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Re: Scots discussion

Posted: 2009-11-02, 7:28
by Riptide
So when is there going to be a "The Person Efter Me" game for this language? :)

Also, how long would it take for a native English speaker to learn this language?

Which is the easiest celtic language to learn?

Posted: 2009-11-05, 23:18
by Katarinka
I am an italian native speaker with basic english level. I am interested in learning Welsh, Irish or Scottisch Gaelic.
Which one of those languages has the easiest grammar and pronunciation?

Re: Which is the easiest celtic language to learn?

Posted: 2009-11-05, 23:27
by YngNghymru
Welsh has the easiest spelling and probably the easiest pronunciation as well. I don't know about grammar, but it doesn't have cases to worry about. However, I'm interested as to why you've posted this here, in Scots - a Germanic dialect of/relative to English influenced by Gaelic and Old Norse and spoken in Scotland- rather than in the Welsh, Irish, or Gaelic forums, which are all dedicated to actual Celtic languages.

Re: Which is the easiest celtic language to learn?

Posted: 2009-11-05, 23:55
by Quevenois
Ok.

Re: Which is the easiest celtic language to learn?

Posted: 2009-11-06, 11:57
by YngNghymru
Quevenois wrote:To me, the easiest Celtic language must be Welsh, for pronunciation and grammar. But it doesn't mean it's easy either! It's just relative!

Irish and Gaelic have declensions, a complicated spelling and pronunciation. But they are nicer than Welsh (in my own opinion!). They look and sound more "bewitching", like.


I would agree with that. Irish and Gaelic both have beautiful (if stupid) orthographies. They sound pretty similar to Welsh, though, to be honest...

Re: Which is the easiest celtic language to learn?

Posted: 2009-11-06, 20:09
by Quevenois
Ok.

Re: Which is the easiest celtic language to learn?

Posted: 2009-11-06, 20:54
by linguoboy
Katarinka wrote:I am an italian native speaker with basic english level. I am interested in learning Welsh, Irish or Scottisch Gaelic. Which one of those languages has the easiest grammar and pronunciation?

That depends entirely on what you find difficult. Personally, I started with Welsh and moved to Irish later in life. But I don't find one "hard" and the other "easy"; they both have their complications but in different areas.

Also, I have to agree with Quevenois about Gaelic orthography: If you think it's "stupid" then it goes to show that you don't really understand the pronunciation or underlying phonology of these languages. I've seen several attempts to "improve" them, all of which end up less accurate and less usable than the system in use already.

Re: Basic Scots that you need to know!

Posted: 2009-12-17, 16:08
by gaberlunzie1707
Sean of the Dead wrote:Also, which dialect/dialects are the farthest from English?

Hi.

Shetlandic (classed "Insular Scots") is what you'll be after. It's a mix between odd spoken Northern Scots and Norn influences (old Norse). Unlike English as it's the furthest away, even unlike Scots. It uses the 'ö' with the two dots above it and other characters.

But that had sadly been hammered but are trying to maintain. Very little online however. It is a small remote place. It's being done direct straight into the schools where it's needed. They have a local group doing that.

Click the song audio "Boannie Tammie Scolla" below for an example of this begin used. This is from a new CD to teach the young.

http://www.scotslanguage.com/articles/view/1620

I am Scottish and understand only a few words. People might even think that it's Gaelic or something totally different but it comes under Scots, hence why Scots is rightfully recognised as it covers a number of things like this and not just the situation in 2009.

Pure bulk standard Scots can be unlike English too, just like the Shetlandic. There's as much from mainland Europe in the thing, such as Norse, German, Icelandic and others.

For example, the proper Fife dialect (east central) called 'succur' for sugar, 'bouler' for kettle, and 'chambra' for parlour - all from the French thanks to trade links. That's only a few examples. Now magnify, coupled with a very strong accent. Sadly these words doesn't occur now though.

Any of these modern dialects - you can increase by many times and you may get to where they could or should be. I think it will get there but after some decades and hard work. It's only now people like myself are realising this even exists.

Re: Which is the easiest celtic language to learn?

Posted: 2009-12-25, 21:03
by neoni
welsh spelling is easier than gaelic's? are you all mad??

Re: Small Scots Wordlist, with norse/germanic+English

Posted: 2009-12-25, 21:07
by neoni
i always thought that both the irish and scots took bra from the vikings seperately. the closest we have in scottish gaelic is nothing like it in terms of pronunciation or meaning.

Re: Which is the easiest celtic language to learn?

Posted: 2009-12-25, 22:05
by YngNghymru
neoni wrote:welsh spelling is easier than gaelic's? are you all mad??


Welsh is totally phonemic. Gaelic has lots of unnecessary consonants which Irish cuts down on quite a bit.

Re: Which is the easiest celtic language to learn?

Posted: 2009-12-25, 22:19
by Quevenois
welsh spelling is easier than gaelic's? are you all mad??


Of course it's easier. You learn the few rules of the Welsh spelling within a few minutes. Welsh looks unpronounceable at first sight because there are many w's and y's, but once you know w is oo/w and y is roughly i or uh, it's easy.

For Gaelic you need much more time, to learn the rules... plus the many exceptions, actually you need to learn the pronunciation of new words by heart, in case there'd be exceptions... consonants, clusters of consonants, clusters of vowels, diphthongs, stressed and unstressed syllables, pre- and post-astpirations, and so on.

Re: Which is the easiest celtic language to learn?

Posted: 2009-12-26, 1:10
by neoni
i've only been doing welsh for a couple days, but i just can't get my head around the spelling. i don't remember having any problems with gaelic at all, though.

Re: Which is the easiest celtic language to learn?

Posted: 2009-12-26, 1:14
by neoni
YngNghymru wrote:
neoni wrote:welsh spelling is easier than gaelic's? are you all mad??


Welsh is totally phonemic. Gaelic has lots of unnecessary consonants which Irish cuts down on quite a bit.


there really aren't all that many unnecessary consonants, and the ones that do exist give insights into words that have been completely lost in irish spelling. compare the irish "daichead" with the gaelic "dà fhichead"

Re: Which is the easiest celtic language to learn?

Posted: 2009-12-26, 1:29
by YngNghymru
neoni wrote:i've only been doing welsh for a couple days, but i just can't get my head around the spelling. i don't remember having any problems with gaelic at all, though.


Honestly?

a - a or ɑː
e - ɛ or more usually e:
i - ɪ or i:
o - ɔ or o:
u - i (the difference between 'i' and 'u' denotes etymology, homonyms, etc etc)
w - ʊ or more commonly u:
y - ɪ in final syllables, ə elsewhere

the acute accent denotes that half of a diphthong is to be pronounced differently or separates homonyms. The 'to bach' or 'hat' shows that the vowel is long (a can be pronounced a or ɑː, â is always ɑː).

The consonants are pretty much English, apart from ff/f, ll and the voiceless nasals/rhotic (which are more a problem with phonology than anything).

Whereas Gaelic has all sorts of apparently weird things for English speakers to get over (such as 'th' representing 'h' and loads of vowels turning into schwas).

Why is this still in this forum? :P

Re: Which is the easiest celtic language to learn?

Posted: 2009-12-26, 2:19
by Psi-Lord
If I may throw my 10¢ in, one thing to remember about Gaelic orthography is that it’s indeed pretty logical and natural and all that if one departs from the oral language; however, since most learners actually depart from the written language instead, it’s usually seen as puzzling and confusing. At least that was my experience during the time I studied Scottish Gaelic, to the extent that it sometimes did feel like I actually had to learn pronunciation on a word by word basis. :roll:

I’ve never dabbled with Welsh, though, even if I’ve been thinking about it these days, so I can’t draw any parallels myself. Being exposed to Scottish Gaelic, though, the first time I read more about Welsh orthography and grammar, it did surprise me as being pretty much unlike it.

P.S.: I just had to quote this particular paragraph from a page on the myths involving Welsh pronunciation:

[The idea that Welsh spelling is completely logical, so that the pronunciation is easy] might be more kindly described as a convenient benevolent fiction, and it feels cruel to pick holes in such a comforting idea. Most people know that it’s not completely logical, but apart from the letter Y having two distinct pronunciations (sometimes roughly like English hit and sometimes more like hut) they take comfort in the fact that the spelling is pretty straightforward. So it is, more or less, until you start looking more closely at it, and then you realise that the fine detail is actually a lot more complex than you first thought – and there’s really not much advice available for those who want to understand thoroughly. But that’s for another day, and another webpage. . .

Gaelic in Dumbarton area

Posted: 2010-02-07, 20:46
by Ken77
Hi,i'm hoping that someone on this forum can help me find the answer to something that i've been wanting to know for years...was Gaelic ever spoken in Dumbarton? The reason i'd like to know the true answer to this is to settle an argument.My girlfriend rants every now and then about the English stealing our identity and language,which she says was origionally Gaelic.I disagreed with her,saying that it was never spoken in this part of Scotland :nope: ,and that it was only in the North or on the Islands.I've never been able to get an educated answer from anyone,i've asked a few people and they either say yes or no,but i think they're just guessing.A few years ago,the sign at Dumbarton Central train station changed to one which had it written in English and Gaelic which maybe hints that it was,but i remember at the time some people(i was one of them)saying that it was a complete waste of time and money.My girlfriend says the clue as to why English wasn't the original language here is in the name! Fair point,but i still don't think it was Gaelic.Can anyone help please?Thanks,Kenny.

Re: Gaelic in Dumbarton area

Posted: 2010-02-07, 20:56
by Sean of the Dead
Wrong forum buddy. :ohwell: :P

Re: Gaelic in Dumbarton area

Posted: 2010-02-07, 23:24
by Quevenois
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dumbarton

Looks like they spoke (once) a language close to Welsh, many centuries ago.
Now I dunno if that language (long dead) was replaced by Gaelic and then by Scots and English, or directly by Scots and English...

Re: Gaelic in Dumbarton area

Posted: 2010-02-07, 23:51
by Eoghan
Quevenois wrote:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dumbarton

Looks like they spoke (once) a language close to Welsh, many centuries ago.
Now I dunno if that language (long dead) was replaced by Gaelic and then by Scots and English, or directly by Scots and English...


The name is a Gaelic version of The Britons' Burgh, suggesting that the first language in Dumbarton was a Brythonic one. Gaelic however has been spoken in Dunbarton for ages, and the name is indeed Gaelic to begin with, from Dùn Breatainn.