'Teach Yourself' Series

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Re: 'Teach Yourself' Series

Postby nighean-neonach » 2008-10-20, 19:57

Formiko wrote:I think Linguaphone is good if you have the cash.


They just cover the "big" languages though, don't they? I have just had a quick look at their website, and found nothing of interest to me 8-) :lol:
Writing poetry in: Scottish Gaelic, German, English.
Reading poetry in: Latin, Old Irish, French, Ancient Greek, Old Norse.
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Re: 'Teach Yourself' Series

Postby ILuvEire » 2008-10-21, 1:35

noir wrote:I think it's quite hard to say. Both TY and Colloquial vary in quality depending on the language and author. I haven't used many from Colloquial series, but I definately loved TY Hindi, while despised TY French. They can be anywhere from a bloated phrasebook to a good introduction.


This is true. Colloquial Portuguese is great, but TY Japanese, and TY Greek were terrible. It was less just an expensive phrasebook. Colloquial Irish was pretty straightforward, but at the end of the book I didn't know enough to hold a decent conversation, whereas Colloquial Portuguese has got me to the point where I can understand basic conversation in already (I'm around half-way through the book).
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Re: 'Teach Yourself' Series

Postby Formiko » 2008-10-21, 6:52

nighean-neonach wrote:
Formiko wrote:I think Linguaphone is good if you have the cash.


They just cover the "big" languages though, don't they? I have just had a quick look at their website, and found nothing of interest to me 8-) :lol:


They don't need to advertise. They're that good. See if your college or public library has a copy. Beweare, it is HUGE. It's basically a 6 month program. I'd only advise it for serious learners. It's commonnlyused with diplomats and missionaries.
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Re: 'Teach Yourself' Series

Postby nighean-neonach » 2008-10-21, 7:14

You probably misunderstood my remark. Linguaphone obviosly doesn't exist in the languages I'm learning or interested in. Besides, I'm not that convinced about it - from what i've seen of it it doesn't suit my needs. And I've seen lots of very good study materials at fairer prices. 6 months is not that "huge", by the way. The stuff we use at university is usually designed to be used during one or two years.
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Reading poetry in: Latin, Old Irish, French, Ancient Greek, Old Norse.
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Re: 'Teach Yourself' Series

Postby Formiko » 2008-10-21, 7:51

nighean-neonach wrote:You probably misunderstood my remark. Linguaphone obviosly doesn't exist in the languages I'm learning or interested in. Besides, I'm not that convinced about it - from what i've seen of it it doesn't suit my needs. And I've seen lots of very good study materials at fairer prices. 6 months is not that "huge", by the way. The stuff we use at university is usually designed to be used during one or two years.


I know what you mean, I meant it's huge for a home study course. Unfortunately, they only have 10 or 12 of the most common languages. I tutored Russian using the Linguaphone course. If one is diligent, near fluency can be reached with linguaphone. SInce I teach at a University, I have first hand experience that University Level language materials are a waste of time. You're better learning yourself, and then taking a couple of advanced classes to smooth out the rough edges :) I personally have always recommended a missionary crash course or a military course. I had a friend who took a Mormon Dutch Missionary course for 5 months and wasn't even Mormon (he had to pay for it though). His wife said his Dutch was flawless after 5 months of immersion. (He had just gotten married to a Dutch lady and felt it imperative to learn the language of his amour. )
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Re: 'Teach Yourself' Series

Postby loqu » 2008-10-21, 7:56

Formiko wrote:
nighean-neonach wrote:You probably misunderstood my remark. Linguaphone obviosly doesn't exist in the languages I'm learning or interested in. Besides, I'm not that convinced about it - from what i've seen of it it doesn't suit my needs. And I've seen lots of very good study materials at fairer prices. 6 months is not that "huge", by the way. The stuff we use at university is usually designed to be used during one or two years.


I know what you mean, I meant it's huge for a home study course. Unfortunately, they only have 10 or 12 of the most common languages. I tutored Russian using the Linguaphone course. If one is diligent, near fluency can be reached with linguaphone. SInce I teach at a University, I have first hand experience that University Level language materials are a waste of time. You're better learning yourself, and then taking a couple of advanced classes to smooth out the rough edges :) I personally have always recommended a missionary crash course or a military course. I had a friend who took a Mormon Dutch Missionary course for 5 months and wasn't even Mormon (he had to pay for it though). His wife said his Dutch was flawless after 5 months of immersion. (He had just gotten married to a Dutch lady and felt it imperative to learn the language of his amour. )


How much was it? I'd have no problem in pretending to praise any god I don't care about for a couple of months if that means being fluent in one more language!
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Re: 'Teach Yourself' Series

Postby nighean-neonach » 2008-10-21, 8:37

Formiko wrote:SInce I teach at a University, I have first hand experience that University Level language materials are a waste of time.


We have some pretty good ones here, most teachers use a combination of materials or (partly) write their own stuff anyway.
I usually learn the basics of a language by myself, and then I walk into a level 2 or 3 (second year) class and ask whether I can take part - it usually works fine :)
Writing poetry in: Scottish Gaelic, German, English.
Reading poetry in: Latin, Old Irish, French, Ancient Greek, Old Norse.
Talking to people in the shop in: Lithuanian, Norwegian, Irish Gaelic, Saami.
Listening to people talking in the shop in: Icelandic, Greenlandic, Finnish.

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Re: 'Teach Yourself' Series

Postby ILuvEire » 2008-10-21, 16:22

loqu wrote:How much was it? I'd have no problem in pretending to praise any god I don't care about for a couple of months if that means being fluent in one more language!


Hah!

I should look into this, a church near my school has Thai and Mandarin immersion courses. Or I could try Hebrew at my local synagogue. I hope they won't have any problems with me...
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Re: 'Teach Yourself' Series

Postby Smitty » 2008-10-21, 16:23

ILuvEire wrote:This is true. Colloquial Portuguese is great, but TY Japanese, and TY Greek were terrible. It was less just an expensive phrasebook. Colloquial Irish was pretty straightforward, but at the end of the book I didn't know enough to hold a decent conversation, whereas Colloquial Portuguese has got me to the point where I can understand basic conversation in already (I'm around half-way through the book).


TY Japanese was pretty bad, but at least the bookstore gave me my refund. :) So would you recommend Colloquial Portuguese then?

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Re: 'Teach Yourself' Series

Postby ILuvEire » 2008-10-21, 19:32

Smitty wrote:TY Japanese was pretty bad, but at least the bookstore gave me my refund. :) So would you recommend Colloquial Portuguese then?


Definitely. I love it. :)
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Re: 'Teach Yourself' Series

Postby Narbleh » 2008-10-21, 20:02

SInce I teach at a University, I have first hand experience that University Level language materials are a waste of time.

Stereotypes, stereotypes. All the French materials I used in university classes were excellent. The ASL materials I used at community college were excellent. The Swedish materials I used were also excellent. When I went to Quebec, the materials there were excellent as well. Maybe it's just your university ;)

I have some exposure to TY. My partner got their Finnish book, and it was quite frankly horrible. It just throws words at you with vague grammatical explanations that say "sometimes" and "but not always" but never tell you what they mean. They also use conjugated nouns/verbs in the vocabulary lists :nono:
The TY Swedish was pretty good, though the audio materials were a bit lacking on speakers. Some speakers play two parts in one reading. I did have a problem with the vocabulary lists, which contain some of the most random crap you'll ever see. Hm yes yes, reindeer herding. Yes, cesium content. Quite essential. This is also a problem with the Colloquial Swedish book.
TY Esperanto is actually pretty good, though I prefer the older edition. Useful words, logical explanations, interesting drawings and diagrams... I used it and so did my partner. We both liked it.
TY Handwriting or whatever it's called is a waste of time. It focuses strictly on the Italic hand, and if you follow its method, you'll end up with huge, bulbous handwriting.
My partner also tried TY Danish but didn't get very far because, well, it's Danish.
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Re: 'Teach Yourself' Series

Postby nighean-neonach » 2008-10-21, 20:08

Narbleh wrote:They also use conjugated nouns/verbs in the vocabulary lists :nono:


"Colloquial" also does that. Lots of "self-taught" language courses do that. That's what I meant when I said they don't really count as textbooks for me, and that I prefer the materials we use in university. Those usually expect the readers to be thinking persons who don't fall of their chairs in horror when an inflected word form appears in the text, and the basic form appears in the glossary. And those materials are intelligently structured so that there aren't any random inflected forms thrown in, everything in the texts and dialogues is based on the grammar you have learned so far.
Writing poetry in: Scottish Gaelic, German, English.
Reading poetry in: Latin, Old Irish, French, Ancient Greek, Old Norse.
Talking to people in the shop in: Lithuanian, Norwegian, Irish Gaelic, Saami.
Listening to people talking in the shop in: Icelandic, Greenlandic, Finnish.

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Re: 'Teach Yourself' Series

Postby ILuvEire » 2008-10-21, 21:02

nighean-neonach wrote:
Narbleh wrote:They also use conjugated nouns/verbs in the vocabulary lists :nono:


"Colloquial" also does that. Lots of "self-taught" language courses do that. That's what I meant when I said they don't really count as textbooks for me, and that I prefer the materials we use in university. Those usually expect the readers to be thinking persons who don't fall of their chairs in horror when an inflected word form appears in the text, and the basic form appears in the glossary. And those materials are intelligently structured so that there aren't any random inflected forms thrown in, everything in the texts and dialogues is based on the grammar you have learned so far.

Yes, I kind of understand what you mean. Someone that completes a TY or Colloquial course doesn't know more than the basic grammar of the language. That's too true.

I think they are useful for travellers, or for people like me, who are interested in the language but don't want to spend ~50USD on a uni level textbook and not like the language.

*The following is just a statement in my expirience, I'm not really aiming it at anyone in particular*

Also, in all my formal language learning expirience (community college courses on ASL, and one for German) the teacher uses more than just one text. In German we are using two textbooks, a workbook, Primsleur (sp?) courses, plus bits of various other texts. It's impossible to pick up one book, work through it, and be fluent in the language.
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Re: 'Teach Yourself' Series

Postby nighean-neonach » 2008-10-21, 21:06

ILuvEire wrote:I think they are useful for travellers, or for people like me, who are interested in the language but don't want to spend ~50USD on a uni level textbook and not like the language.


I buy lots of books second hand, or get them at the uni library :) Otherwise I could not afford this at all.

Also, in all my formal language learning expirience (community college courses on ASL, and one for German) the teacher uses more than just one text. In German we are using two textbooks, a workbook, Primsleur (sp?) courses, plus bits of various other texts. It's impossible to pick up one book, work through it, and be fluent in the language.


Yeah, I think I mentioned that somewhere above as well. Whether I'm studying a language on my own, or attending classes at university, it always involves several textbooks, plus audio materials, online stuff, etc. :)
Writing poetry in: Scottish Gaelic, German, English.
Reading poetry in: Latin, Old Irish, French, Ancient Greek, Old Norse.
Talking to people in the shop in: Lithuanian, Norwegian, Irish Gaelic, Saami.
Listening to people talking in the shop in: Icelandic, Greenlandic, Finnish.

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Re: 'Teach Yourself' Series

Postby Formiko » 2008-10-21, 21:54

Narbleh wrote:Stereotypes, stereotypes. All the French materials I used in university classes were excellent. The ASL materials I used at community college were excellent. The Swedish materials I used were also excellent. When I went to Quebec, the materials there were excellent as well. Maybe it's just your university ;)


You're misunderstanding me. Teaching yourself is a LOT better than a classroom setting. 4 years of University level French MAY of may not get you to a decent level. Teaching youself, learning what YOU want instead of having to keep at the pace of the professor is far superior.

Nighean-neonach does exactly what I'm referring too.
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Re: 'Teach Yourself' Series

Postby ILuvEire » 2008-10-21, 22:22

Formiko wrote:You're misunderstanding me. Teaching yourself is a LOT better than a classroom setting. 4 years of University level French MAY of may not get you to a decent level. Teaching youself, learning what YOU want instead of having to keep at the pace of the professor is far superior.

Nighean-neonach does exactly what I'm referring too.

I agree! I notice it in my German class. Some students grasp one concept minutes after its introduction, and then have to spend days on another point that everyone else considers "easy." When you study by yourself you can take each point at your speed.

Too true Formiko, too true.
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Re: 'Teach Yourself' Series

Postby sa wulfs » 2008-10-21, 23:01

It varies from person to person. As for me, I need a teacher nagging me constantly in order to make progress.
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Re: 'Teach Yourself' Series

Postby Narbleh » 2008-10-21, 23:04

And after a certain level, it's very, very hard to make any more progress unless you have the help of a native speaker there to practice with and delve into complex grammar/vocab stuff with.
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Re: 'Teach Yourself' Series

Postby Formiko » 2008-10-22, 1:12

Narbleh wrote:And after a certain level, it's very, very hard to make any more progress unless you have the help of a native speaker there to practice with and delve into complex grammar/vocab stuff with.


Which is why I said that you teach yourself, then when you get to a certain level, take advanced classes.
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Re: 'Teach Yourself' Series

Postby nighean-neonach » 2008-10-22, 5:43

Formiko wrote:You're misunderstanding me. Teaching yourself is a LOT better than a classroom setting. 4 years of University level French MAY of may not get you to a decent level. Teaching youself, learning what YOU want instead of having to keep at the pace of the professor is far superior.


Not necessarily. The most important thing with language learning is communication, input from living persons. A classroom might be crap, but at least you have a native speaker (or near native fluent speaker) standing in front of you who gives you feedback and who plans and structures the lessons. Many people who "study" a language on their own never get above the level of leafing through textbooks on a more or less regular basis... I know lots of people who have been self-studying Gaelic for ages (and by that, I really mean for 10 years, for 20 years), and they can't hold the most basic conversation with a native speaker.
Teaching yourself can be a good idea if you are intelligent, disciplined and know something about the theory and background of language acquisition. With most other people, it simply doesn't work - especially for the beginning stages, because many people have a talent of making loads of mistakes and getting loads of things completely wrong, before they find their way into the language, and at that stage it is frustrating as well as dangerous for them to muddle through on their own.
Writing poetry in: Scottish Gaelic, German, English.
Reading poetry in: Latin, Old Irish, French, Ancient Greek, Old Norse.
Talking to people in the shop in: Lithuanian, Norwegian, Irish Gaelic, Saami.
Listening to people talking in the shop in: Icelandic, Greenlandic, Finnish.


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