darkina wrote::? How can I catch up with all this....
Hopefully in the weekend I'll manage to sit still for a couple of hours, I'm being so hyperactive and so tired when I'm not, that I don't have time for all the things I have to say here
Vogelvrij wrote:If no one is left on earth except you, you're still existing right? Why wouldn't you have an identity, if you're reflecting and thinking about yourself, then there's your identity.
Glowim wrote:Vogelvrij wrote:And haha, so the conclusion is: the more you are alone, the more identity you got?
Well, it wasn't what I meant but... so it seems!!!
(but what a sad identity would you have?and what sad answers would you find?!?)
Queen Ehlana wrote:Some believe we are always alone. I think that's just one way of looking at things. I used to feel that way, and in a sense I still believe that. But now I tend to think of myself as being never alone. I'm never alone enough... there are always ideas and junk popping their heads into my mind, never giving me peace. I think that if I were truly left alone, then my self would disappear, and I would be free from this world.
One has to look and see not all the things that separate us and make us different, but all that which we have in common, which underlies all experience. I think we're all truly UNIque in that sense, because we're one of a kind when we realize that people are not divided into "kinds" at all, but are one and the same.
Your beliefs are what this Self and Other stuff are made out of, but the deepest experience of the truth of who we are is as selfless and beliefless as can be. It's no longer a matter of emphasis.
Queen Ehlana wrote: But you know, not even we can completely, "really" understand ourselves. So does that mean we're even more alone, because we're only parts of a self, or what? In a sense, I could agree with that... if we were to say that the self consists of what we understand.
But, again, Buddhism serves a greater understanding of the self. When we understand that we are part of a greater whole, and that it's okay to not understand and to not be understood by another individual, then I think it's hard to feel so alone. Perhaps, as well, I should not feel as crowded by this world as I do.
Glowim wrote:I don't know nothing about Zen and Buddhism: I don't know if it's a religion, a philosophy, or what else...But reading your post, confirm me that it helps to aviod some negative feelings, such as this feeling. I think any religion can do that. Also Catholic religion could help: a very deep believer would never feel alone, just because, according to the religion, God understand everything. But I'm not a such deep believer..
The point is : accepting to not be understood. I could decide to accept this (and actually I accept it, just because I cannot change it..), but I would continue to feel alone. I cannot erase my feelings... I can just avoid to think about it, and that's what I actually do.
Gormur wrote:The way one makes others feel is the most powerful suggestion in human interaction...
Edit: I just did a search and found some Maya Angelou quotes I really like...
Each of us has that right, that possibility, to invent ourselves daily. If a person does not invent herself, she will be invented. So, to be bodacious enough to invent ourselves is wise.
Love life, engage in it, give it all you've got. Love it with a passion, because life truly does give back, many times over, what you put into it.
You may encounter many defeats, but you must not be defeated. In fact, it may be necessary to encounter the defeats, so you can know who you are, what you can rise from, how you can still come out of it.
Forgiving yourself
I don't know if I continue, even today, always liking myself. But what I learned to do many years ago was to forgive myself. It is very important for every human being to forgive herself or himself because if you live, you will make mistakes - it is inevitable. But once you do and you see the mistake, then you forgive yourself and say, 'well, if I'd known better I'd have done better,' that's all. So you say to people who you think you may have injured, 'I'm sorry,' and then you say to yourself, 'I'm sorry.'
If we all hold on to the mistake, we can't see our own glory in the mirror because we have the mistake between our faces and the mirror; we can't see what we're capable of being. You can ask forgiveness of others, but in the end the real forgiveness is in one's own self.
I think that young men and women are so caught by the way they see themselves. Now mind you. When a larger society sees them as unattractive, as threats, as too black or too white or too poor or too fat or too thin or too sexual or too asexual, that's rough. But you can overcome that. The real difficulty is to overcome how you think about yourself. If we don't have that we never grow, we never learn, and sure as hell we should never teach.
Don't Complain
If you don't like something, change it. If you can't change it, change your attitude. Don't complain.
HerrFraeulein wrote:Salvation is not to be found in forgiveness or lenience towards oneself or others. On the contrary, one must apply the strictest severity to one's own lapses and blunders, recognise one's own and others' despicability, judge yourself and your fellow humans with utter rigour; and find no pardon in the levity of the consequences springing from your sins. For the guilt is present, individable, indilutable, potent, knowing but one degree: the highest.
Indeed, Cicero, in his "Paradoxa Stoicorum", the paradoxes of the Stoics, duly reminds us:
"Parva, inquit, est res. At magna culpa; nec enim peccata rerum eventis, sed vitiis hominum metienda sunt. In quo peccatur, id potest aliud alio maius esse aut minus, ipsum quidem illud peccare, quoquo verteris, unum est." (par. 20)
Or: "Small is the thing, he says. But great the guilt; nor are the sins to be measured by the outcome of events (that they set in motion, HF), but by the vices of men. Whatever one sins against, that might be something more or less severe than something else; the very act of sinning itself, however, where ever you look, is one."
And who would you, whoever you are, be to contradict! Sinner!
Vogelvrij wrote:And o, I totally disagree with the no-complaining stuff. To complain has a function, it can be very nice and helpful to complain. When you complain, it becomes clearer what exactly is wrong and then you can change. How can you change something if at first you haven't got the problem clear? Of course there are other ways to do this, but well, admit it, a bit of complaining can give such a pleasure! I won't give that up. Also because it's a very big part of my identity and I don't want to lose my identity
Mindless drunken bar fights never happen tho, right?
How are your insecurities and limiting beliefs not part of who you are?
If we can all see each other as the individuals we are, with unique potential and abilities, we can begin to break down social barriers that once limited us.
I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel.
The Buddha showed the way to freedom from this slavery and suffering by awakening from this dream of existence and relationship by learning to focus attention on the experience (dhamma) instead of existence (bhava)
You may encounter many defeats, but you must not be defeated. In fact, it may be necessary to encounter the defeats, so you can know who you are, what you can rise from, how you can still come out of it.Hopefully.
Queen Ehlana wrote:I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel.
Absolutely. This is what that psychologist of Zen was talking about. Not to give life meaning (through words), just to "feel it, receive it". It's about the experience, not about existence:The Buddha showed the way to freedom from this slavery and suffering by awakening from this dream of existence and relationship by learning to focus attention on the experience (dhamma) instead of existence (bhava)
I think the original idea of this thread was about existence, but really... who we are is not just these ideas of self and selflessness. Life is more than an idea. It's an experience. You want to know who you are? You'll have to dig deeper into the well of experience, really get to the core of sorrow and happiness. When you talk about "loneliness", you're already in the realm of "existence", defining instead of just receiving that experience.
You may encounter many defeats, but you must not be defeated. In fact, it may be necessary to encounter the defeats, so you can know who you are, what you can rise from, how you can still come out of it.Hopefully.
Why do you find my beliefs contradictory and not this? I already stated that my beliefs (and Buddhism) are paradoxical. But a paradox is not the same as a contradiction; it is more like a lexical illusion. It is only a contradiction because you do not understand it.
Anyway, this quote is good. "You may encounter many defeats, but you must not be defeated" - doesn't this sound paradoxical? It is. This is kind of like "Lose the battle, win the war". You change the wording, and it's not so paradoxical.
I do believe that the normal, basic condition of humanity is loneliness. Because no matter how much we express ourselves, we can never reach a complete "simpathy" with other humans. We may feel close at times, but it's a moment, a moment when there's a breach of this loneliness and you feel good with others, but the rest of the time you're alone because no one will be inside of you feeling the same way as you, and you won't be feeling exactly the same as others...
you can be close, and that's probably the blessing of human life, but even that doesn't last or is not perfect...
I have had some "encounter" with Buddhism recently and I can't really grasp it at all...
But isn't a "SELFless YOU" a contradiction in itself?
What do you mean, it's ok not to understand and not be understood? Why is it ok? How?
the believer is less alone because he/she has something to cling to.
Salvation is not to be found in forgiveness or lenience towards oneself or others. On the contrary, one must apply the strictest severity to one's own lapses and blunders, recognise one's own and others' despicability, judge yourself and your fellow humans with utter rigour; and find no pardon in the levity of the consequences springing from your sins. For the guilt is present, individable, indilutable, potent, knowing but one degree: the highest.
Queen Ehlana wrote:I have had some "encounter" with Buddhism recently and I can't really grasp it at all...
Buddhism cannot really be "grasped" anyway. It's not something you hold in your hand or in your mind. It's something you do.
darky - I saw your new post! Reply later.
Queen Ehlana wrote:But isn't a "SELFless YOU" a contradiction in itself?
Perhaps, but I didn't say a "SELFless YOU". I said selfless. There is no "you".
Defining instead of experiencing is what I do all the time. Or while experiencing, because I do think I experience, but I define too much, and this is how a certain situation has started going downhill, and this has unfortunately influenced my life way too much.
But how do you do it if you don't understand how to do it?
by the way, I am in no way interested in doing it, as in I don't feel any wish to properly get into Buddhism
Queen Ehlana wrote:Despite what you claim, I don't believe you have accepted it, at least not completely. Avoidance is a sure sign that you have not accepted something, that it bothers you.
Gormur wrote:This is why people who take psychedelics have 'spiritual awakenings' and discover things about themselves and others they never knew..these drugs eliminate irrelevant chatter thought to an extent that it quiets the ego or even completely elimates it (like acid does)...and brings out all of one's emotions out in the open...
HerrFraeulein wrote:Salvation is not to be found in forgiveness or lenience towards oneself or others. On the contrary, one must apply the strictest severity to one's own lapses and blunders, recognise one's own and others' despicability, judge yourself and your fellow humans with utter rigour; and find no pardon in the levity of the consequences springing from your sins. For the guilt is present, individable, indilutable, potent, knowing but one degree: the highest.
Indeed, Cicero, in his "Paradoxa Stoicorum", the paradoxes of the Stoics, duly reminds us:
"Parva, inquit, est res. At magna culpa; nec enim peccata rerum eventis, sed vitiis hominum metienda sunt. In quo peccatur, id potest aliud alio maius esse aut minus, ipsum quidem illud peccare, quoquo verteris, unum est." (par. 20)
Or: "Small is the thing, he says. But great the guilt; nor are the sins to be measured by the outcome of events (that they set in motion, HF), but by the vices of men. Whatever one sins against, that might be something more or less severe than something else; the very act of sinning itself, however, where ever you look, is one."
I do believe that the normal, basic condition of humanity is loneliness. Because no matter how much we express ourselves, we can never reach a complete "simpathy" with other humans. We may feel close at times, but it's a moment, a moment when there's a breach of this loneliness and you feel good with others, but the rest of the time you're alone because no one will be inside of you feeling the same way as you, and you won't be feeling exactly the same as others...
But that was in a way my original question: can we "really" understand ourselves, and therefore are we "allowed" not to trust other people's view of us, or is it possible that other people's view is even clearer than ours, as it's less biased?
Glowim wrote:Oh, God! How much did you write in a few days?!?
Oh, finally someone who thinks we are alone, like I think!! Now I feel...less alone!!
I don't know if human nature is having a loneliness feeling. If you are not a believer, or if you are not able to accept the idea noone will really understand you, yes: your destiny is to feel lonilenss. But if you believe in somethink, you will not feel that.
In the end, I repeat my point of view: noone can really understand us (at least, if you are not religious - or without drugs!). Other people cannot really understand us just because they are not inside us. In the meanwhile, we cannot have an objective vision of us, just because we are in a special "seat" to observe. Peraphs, If we can, we should accept (really accept, I mean!) this: we cannot be understood.
darkina wrote:Glowim wrote:Oh, God! How much did you write in a few days?!?
It's called weekend
Ok, but I'm an atheist. So...
darkina wrote:Glowim wrote:In the end, I repeat my point of view: noone can really understand us (at least, if you are not religious - or without drugs!). Other people cannot really understand us just because they are not inside us. In the meanwhile, we cannot have an objective vision of us, just because we are in a special "seat" to observe. Peraphs, If we can, we should accept (really accept, I mean!) this: we cannot be understood.
Yes, I think that's the solution. But - what do you mean with religion and drugs? How does religion make you understand who you really are? maybe it puts you in perspective, gives you a role in the universe, but you don't know yourself any better... you will still have doubts when making a decision, if something is good for you or not...
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