You. Who are you?

[darkina]

How can I catch up with all this....
Hopefully in the weekend I'll manage to sit still for a couple of hours, I'm being so hyperactive and so tired when I'm not, that I don't have time for all the things I have to say here

[Hoogstwaarschijnlijk]

:? How can I catch up with all this....
Hopefully in the weekend I'll manage to sit still for a couple of hours, I'm being so hyperactive and so tired when I'm not, that I don't have time for all the things I have to say here

Don't feel sorry for it... I was just wishing that you were all Dutch, because then I certainly would read all your messages, but now it's so much English text

[darkina]

Right, I answered to a first batch and I'm posting it before I lose it for some power-cut or something (it's a rule no? you write something veeeery long and then lose it ). Not sure I'm looking forward to reading Gormy's drug digression

If no one is left on earth except you, you're still existing right? Why wouldn't you have an identity, if you're reflecting and thinking about yourself, then there's your identity.

About this, I quote Vogel but it was brought up by someone else too, I remember there was a philosopher saying that people/things only exist when you acknowledge their existence - if you look at me but ignore me, I don't exist. Or something like that, this is what I remember from school. Now I'm going to google it.

Hm yeah, I think it was Fichte, but it's not exactly what I said so maybe I don't remember correctly or I can't be bothered to concentrate...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fichte

Hmmm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-awareness

And haha, so the conclusion is: the more you are alone, the more identity you got?

Well, it wasn't what I meant but... so it seems!!!
(but what a sad identity would you have?and what sad answers would you find?!?)

Hm I don't think so... if there is no one else, maybe your identity is "limited", you have no one else to confront with...
or maybe would that be a "pure" identity, untainted by other beings' stimulations and opinions...?

Some believe we are always alone. I think that's just one way of looking at things. I used to feel that way, and in a sense I still believe that. But now I tend to think of myself as being never alone. I'm never alone enough... there are always ideas and junk popping their heads into my mind, never giving me peace. I think that if I were truly left alone, then my self would disappear, and I would be free from this world.

I'm not sure it's exactly what you are talking about, but I do believe that the normal, basic condition of humanity is loneliness. Because no matter how much we express ourselves, we can never reach a complete "simpathy" with other humans. We may feel close at times, but it's a moment, a moment when there's a breach of this loneliness and you feel good with others, but the rest of the time you're alone because no one will be inside of you feeling the same way as you, and you won't be feeling exactly the same as others... you can be close, and that's probably the blessing of human life, but even that doesn't last or is not perfect...

One has to look and see not all the things that separate us and make us different, but all that which we have in common, which underlies all experience. I think we're all truly UNIque in that sense, because we're one of a kind when we realize that people are not divided into "kinds" at all, but are one and the same.

Hmm. I don't know - in a way it is similar to what I said above, but in another way... I still can put people into "Kinds"... not exclusive ones and not closed ones, you can change, and you can belong to many kinds at the same time... according not maybe to what you "are", but to what experiences you have had that moulded you into one kind... It's hard to explain, I have an example in mind but I don't want to be too specific, and it's too personal anyway.

I have had some "encounter" with Buddhism recently and I can't really grasp it at all...

Your beliefs are what this Self and Other stuff are made out of, but the deepest experience of the truth of who we are is as selfless and beliefless as can be. It's no longer a matter of emphasis.

See, I can vaguely see what you say but not really grasp it. What is left in the moment you are selfless and beliefless? Do you mean that waht is left in that moment is YOU? But isn't a "SELFless YOU" a contradiction in itself?
Is this the point of meditation, btw? (oooh I soooo not wanted to get into Buddhism in this conversation, but I've been wondering about Buddhism recently, for all the wrong reasons).

But you know, not even we can completely, "really" understand ourselves. So does that mean we're even more alone, because we're only parts of a self, or what? In a sense, I could agree with that... if we were to say that the self consists of what we understand.

But that was in a way my original question: can we "really" understand ourselves, and therefore are we "allowed" not to trust other people's view of us, or is it possible that other people's view is even clearer than ours, as it's less biased?

But, again, Buddhism serves a greater understanding of the self. When we understand that we are part of a greater whole, and that it's okay to not understand and to not be understood by another individual, then I think it's hard to feel so alone. Perhaps, as well, I should not feel as crowded by this world as I do.

Hm and this relates to what I said above about loneliness. But I find the stuff about being part of a whole quite... unthinkable, for me.
What do you mean, it's ok not to understand and not be understood? Why is it ok? How?

I don't know nothing about Zen and Buddhism: I don't know if it's a religion, a philosophy, or what else...But reading your post, confirm me that it helps to aviod some negative feelings, such as this feeling. I think any religion can do that. Also Catholic religion could help: a very deep believer would never feel alone, just because, according to the religion, God understand everything. But I'm not a such deep believer..

I think this would lead us to another point: the believer is less alone because he/she has something to cling to. And a frame, to put what happens into. But I think it's quite off-topic. And I'm an atheist.

I was going to ask what are the peculiarities of Zen as opposed to the other million kinds of Buddhism. But I don't really want a digression on Buddhism here if unrelated to the original topic, so should we open a thread about Buddhism, in general?

From my very small and superficial attempt of beginning to explore Buddhism, there are many things that remind me of Catholicism, and I don't know if it is just because, coming from a Catholic background, it is the only tool I have to apply on things like this, if you see what I mean. But again, this could belong to another discussion. Queen E, feel free to open one should you wish to answer to this question(s), or maybe I will open it. So that we can continue with identity here. Of course, it's going in a totally different direction than I had imagined, but I obviously expected not to be able to know what to expect

The point is : accepting to not be understood. I could decide to accept this (and actually I accept it, just because I cannot change it..), but I would continue to feel alone. I cannot erase my feelings... I can just avoid to think about it, and that's what I actually do.

I don't think it's... acceptable. I think it's in humans' nature to fight against this situation, and obviously lose. Maybe Buddhists accept it and that's why they're happier (than me at least), but I think the rest of humanity doesn't really. This is why people express themselves, write books, poems, songs... to share and see if someone can sympathise for a second or two...

Oh and so... if someone accepts this lack of understanding (and as far as I understand, a Buddhist does?), would they stop bothering to express themselves? To share with people? If I know that I can't fully understand or be understood, then why bother ever opening my mouth? I could be a hermit and be content of my self-sufficiency...? Or what is the point that I miss?

[darkina]

The drug digression was indeed quite pointless, at least to this topic..

The way one makes others feel is the most powerful suggestion in human interaction...

This is quite true. I had never thought about it, but it fits a lot with my recent thoughts and experiences...

Edit: I just did a search and found some Maya Angelou quotes I really like...

I didn't know this Maya Angelou but yes I really like these quotes

Each of us has that right, that possibility, to invent ourselves daily. If a person does not invent herself, she will be invented. So, to be bodacious enough to invent ourselves is wise.

This is quite on topic...

Love life, engage in it, give it all you've got. Love it with a passion, because life truly does give back, many times over, what you put into it.

I wish it did. In this very moment, it is certainly not doing it, and why should I believe that it will...
But that's off topic.

You may encounter many defeats, but you must not be defeated. In fact, it may be necessary to encounter the defeats, so you can know who you are, what you can rise from, how you can still come out of it.

Hopefully.

Forgiving yourself
I don't know if I continue, even today, always liking myself. But what I learned to do many years ago was to forgive myself. It is very important for every human being to forgive herself or himself because if you live, you will make mistakes - it is inevitable. But once you do and you see the mistake, then you forgive yourself and say, 'well, if I'd known better I'd have done better,' that's all. So you say to people who you think you may have injured, 'I'm sorry,' and then you say to yourself, 'I'm sorry.'
If we all hold on to the mistake, we can't see our own glory in the mirror because we have the mistake between our faces and the mirror; we can't see what we're capable of being. You can ask forgiveness of others, but in the end the real forgiveness is in one's own self.
I think that young men and women are so caught by the way they see themselves. Now mind you. When a larger society sees them as unattractive, as threats, as too black or too white or too poor or too fat or too thin or too sexual or too asexual, that's rough. But you can overcome that. The real difficulty is to overcome how you think about yourself. If we don't have that we never grow, we never learn, and sure as hell we should never teach.

This is very beautiful and deep and important and hard.

Don't Complain
If you don't like something, change it. If you can't change it, change your attitude. Don't complain.

Hard

[HerrFraeulein]

Salvation is not to be found in forgiveness or lenience towards oneself or others. On the contrary, one must apply the strictest severity to one's own lapses and blunders, recognise one's own and others' despicability, judge yourself and your fellow humans with utter rigour; and find no pardon in the levity of the consequences springing from your sins. For the guilt is present, individable, indilutable, potent, knowing but one degree: the highest.

Indeed, Cicero, in his "Paradoxa Stoicorum", the paradoxes of the Stoics, duly reminds us:

"Parva, inquit, est res. At magna culpa; nec enim peccata rerum eventis, sed vitiis hominum metienda sunt. In quo peccatur, id potest aliud alio maius esse aut minus, ipsum quidem illud peccare, quoquo verteris, unum est." (par. 20)

Or: "Small is the thing, he says. But great the guilt; nor are the sins to be measured by the outcome of events (that they set in motion, HF), but by the vices of men. Whatever one sins against, that might be something more or less severe than something else; the very act of sinning itself, however, where ever you look, is one."

And who would you, whoever you are, be to contradict! Sinner!

[Hoogstwaarschijnlijk]

Fichte has made me cry, I don't want to hear anything about Fichte! *bachelorthesismemories*
But you're right, he has written about this too, a lot about identity actually.

And o, I totally disagree with the no-complaining stuff. To complain has a function, it can be very nice and helpful to complain. When you complain, it becomes clearer what exactly is wrong and then you can change. How can you change something if at first you haven't got the problem clear? Of course there are other ways to do this, but well, admit it, a bit of complaining can give such a pleasure! I won't give that up. Also because it's a very big part of my identity and I don't want to lose my identity

[darkina]

Salvation is not to be found in forgiveness or lenience towards oneself or others. On the contrary, one must apply the strictest severity to one's own lapses and blunders, recognise one's own and others' despicability, judge yourself and your fellow humans with utter rigour; and find no pardon in the levity of the consequences springing from your sins. For the guilt is present, individable, indilutable, potent, knowing but one degree: the highest.

Indeed, Cicero, in his "Paradoxa Stoicorum", the paradoxes of the Stoics, duly reminds us:

"Parva, inquit, est res. At magna culpa; nec enim peccata rerum eventis, sed vitiis hominum metienda sunt. In quo peccatur, id potest aliud alio maius esse aut minus, ipsum quidem illud peccare, quoquo verteris, unum est." (par. 20)

Or: "Small is the thing, he says. But great the guilt; nor are the sins to be measured by the outcome of events (that they set in motion, HF), but by the vices of men. Whatever one sins against, that might be something more or less severe than something else; the very act of sinning itself, however, where ever you look, is one."

And who would you, whoever you are, be to contradict! Sinner!

This is also interesting and closer to me than the rest - self-forgiveness is a very hard thing for me. And I like the way you put it (even Cicero, wow the Latin is so easy that I kind of understand it even if I deleted my Latin chip 7 years ago at the school's exit ).

But. Living with guilt, even if maybe truer, is hard and makes life impossible. If you live through your guilt you can't enjoy anything else afterwards...

And o, I totally disagree with the no-complaining stuff. To complain has a function, it can be very nice and helpful to complain. When you complain, it becomes clearer what exactly is wrong and then you can change. How can you change something if at first you haven't got the problem clear? Of course there are other ways to do this, but well, admit it, a bit of complaining can give such a pleasure! I won't give that up. Also because it's a very big part of my identity and I don't want to lose my identity

[Sarabi]

Wow, Gormur. I really like the Maya Angelou post.

Well, I'm just going to accept that I don't know nearly enough about drugs to analyze the subject well. But personally, I don't like the fact that, as you say, it's not for everyone. The more universal something is, the better, in my book. Not just that it's not for everyone, but that it's very dangerous for those who it's not for. That's great if you have self-control, but there are way, WAY too many people who don't and are foolish enough to use drugs they shouldn't. Since this thread is about self, I think the important thing to note is that psychedelics, according to you, DON'T grant you self-control, which both you and I apparently value. I believe you are saying that psychedelics expose your emotions, thereby giving us greater control over them. But in the meantime, you would be implying that self-control is necessary BEFORE we can control our emotions, which is what I believe and brings us to the point.

Mindless drunken bar fights never happen tho, right?

Did I ever give my approval of drunkenness? I actually find alcohol despicable. I have never consumed any mind-altering drug besides simple medicines and caffeine, nor do I have any intention of ever doing so.

How are your insecurities and limiting beliefs not part of who you are?

They are. Hatred, fear, anxiety - these are all insecurities, and they are a part of us. Does that mean we can't over come them?

If we can all see each other as the individuals we are, with unique potential and abilities, we can begin to break down social barriers that once limited us.

Well-said.

I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel.

Absolutely. This is what that psychologist of Zen was talking about. Not to give life meaning (through words), just to "feel it, receive it". It's about the experience, not about existence:

The Buddha showed the way to freedom from this slavery and suffering by awakening from this dream of existence and relationship by learning to focus attention on the experience (dhamma) instead of existence (bhava)

I think the original idea of this thread was about existence, but really... who we are is not just these ideas of self and selflessness. Life is more than an idea. It's an experience. You want to know who you are? You'll have to dig deeper into the well of experience, really get to the core of sorrow and happiness. When you talk about "loneliness", you're already in the realm of "existence", defining instead of just receiving that experience.

You may encounter many defeats, but you must not be defeated. In fact, it may be necessary to encounter the defeats, so you can know who you are, what you can rise from, how you can still come out of it.

Hopefully.

Why do you find my beliefs contradictory and not this? I already stated that my beliefs (and Buddhism) are paradoxical. But a paradox is not the same as a contradiction; it is more like a lexical illusion. It is only a contradiction because you do not understand it. Anyway, this quote is good. "You may encounter many defeats, but you must not be defeated" - doesn't this sound paradoxical? It is. This is kind of like "Lose the battle, win the war". You change the wording, and it's not so paradoxical.

Indeed, suffering creates us, forces you to "know who you are", to define your existence.

I'll reply to the rest later. Going to take a break.

[darkina]

I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel.

Absolutely. This is what that psychologist of Zen was talking about. Not to give life meaning (through words), just to "feel it, receive it". It's about the experience, not about existence:

The Buddha showed the way to freedom from this slavery and suffering by awakening from this dream of existence and relationship by learning to focus attention on the experience (dhamma) instead of existence (bhava)

I think the original idea of this thread was about existence, but really... who we are is not just these ideas of self and selflessness. Life is more than an idea. It's an experience. You want to know who you are? You'll have to dig deeper into the well of experience, really get to the core of sorrow and happiness. When you talk about "loneliness", you're already in the realm of "existence", defining instead of just receiving that experience.

This is actually leading me to understand something, which is vaguely related to what I was thinking when opening this thread - not as its focus, but at the back of my mind, because well it's something that has been constantly in my mind for months now.

Defining instead of experiencing is what I do all the time. Or while experiencing, because I do think I experience, but I define too much, and this is how a certain situation has started going downhill, and this has unfortunately influenced my life way too much.

This is just terminology, but does this mean that according to Buddhism or to whoever thinks like that, "existence" is definable? Might be my Western outlook or something in the way I define things due to whatever is in my background, but "existence" seems like a vague concept to me and not at all definable...
But I do understand what this means.

You may encounter many defeats, but you must not be defeated. In fact, it may be necessary to encounter the defeats, so you can know who you are, what you can rise from, how you can still come out of it.

Hopefully.

Why do you find my beliefs contradictory and not this? I already stated that my beliefs (and Buddhism) are paradoxical. But a paradox is not the same as a contradiction; it is more like a lexical illusion. It is only a contradiction because you do not understand it.

Are you talking to me? Maybe I find this not paradoxical because it is close to my experience, while your beliefs aren't and I don't really understand them. I wasn't looking for paradoxes, I just truly don't get this kind of things. I don't think I talked of contradictions, I only asked for explanations of things I don't understand, because my experience and my worldview are so far from that, that I cannot really understand it and it makes me ask questions.

Anyway, this quote is good. "You may encounter many defeats, but you must not be defeated" - doesn't this sound paradoxical? It is. This is kind of like "Lose the battle, win the war". You change the wording, and it's not so paradoxical.

So again it's just a question of wording. And if the wording changes it so much, it's probably not so paradoxical to start with. It does not seem that paradoxical even with the first wording, to me: "defeats" sounds like many, smaller ones... "to be defeated" sounds like absolute, complete destruction. Maybe some languages would use two different words, and then the paradox will be lost.

[Sarabi]

I do believe that the normal, basic condition of humanity is loneliness. Because no matter how much we express ourselves, we can never reach a complete "simpathy" with other humans. We may feel close at times, but it's a moment, a moment when there's a breach of this loneliness and you feel good with others, but the rest of the time you're alone because no one will be inside of you feeling the same way as you, and you won't be feeling exactly the same as others...

No, that's not the basic condition of humanity. That's your state of mind. Expressing ourselves isn't what ultimately creates "sympathy" (or better, "compassion"). If that's what you think, then there's already a clue as to why it seems so impossible to be fully compassionate. Here's a clue: "to EXpress" is to send an external message, a message OUTSIDE of experience. Experience is an internal thing. Anyway, loneliness isn't really a "condition" at all. It's a feeling, an idea, and you are implying that everyone ultimately feels lonely, which is not true at all. I don't feel lonely at all.

you can be close, and that's probably the blessing of human life, but even that doesn't last or is not perfect...

Nothing lasts. By wishing for permanence, you are creating suffering. Begin to understand Buddhism from this point.

I have had some "encounter" with Buddhism recently and I can't really grasp it at all...

Buddhism cannot really be "grasped" anyway. It's not something you hold in your hand or in your mind. It's something you do.

But isn't a "SELFless YOU" a contradiction in itself?

Perhaps, but I didn't say a "SELFless YOU". I said selfless. There is no "you".

What do you mean, it's ok not to understand and not be understood? Why is it ok? How?

Well, when you truly understand, then it's okay not to understand. I mean, it is okay not to understand all the measurable differences between people as long as you understand the immeasurable interconnectedness, the fact that there really are no differences.

the believer is less alone because he/she has something to cling to.

I believe this is the cause of suffering: clinging. To cling to joy, love, compassion, pleasure... that is a cause of suffering. To run away from being alone is essentially the same thing as clinging to its opposite. It is possible to cling to the Buddha or to God or to anything. When we cease to cling to these concepts, then we can truly understand them. When we cease to cling to pleasure, then we can experience pleasure as just pleasure. But remember that we must begin somewhere, and we often begin with concepts because that is where we happen to be already.

I really feel this is becoming a digression now. If you open a thread on Buddhism, I will certainly continue the discussion. I might open one later.

Salvation is not to be found in forgiveness or lenience towards oneself or others. On the contrary, one must apply the strictest severity to one's own lapses and blunders, recognise one's own and others' despicability, judge yourself and your fellow humans with utter rigour; and find no pardon in the levity of the consequences springing from your sins. For the guilt is present, individable, indilutable, potent, knowing but one degree: the highest.

That's absolutely awful. Let's all just murder ourselves. This post was a joke, right?

darky - I saw your new post! Reply later.

[darkina]

I have had some "encounter" with Buddhism recently and I can't really grasp it at all...

Buddhism cannot really be "grasped" anyway. It's not something you hold in your hand or in your mind. It's something you do.

But how do you do it if you don't understand how to do it?

(by the way, I am in no way interested in doing it, as in I don't feel any wish to properly get into Buddhism, I'm just curious about it as for the first time in my life I have met some Buddhists and one of them has influenced me a lot but without giving me many tools to understand him, as I knew truly nothing about Buddhism besided the cliché mainstream stuff like reincarnation and that kind of jazz)

And yeah we're straying... Split?

darky - I saw your new post! Reply later.

Take your time, it's almost 2am around here and time for a nap

[darkina]

But isn't a "SELFless YOU" a contradiction in itself?

Perhaps, but I didn't say a "SELFless YOU". I said selfless. There is no "you".

I think that you was meant as in the same self... a selfless self. Therefore a less
Sorry, it's really bedtime

[Sarabi]

Defining instead of experiencing is what I do all the time. Or while experiencing, because I do think I experience, but I define too much, and this is how a certain situation has started going downhill, and this has unfortunately influenced my life way too much.

I know what you mean, because I also have spent my life defining things too much. It's in our society... you might even say in our genes, to define things. That's also what I meant when I mentioned the "discriminating" mind. In order to define something, you have to discriminate between things. And that leads to prejudice. And it leads to expectations, which can always be broken. But this can be overcome, and that's the purpose of Buddhism.

You say you don't really understand my beliefs, but I think you do. I have said the same things in different ways, and some of them you didn't get, but that one you did.

But how do you do it if you don't understand how to do it?

Just remember that it can be grasped, but it can't be grasped. It can be understood, but it can't be understood. There is a self, but there's most certainly no self!

by the way, I am in no way interested in doing it, as in I don't feel any wish to properly get into Buddhism

Well, I'm not going to create a thread for someone who is not interested. Just read this article:
Buddhism in a Nutshell. That should do the trick!

[darkina]

Well what I meant is, I'm not seeking to be converted, I am just curious what it is all about. I'll read that page and all, but maybe I'll make a thread for random questions - I didn't want a course to get into it, because I don't think it's for me, as a set of beliefs. But learning about things is good and maybe some things can be useful anyway


edit: I read it but thought I'd wait before I elaborate. There was something that was indeed related to this topic. As for the rest I'm a bit surprised because there are a lot of things that are actually part of "my" philosophy, of what I think without adhering to any label... and I thought it would be different from that. So yeah, I can say I learnt something today But I'm sure that's much more than that

[Glowim]

Oh, God! How much did you write in a few days?!?
@darkina: yes, I notice you had a lot to say... but you weren't the only one!
It took a lot of time this morning to read all posts... but don't say it to my bosses..!!!

Despite what you claim, I don't believe you have accepted it, at least not completely. Avoidance is a sure sign that you have not accepted something, that it bothers you.

Probably you are right.. But it's the only way I have to go ahead. I mean: I cannot change the fact I don't like it, nor I cannot change the fact it bothers me. As darkina said, probably it's in human nature to be bothered by this situation, eventually try to change this and lose. At least, without the help of a religion or a philosophy that try to anwer to our question. I think that humans need religions just because we have the need to answer to this questions. The same for death: how can you accept this without a religion?!
I don't mean that it is right to be atheist.. Peraphs a God really exists, and human nature brings these question just because we must find answers in Him. I don't know: I'm not atheist, but I'm not a beliver... I'm simply...lost. But moreover, I' m off topic...!!

Drug: I have no expirience with drugs (well - except coffee.... ) . But Gormur, I have a question: in an old post of you, on this thread, you say:

This is why people who take psychedelics have 'spiritual awakenings' and discover things about themselves and others they never knew..these drugs eliminate irrelevant chatter thought to an extent that it quiets the ego or even completely elimates it (like acid does)...and brings out all of one's emotions out in the open...

Are you sure? I mean: drugs modify your "natural" perception (for "natural" I mean "perception" you have without any drugs modifiy), by chimics: are you really sure the modified perception is the real one? You feel freeer, but are you really freer? Or is it an illusion, brought by drugs?

Salvation is not to be found in forgiveness or lenience towards oneself or others. On the contrary, one must apply the strictest severity to one's own lapses and blunders, recognise one's own and others' despicability, judge yourself and your fellow humans with utter rigour; and find no pardon in the levity of the consequences springing from your sins. For the guilt is present, individable, indilutable, potent, knowing but one degree: the highest.

Indeed, Cicero, in his "Paradoxa Stoicorum", the paradoxes of the Stoics, duly reminds us:

"Parva, inquit, est res. At magna culpa; nec enim peccata rerum eventis, sed vitiis hominum metienda sunt. In quo peccatur, id potest aliud alio maius esse aut minus, ipsum quidem illud peccare, quoquo verteris, unum est." (par. 20)

Or: "Small is the thing, he says. But great the guilt; nor are the sins to be measured by the outcome of events (that they set in motion, HF), but by the vices of men. Whatever one sins against, that might be something more or less severe than something else; the very act of sinning itself, however, where ever you look, is one."

I think we should be able to forgive us, and leaving without guilt if we have made some mistakes. And, in the meanwhile, we must learn to forgive other people: just because it's in human nature make mistakes. BUT we should be able to recognize our erros, and learn by them, to avoid to repeat the same mistakes in the future. If you have recognize your error, you admit it and you are sorry, it's useless to have any guilt. Mistakes are usefull to learn, not for guilty feelings...

I do believe that the normal, basic condition of humanity is loneliness. Because no matter how much we express ourselves, we can never reach a complete "simpathy" with other humans. We may feel close at times, but it's a moment, a moment when there's a breach of this loneliness and you feel good with others, but the rest of the time you're alone because no one will be inside of you feeling the same way as you, and you won't be feeling exactly the same as others...

Oh, finally someone who thinks we are alone, like I think!! Now I feel...less alone!!
I don't know if human nature is having a loneliness feeling. If you are not a believer, or if you are not able to accept the idea noone will really understand you, yes: your destiny is to feel lonilenss. But if you believe in somethink, you will not feel that.

But that was in a way my original question: can we "really" understand ourselves, and therefore are we "allowed" not to trust other people's view of us, or is it possible that other people's view is even clearer than ours, as it's less biased?

In the end, I repeat my point of view: noone can really understand us (at least, if you are not religious - or without drugs!). Other people cannot really understand us just because they are not inside us. In the meanwhile, we cannot have an objective vision of us, just because we are in a special "seat" to observe. Peraphs, If we can, we should accept (really accept, I mean!) this: we cannot be understood.

[darkina]

Oh, God! How much did you write in a few days?!?

It's called weekend

Oh, finally someone who thinks we are alone, like I think!! Now I feel...less alone!!
I don't know if human nature is having a loneliness feeling. If you are not a believer, or if you are not able to accept the idea noone will really understand you, yes: your destiny is to feel lonilenss. But if you believe in somethink, you will not feel that.

Ok, but I'm an atheist. So...

In the end, I repeat my point of view: noone can really understand us (at least, if you are not religious - or without drugs!). Other people cannot really understand us just because they are not inside us. In the meanwhile, we cannot have an objective vision of us, just because we are in a special "seat" to observe. Peraphs, If we can, we should accept (really accept, I mean!) this: we cannot be understood.

Yes, I think that's the solution. But - what do you mean with religion and drugs? How does religion make you understand who you really are? maybe it puts you in perspective, gives you a role in the universe, but you don't know yourself any better... you will still have doubts when making a decision, if something is good for you or not...

[Glowim]

Oh, God! How much did you write in a few days?!?

It's called weekend

Really?!? Here I call: "without air-condtioning"...

Ok, but I'm an atheist. So...

...so your destiny is to feel that loneliness.

In the end, I repeat my point of view: noone can really understand us (at least, if you are not religious - or without drugs!). Other people cannot really understand us just because they are not inside us. In the meanwhile, we cannot have an objective vision of us, just because we are in a special "seat" to observe. Peraphs, If we can, we should accept (really accept, I mean!) this: we cannot be understood.

Yes, I think that's the solution. But - what do you mean with religion and drugs? How does religion make you understand who you really are? maybe it puts you in perspective, gives you a role in the universe, but you don't know yourself any better... you will still have doubts when making a decision, if something is good for you or not...

Well, about drugs I don't know a lot, but I think it's a bad way to search yourself with it. As I asked to Gormur, I wonder it that freedom, is just an illusion or not.
About religion: it depends on how much believer you are... Religions give you answers to "the usual questions": "who we are?", "why we exist?", and so on.. Using your words, it gives you a role in the universe. I think that, answering to this question, it gives you self confidence.. And it changes you're idendity (for example: Queen ehlana said she had my and your same feeling, about loneliness, but when she discoverd Buddhism, she removed this feelings). But.. I really don't know if it helps to give you a better picture of yourself: in my opinion, there are several believer who have an illusion of themself (I think especially to catholics No offence to noone: it doesn'nt depend on religiouns, but on reasons that bring people to be believer: often they behave like believer just for habits, and without any deep reasons). And .. doubts: religion can give some anwers, to BIG questions. But not to everythink. It can say that it's right to help everyone, it can say what is better for your soul..but it cannot help in taking some decision about your life: if you should accept a job, or change it, or if you should break a relationship, or try to start one... If you need such answers, well, it's better you ask to your friends, your family, whoever loves you...and then take your decsion, by yourself.

[Sarabi]

Edit: Even though I'm not the only one off-topic, I sort of feel like I've high-jacked this thread. Sorry. I've been on my own personal Buddhist retreat lately, and all I do is meditate and contemplate life.... but I'm not gonna post any more about Buddhism in this thread.

[Hoogstwaarschijnlijk]

The lonelinessthing makes me think of the story of Aristophanes (?) who tells the story about the man/man, man/woman, woman/womanballs that get split up by Zeus. I really like that story and I also think that humans basic condition is loneliness. On the other hand, lots of people really easily feel part of something bigger: family, sport club, country... But I think that this are just ways to cover the loneliness. I also think that it can temporarily be gone when you are in love, but it will keep coming back because well, it's the basic condition, right?

I actually only post this to have a legal reason to say how much I like darkina's new avatar. I love those "meneertjes en mevrouwtjes", we had books of them and I still remember that when I was on holiday in England we had pasta that looked like them England is so great. I also saw someone wear a T-shirt of it on television and now I want one too but I don't know where to buy it (in the Netherlands).

[darkina]

[quote="Queen Ehlana"]Edit: This post is totally off-topic. Even though I'm not the only one off-topic, I sort of feel like I've high-jacked this thread. Sorry. I've been on my own personal Buddhist retreat lately, and all I do is meditate and contemplate life.... but I'm not gonna post any more about Buddhism in this thread.
[quote]

Hence the need for a thread about Buddhism, not for me to be converted but to discuss. ANd you can rant there as well
I am still thinking of writing a bit on it but have had not time yet. I quickly read your post (I'm at work now, no time) and I think I would like to respond, somewhere else and with some time. We'll see.

I'll be back to the other posts