Scots

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Sean of the Dead
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Re: Is anybody here actually a NATIVE speaker of Scots?

Postby Sean of the Dead » 2009-04-08, 23:52

ThomasUK is. :wink:
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Re: Is anybody here actually a NATIVE speaker of Scots?

Postby neoni » 2009-04-09, 0:18

ah am an aw but ah dinnae like writin it doon. ayeways looks a bit dumb.
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Re: Is anybody here actually a NATIVE speaker of Scots?

Postby Gibbermeister » 2009-04-09, 23:27

neoni wrote:ah am an aw but ah dinnae like writin it doon. ayeways looks a bit dumb.



Ah ken exactly whit ye mean Neoni. Suhhin tells me you and me will get on well - the humility thing mibbe!

It's true, there's the stigma aspect but tae be honest Ah see nae real future fur the 'language'. Fur me personally this means less than it probbly shuid, baith ma sons are Spanish speakers so the Scots dees wae me - ma boays unnerstanun it but cannae spaeak it - at best broken English fur thaim, but anyway, Ah wis jeist wonderin hou many ae us there wis,.

_Btw, whaur yese aw fae?

(Me-? Lanarkshire)

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Re: Basic Scots that you need to know!

Postby Gibbermeister » 2009-04-09, 23:43

Ah'm sorry but OK, I'm too polite tae say the original list is utter pish so I won't. Come on. Get real naebdy speaks like that!

And again dialectal phrases are all important if you really wanna go for it - even though they'll know you're foreign anyway!!!

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Scots Science Fiction Story

Postby GDJ » 2009-04-17, 13:12

My short story The Gondolier has been translated into Scots and appears on my website today:

http://www.garethdjones.co.uk/2009/04/friday-flash-fiction-gondolier.html

It sounds great. I'm really pleased with it. I have another translation due to appear in Lallans magazine.

Both were translated by Steve Porter.
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Re: Jist drappin by tae say hello.

Postby moujick » 2009-04-30, 22:32

This is mah first post oan this hail forum an ah consider masel as native a Scots speaker as ye'll get fur ma ain generation. Ye micht see me hingin aboot the Gaidhlig forum as weel cos ahm learnin that the noo tae.

Ahm fae Ayrshire by the wiy...

Goat tae say ah dae actually like this hail "nae orthography " hing, mair languages shid try it oot...

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Re: Is anybody here actually a NATIVE speaker of Scots?

Postby moujick » 2009-04-30, 22:34

Ah'm ur tae!!! (the Ayrshire variety)

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Re: Scots Lessons

Postby moujick » 2009-04-30, 22:45

ThomasUK wrote:It's mainly in the lowlands and highlands that people speak Scots. Central Scotland, due to the higher amount of visitors and a larger amount of English influence tend to speak Scottish English along with Scots English.



WHit? Yir hin'en. Firstly in the hielands Scots wisnae historically spoken it wis Gaidhlig an' maislty they tend tae speak English wi a Highland accent. There is a wheen a Scots spoken in central Scotland, which itsel is pairt ae the "lowlands", so ah've goat tae say yer bletherin a bit. An anither hing, ah'd like tae ken whit yer distinction atween Scottish English an Scots English is?

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Re: Scots discussion

Postby jessikt » 2009-06-11, 11:40

My Dad is from Scotland and I have a n00b-ish question. :oops:

My Dad has lived in Canada for over 30 years but he still has a pretty strong accent (my Hungarian boyfriend [who speaks English fluently] and some of my friends in Canada have a hard time understanding him sometimes!) We've had a lot of "The Broons" and "Oor Wullie" comics at home over the years and I can understand them, are they written in Scots?

What is the difference between speaking Scots and a Scottish accent in English? I've notcied that when my Dad speaks with someone else from Scotland their accents get considerably stronger, haha. I'm sorry for the silly question, but I didn't realize that Scots was an actual language! (I've sadly never been to Scotland but I am going to try to go this Summer!)
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Re: Scots discussion

Postby Zorba » 2009-06-11, 17:34

Hello! :D This isn't a n00bish question at all, it's one that's been troubling linguists for a long time.

First of all, a bit of history. During the medieval period, Middle English was spoken throughout Britain. In the late medieval and early modern period, the variety of Middle English in Lowland Scotland began to develop independently, with its own innovations in lexis (vocabulary) and phonology (the sound inventory of the language). Scotland was independent during these years, which encouraged the development of a new variety of the language although there was always extensive contact and cultural exchange with England.

During the late medieval / early modern period, Scots was something like an "official" government language: documents, textbooks, poems and stories were all written in Scots. The orthography of the language was not standardized but this was not unusual for a language of the time. There is no exact line between "dialect" and "language" (mutual intelligbility is sometimes used as a critierion, but that's hard to assess) but most linguists agree that Scots can be called a separate "language" during this period.

Increasing contact with England, and eventually union in 1603 meant that Standard English began to replace Scots. This affected the written language much more than the spoken language, and it affected lexis (vocabulary) and syntax (grammar) much more than phonology (pronunciation). By the 18th Century, written Scots was a rarity. The well-known Scots poems of Robbie Burns and his contemporaries are stylized (i.e. they were supposed to look 'old-fashioned' and 'non-standard' even in their time). Needless to say, the fact that they are stylized does not detract from their literary quality, but it is questionable whether they can be treated as an authentic record of how Scots was used in the 18th Century.

From the 18th Century to the present, Scots has seen more and more contact with English. It's now difficult to discern the difference between "Scottish English" and "Scots" even in the spoken language, especially in the cities. Nearly all Scottish people can "code-switch" (i.e. change their accent) according to whom they're speaking; so they'll use more Scots elements with their friends and family and more Scottish English elements at work or when talking to an outsider. This is exactly what your dad is doing and all speakers of any language do this to some extent. :D

Written Scots is largely still restricted to literary purposes like the comics that you cite or some modern poetry. There is a move to revive written Scots in both Scotland and Northern Ireland, but it's unclear what purpose this would serve. Today, Written Scots (like your comics) is so full of Anglicisms that it's possible for any English speaker with a bit of patience to read it. That said, there are varieties of spoken Scots that you may struggle to understand, especially if you're listening into a conversation between two people in rural areas who don't know you're there. (They will automatically code-switch to a more comprehensible variety of the language if they realize you're listening!).

I hope this helps. Enjoy Scotland if you go, it's a wonderful place. :D

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Re: Scots discussion

Postby YngNghymru » 2009-06-11, 18:15

jessikt wrote:What is the difference between speaking Scots and a Scottish accent in English? I've notcied that when my Dad speaks with someone else from Scotland their accents get considerably stronger, haha. I'm sorry for the silly question, but I didn't realize that Scots was an actual language! (I've sadly never been to Scotland but I am going to try to go this Summer!)


Whether Scots is an actual language or not is a point of debate even between fully-qualified linguists! It's easier to think of Scots and the accent as a kind of continuum - since they have almost identical grammar, and many words used in Scots have slipped into daily Scottish English and vise versa. As Zorba said, speakers code-switch between Scots and English depending on social setting etc - which means they either move closer to standard English vocabulary and forms or towards Scots.
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Re: Scots discussion

Postby jessikt » 2009-06-14, 15:03

Thanks for your helpful anwers! :)
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Skype practice and a dictionary

Postby Sean of the Dead » 2009-06-16, 23:34

Say if I were to learn Scots (which would really be freaking awesome and not hard at all), would any natives here be able to chat with me for practice on Skype? Without natives to talk to, it would be quite hard to learn Scots, since I can understand like half the words in a text, but just about nothing when Scots is spoken. :D And since there is no standard orthography for it. :( )

Ok, if I learn Scots, I'd probably learn the Doric dialect (it's my favorite; it's so cool! :mrgreen: ), I'd obviously need a dictionary (or a large word list, since Scots' grammar is the same as English's). Does anyone have any recommendations for what I could buy? In the meantime I'll search for online things and books to buy, but for any language I like to know what other people are using. :D

Oh, and if anyone happens to know, what do Doric speakers call their dialect? I know for Scots "Scoats", "Lallans", and "Ullans" are used, but I don't know what the native name of the dialect is.

And if anyone knows of a dictionary/word list for an Insular Scots dialect, I'd love to buy one of those. I'd learn one of those dialects even just for the Norn loans. :lol: 8-)
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Re: Skype practice and a dictionary

Postby Eoghan » 2009-06-17, 9:48

Sean of the Dead wrote:Say if I were to learn Scots (which would really be freaking awesome and not hard at all), would any natives here be able to chat with me for practice on Skype? Without natives to talk to, it would be quite hard to learn Scots, since I can understand like half the words in a text, but just about nothing when Scots is spoken. :D And since there is no standard orthography for it. :( )

Ok, if I learn Scots, I'd probably learn the Doric dialect (it's my favorite; it's so cool! :mrgreen: ), I'd obviously need a dictionary (or a large word list, since Scots' grammar is the same as English's). Does anyone have any recommendations for what I could buy? In the meantime I'll search for online things and books to buy, but for any language I like to know what other people are using. :D

Oh, and if anyone happens to know, what do Doric speakers call their dialect? I know for Scots "Scoats", "Lallans", and "Ullans" are used, but I don't know what the native name of the dialect is.


I wouldnae completely agree wi ye, ra leid has its ain grammar ... Tis true it micht be very close tae Inglis, ach ra grammar differs fae place tae place ...
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Albeit the Scot in me is of the Western stock and the red of the Cairngorms, the heather and the Lewissian gneiss, the Viking in me was there when you uttered the first word of your leid.

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Re: Skype practice and a dictionary

Postby Sean of the Dead » 2009-06-17, 16:08

Ok fine, but it's about as close as Luxembourgish or Yiddish to German, if not closer. ;) :P
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Re: Basic Scots that you need to know!

Postby Sean of the Dead » 2009-06-17, 17:33

DelBoy wrote:Yep, all around the lowlands (depending on who you speak to - I think it's more of a class thing than a geography thing, from my experiences).
Although I've not been up to Aberdeen, I hear the Doric is crazy up there!

Why do you say Doric is crazy? Do you mean that it's hard to understand or what?

Also, which dialect/dialects are the farthest from English? For example, this Doric recording (the one titled "European Scots), I could only understand about 10 words, but I could understand quite a bit more of the text of it.
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Re: Basic Scots that you need to know!

Postby Ghost » 2009-06-17, 18:36

See ye efter. [si 'jəftʰə] - See you later.

"Efter" in Swedish means "after"...

EDIT:
[...]
It's ae braw day, is it! [ɪts ə 'brɔ: de: ɪz 'ɪtʰ] - It's a fine day, isn't it?

"Bra" in Swedish means "good".
[...]
Basic vocabulary:
[...]
bairn / wean [bɛ:rn] / [wi:n] - child

"Barn" in Swedish means "child".

Now you know.
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Scots, is it a language or dialect?

Postby shizi_sprinkles09 » 2009-06-17, 23:13

So, I was just curious, do you guys consider Scots to be a completely different language than English. I speak American English and I can understand Scots pretty good and I have never been exposed to the languge before. I'm sure that there are a few words I wouldn't know, but it's the same with my dialect. For example it would be hard for someboddy to understand when I say "Wallago I got my bug runnin' 'cause we're fixin' to go to the show." That sentence makes sence to me and my people, but it wouldn't make much sense to someone from New York. Sometimes it's impossible for people to understand the Oklahoma dialect, but we don't have our own language. It's just a different dialect. :?:

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Re: Scots, is it a language or dialect?

Postby Sean of the Dead » 2009-06-17, 23:18

I believe Scots is a language and should be treated as such. It can be quite easy for a fluent speaker of English to understand written Scots, but when spoken it can be quite incomprehensible.

For an example of this, listen to this recording first, by itself, then listen to it again, but this time read the text along with it. :wink: You won't think easy to understand any longer. :D

And I'm guessing your sentence means:

"A while ago I got my car running/fixed/working, because we want to go to the show."
Am I close?
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Re: Scots, is it a language or dialect?

Postby YngNghymru » 2009-06-18, 10:31

shizi_sprinkles09 wrote:For example it would be hard for someboddy to understand when I say "Wallago I got my bug runnin' 'cause we're fixin' to go to the show."


That's actually quite easy to understand, from context. :P Your accent might or might not make it more difficult to understand. I consider Scots to be a separate language, because when spoken, it is incomprehensible to the untrained ear.
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