium) are deliriants like Datura and Belladonna since they're poisons that stay in your system for years..if they don't kill you first. These plants cause realistic hallucinations that cannot be distinguished from reality (unlike psychedelics, which only change the way you see things that are already physically there..like the sky will look purple instead of blue, a chair looks like it's facing the other way, things like that...and it's always things that you know aren't really there, because you're still in touch with reality. Ever hear of Tim Leary? He took over 10,000 hits of acid during his life and continued to be the same sane intelligent person his entire life when he died in his 90s.

The whole part about self-control sounds even more ridiculous. You don't establish self-control by running your mind off its tracks. And if you already had true self-control, you most likely wouldn't need drugs at all. As for the rest, I won't judge. It seems there are some potentially positive effects.


You're right. Self-control must be a conscious effort to be responsible and mature. If you aren't, then of course doing any drug is an excuse to avoid responsibility...of course that is bad. It is self-destructive. And it isn't a valid reason to do any drug esp if that is going to take you away from focusing on what you should to become a better person. Also, if one uses drugs to cope with emotional problems, that's also counterproductive. I would hope this is common sense, tho.

"...only when we let go of self (ego) and be completely free of insecurities and limiting beliefs can we begin to see our own reflection in the mirror and that of others."


I like that.


It came to me the other day like a vision..all the words coming at me in a swirl of luminous colors through the bathroom mirror. :D
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Re: You. Who are you?

Postby sa wulfs » 2008-07-31, 10:31

How are your insecurities and limiting beliefs not part of who you are?
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Re: You. Who are you?

Postby Gormur » 2008-07-31, 19:01

sa wulfs wrote:How are your insecurities and limiting beliefs not part of who you are?


They are, as I said, if we can get past our own limiting beliefs first about ourselves then we can begin do the same for others; instead of judging or being negative...being patient, understanding, and helping others goes a long way in learning about ourselves...and it's reciprocal. Whether one believes it or not, everything one does in society has an impact on the society in some way. Music is a big part of my life, it is my job. It helps me to express myself and hopefully will inspire others.

The way one makes others feel is the most powerful suggestion in human interaction...

I find it sad that many people find a need to define themselves and others by using titles and labels. It is a sure sign of insecurity and lack of knowledge about one's self. If we can all see each other as the individuals we are, with unique potential and abilities, we can begin to break down social barriers that once limited us.

Edit: I just did a search and found some Maya Angelou quotes I really like...

Quoting: Maya Angelou


Life Lessons
I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel.

Each of us has that right, that possibility, to invent ourselves daily. If a person does not invent herself, she will be invented. So, to be bodacious enough to invent ourselves is wise.

I've learned that you shouldn't go through life with a catcher's mitt on both hands; you need to be able to throw something back.

Love life
Love life, engage in it, give it all you've got. Love it with a passion, because life truly does give back, many times over, what you put into it.

You may encounter many defeats, but you must not be defeated. In fact, it may be necessary to encounter the defeats, so you can know who you are, what you can rise from, how you can still come out of it.

Forgiving yourself
I don't know if I continue, even today, always liking myself. But what I learned to do many years ago was to forgive myself. It is very important for every human being to forgive herself or himself because if you live, you will make mistakes - it is inevitable. But once you do and you see the mistake, then you forgive yourself and say, 'well, if I'd known better I'd have done better,' that's all. So you say to people who you think you may have injured, 'I'm sorry,' and then you say to yourself, 'I'm sorry.'
If we all hold on to the mistake, we can't see our own glory in the mirror because we have the mistake between our faces and the mirror; we can't see what we're capable of being. You can ask forgiveness of others, but in the end the real forgiveness is in one's own self.
I think that young men and women are so caught by the way they see themselves. Now mind you. When a larger society sees them as unattractive, as threats, as too black or too white or too poor or too fat or too thin or too sexual or too asexual, that's rough. But you can overcome that. The real difficulty is to overcome how you think about yourself. If we don't have that we never grow, we never learn, and sure as hell we should never teach.

Don't Complain
If you don't like something, change it. If you can't change it, change your attitude. Don't complain.

If you have only one smile in you, give it to the people you love. Don't be surly at home, then go out in the street and start grinning 'Good morning' at total strangers.


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