Plattdüütsch/ Nedersaksisch: Low Saxon discussion group

[frank74]

Moin Moin! Moi!

Welcome to the Low Saxon discussion group!

Recently, more and more people at Unilang appeared to be interested in this West-Germanic language, so here is an initiative to study it more structually.

Low Saxon or Low German is a language, or rather a group of dialects, that is/ are spoken in the North of Germany, and North and East of the Netherlands. In the next message there will be more to read about it.

This thread is a discussion group rather than a course for two reasons:
1) Currently there is no one that knows the language well enough to give a thorough language course
2) There are several versions of the language, that are, luckily, quite well mutually comprehensible

But that does not stop us to get a better grasp of it by learning from each other and coming up with online and written resources! For the time being, I was propmoted to be moderator by Saaropean.
If there are native speakers or other people with knowledge of the language or one of its dialects, please let us know @@! Then you can be co-moderator/ tutor.

For this discussion group it can be usefull to have some knowledge of Dutch and/ or German, but this is not an absolute requirement. We will do as much as possible in English, or multilingual, depending on who wants to join.

So: let's get started, and join!
Nu geiht dat los, darum: Kiek mol wedder in!

[frank74]

What is Low Saxon?

Low Saxon is a language, or rather a group of group of dialects, spoken in North Germany and North and East Netherlands. It is part of the southern group of the Germanic language family. Because there is not one standardised version, there are several writing and spelling systems, based on either Dutch or German spelling.
It is recognized by the EU as regional language, and is protected by the European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages of the Council of Europe. It used to be the Lingua Franca in the Hanseatic period during the late European Middle Ages, and was used from France to Scandinavia, and Britain to Russia as a trade language. Swedish, and others, even still have some loan words from that period. The Hanse/Hanze or Hanseatic Union was a free trade union of cities. Many cities in all countries surrounding the Baltic and North Seas are still called Hanseatic cities nowadays. The hanseatic times are among others reflected in the architecture of older builings and city plans.

Low Saxon differs considerably from German and is actually more close to Dutch. However, most Dutch(wo)men not coming from the areas or only capable of speaking standard Dutch usually comprehend very little. The comprehension between speakers of different versions within the group is not always perfect, but usually without any problems.

In Germany it's most widely known as "Plattdütsch" or "Platt", in the Netherlands by local and regional names such as Grunnegs, Twents, Sallands, Stellingwerfs, Veluws, Achterhoeks and Drents.
North German TV/radio and local Dutch broadcasting services provide programs, news and talkshows regularly.
http://www1.ndr.de/
http://www.rtvnoord.nl/ http://www.rtvoost.nl/ http://www.omroepgelderland.nl/

In wikipedia there is map depicting the approximate language area:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nieders%C3 ... he_Sprache
In the Netherlands the yellow should stretch a little further to the west, as it also includes a region called the "Veluwe".

Now some online resources. Here you can find text examples and further explanations (some in German or Dutch):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low_Saxon_language
http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/low-saxon/po.htm
http://www.ins-bremen.de/
http://www.grunnegertoal.nl/

There even is wikipedia in Low Saxon or Plattdüütsch:
http://nds.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoofdsiet

[Troels]

Hello Frank!

Nice to see this forum has finally been established - I've waited for this quite long. It's a very fascinating language to me because of the influence it had on Danish, my mothertongue, the many loan words and so on... I'm really looking forward for a great forum. I hope this'll work out and that we'll soon have some natives to help us here!

Troels

[Nukalurk]

Finally!

If you know German, this link will help you a bit: http://www.radiobremen.de/online/platt/kurs/.

[aiva]

Moin!

Ik bün baff! Een plattdüütschen Schnackplatz!!!

[allemaalmeezinge]

Wer kann denn hier Plattdüütsch snacken?

[aiva]

Wer kann denn hier Plattdüütsch snacken?

Moin yabba!

Frank un ik köönt dat!

[allemaalmeezinge]

Ik kann'et ja nit wirklijk, witt aber ook nit wie ik dat lernen köönt. Ik bün aber erstount, dat da sou snell een antwort kaam. Ik kiek mir nou mol die links ouven gründlihge aan. Un denn mut ik kieken, wie man dat Plattdüüütsch skriben kann..

O mij god..

[frank74]

Moin!
Dat wör woll wat stille von mien siet in de aflopen maanden: ik heff veel om de oren hatt.

It was a bit quiet from my side the past few months: I had to finish a thesis/ work, and I have moved to a different place, but here I'm back again...
Anyway, let's continue with Low German.

Although some of us do speak (a bit of) the language, it is probably safest to use the links in this thread for studying the language in detail. Especially two links offer nice study material:

1) The Radio Bremen link supplied by Amikeco is an entire course, including audio-files (but requires German knowledge):
http://www.radiobremen.de/online/platt/kurs/
The dialect is based on the city of Bremen.

2) Plattmaster is a site offering explanations in Low Saxon, German and Englisch. It includes Grammar-tables and a simple word list. I guess it's Hamburg-based, but grammar and many words are generally applicable.
http://www.plattmaster.de/startenglish.htm

I suggest the following goals for this thread:
explain & discuss questions about pronunciation
talk about grammar & spelling
talk about Low Saxon in General
try to practice sentences
find nice and funny Low Saxon links

Is this OK for everyone? Other suggestions are welcome, of course!
Like for the other languages, also within Low-Saxon new threads are possible.

Kiek mol wedder in!
Frank

[Nukalurk]

frank74, do you also know an online dictionary which is more elaborated?

This http://www.ins-bremen.de/PlattLex/index.htm (based on German) one is nice for understanding the radio news but I haven't found a learner's online dictionary, yet.

Or do you even know a good dictionary book, preferable in German?


Edit: Ah, I've found http://www.deutsch-plattdeutsch.de/.

Just a short question: What is the number "0" in Plattdüütsch? Is it just "null"?


P. S.: Happy belated birthday!

[frank74]

frank74, do you also know an online dictionary which is more elaborated?

This http://www.ins-bremen.de/PlattLex/index.htm (based on German) one is nice for understanding the radio news but I haven't found a learner's online dictionary, yet.

Or do you even know a good dictionary book, preferable in German?


Edit: Ah, I've found http://www.deutsch-plattdeutsch.de/.

Moin Amikeco!
Unfortunately, your link is the best online dictionary I saw so far.
As a "real" book I have the dictionary "Kleines Plattdeutsches Wörterbuch" by Johannes Sass, Karl Wachholtz Verlag ISBN 3 529 04952 2 (this is the 16th edition from 1992, though I bought it later). I don't know whether it's still available. The disadvantage of this book is that it only goes one way, i.e. from Low Saxon to German and not the other way around. There may be better dictionaries, but I haven't laid my hands on those so far.

This is a good starting point to revive this thread a bit again, e.g. by sharing experiences, or providing some grammar information that is only available in German. Currently I won't be able to provide an entire course, as I haven't enough time for really regular exercises and the like, and I'm not a full native myself. I will see what I can do in the next weeks!

Just a short question: What is the number "0" in Plattdüütsch? Is it just "null"?

I believe it's just 'null', at least that sounds familiar, is something I found on websites and is used in the Low Saxon version of Asterix & Obelix: Ceasar's secret agent is called "Nullnullnix", i.e. zerozeronothing. [Asterix snackt platt: De Törn för nix (The tour for nothing), orig. L'Odyssée d'Astérix, eng. Asterix and the Black Gold.]

P. S.: Happy belated birthday!

Schööndank! Hier hest du ook noch een laatstet Stück Budderkoken!

[Hoogstwaarschijnlijk]

Funny, I didn't know it was actually a language, I thought it were just dialects. My family of my mothers side (okay, my grandmother and her sister) speaks Achterhoeks, my mother also a bit, so I think I can understand a lot of things well:)

[Nukalurk]

Vogelvrij, I can also understand much but can't use it.

Schööndank! Hier hest du ook noch een laatstet Stück Budderkoken!

Schööndank för de Koken!

[Sander]

Funny, I didn't know it was actually a language, I thought it were just dialects. My family of my mothers side (okay, my grandmother and her sister) speaks Achterhoeks, my mother also a bit, so I think I can understand a lot of things well:)

It's more of a 'dead language' with living dialects (which mixed with for example Dutch and German)

[Hoogstwaarschijnlijk]

Vogelvrij, I can also understand much but can't use it.

Using a language is a lot more difficult then understanding one

@Sander: Okay

[Priscian]

Can anyone check to see if this is correct. Yes, I realize it is only synoptic treatment of a complecated topic, but is an attempt to give an outline of Low Saxon.

Synopsis of Low Saxon Grammar

Low Saxon (Low German) is a Germanic language spoken primarily in northern Germany, eastern Netherlands, and by a large Diaspora (cf. Mennonites) in such places as Belize, Denmark, Mexico, Paraguay, Poland, Russia, Ukraine, and the United States. There is no ‘standard’ for Low German, but it shows regional variation in regards to phonology and morphology. The orthography varies considerably, but generally the norm has been to approximate German spelling conventions.

Article: In Low Saxon there are two articles, definite and indefinite. The definite article shows gender, case, and number. i.e. masculine (de), feminine (de), or neuter (dat); the plural article (de) is identical for all genders and cases. The cases of the article are: nominative, possessive, and oblique. The indefinite article has the same basic form in for all genders and cases (n).

Noun: A noun identifies a person (Rudolf), thing (Book), place (Eerd), and concept (Glieknis). Nouns can show gender, masculine (de Mann), feminine (de Döör), and neuter (dat Huus). Plural in Low Saxon is formed by diverse ways, e.g. endings, vowels change, or no change at all (as a result the plural along with the grammatical gender needs to be memorized). Nouns, as in German, are capitalized, e.g. dat Riek, de Welt, dat Solt, etc.

Adjective: The adjectives give information about a noun, e.g. "Dat Huus is lüüt(et)." The adjectives agree with nouns in gender, number, and case, but frequently it is invariable. The adjective can also show degree of comparison (positive) stark, (comparative) starker and (superlative) starkest. The numerals are adjectives, een, twee, dree, veer, etc. (cardinals); erste. tweede. törde, veerde, fiefde, etc. (ordinals).

Adverb: The adverbs give information about a verb or an adjective, e.g. “Ik harr mien Vadder güstern seen.” “Dat Land is nicht groot.”Adverbs derived from adjectives use the base form (i.e. no inflectional endings).

Pronoun: The pronouns often take the place of a noun, e.g. ”Se list n’ englische Book.” instead of ”Anna list n’ englische Book.” The pronouns are declined into cases (nominative, possessive, and oblique) The pronouns in Low Saxon are: ik, mien, mi, (1st person. singular); wi us, us, (1st person plural); du, dien, di, (2nd person singular); ji, jun, ju, (2nd person plural); hi / se, sien / ehr, em / ehr, (3rd person singular, masculine and feminine); se, jemehr, jem, (3rd person plural). The reflexive pronoun for 3rd is sick (singular and plural).

Verb: The action word of the sentence is the verb, e.g. "He sä dat wi schülen dat Book lesen." Low Saxon verbs are either strong (irregular) or weak (regular). The verb can show mood (indicative, imperative, and infinitive), voice (active and passive), tense (time), person (1st, 2nd, and 3rd). The principal parts of a Low Saxon weak verb are infinitive(hüüren), present (hüür + endings), and past participle (hüürt); strong verbs have vowel change in the stem, e.g., dregen (infinitive); drigg + ending (present); droog (preterite); and dragen (past participle). The participle has root + t in regular verbs and a vowel change in stem of irregular verbs. Verbs can either be transitive, which take an object ("De Vadder snackt mit den Mann.") or intransitive, which do not take a direct object ("He schlöpt freutlich.").

Preposition: The prepositions show information about time, place, and directions, e.g. (time) um veer Uhr; (place) op n Barg; (direction) to den Schooster.

Conjunction: A conjunction joins together sentences or part of a sentence, e.g. “Peter un Hans hebben den Pizza eten, as Jim hett dat Water drunken.”

Interjection: An emotional outcry, e.g. “Oh ja, use Katt is ool!”

[nettchelobek1]

Seeing some of the posts in Plaatdüütsch, I can summarize that is (at least wroten) a mixture between German and Dutch, but, can anyone write a rough pronunciation of it?

[Pål]

Hello all. This looks like a nice forum indeed! I hope to learn a lot here, being amongst other language-freaks (I thought I was the only one, *sniff*).

Coming from the Liemers, a part of the Netherlands (near the German border), I'm very interested in this forum about Lower Saxon. Until recently I thought Liemers' was a form of Lower Saxon too, but I discovered it was not. Though it is called 'platt' too, it's not a part of Lower Saxon but considered a form of Frankisch (how is it called in English?).

That's why I wanted to reply to this post:

In wikipedia there is map depicting the approximate language area:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nieders%C3 ... he_Sprache
In the Netherlands the yellow should stretch a little further to the west, as it also includes a region called the "Veluwe".

I'm sorry, but Veluws is the same in that it isn't Saxon but Frankisch.

[frank74]

Hello Priscian,

As far as I know, most of what state below is correct. I have to add, though, that I'm not a linguist and may not judge everything. I added some remarks, but you can also have a look at the weblinks provided in the other thread within this Low Saxon part of the Unilang forum. Furthermore, most of the summary is correct for the dialects in Germany, but not necessarily for those in the Netherlands. At least all the examples you give are from some part of northern Germany.

Can anyone check to see if this is correct. Yes, I realize it is only synoptic treatment of a complecated topic, but is an attempt to give an outline of Low Saxon.

Synopsis of Low Saxon Grammar

Low Saxon (Low German) is a Germanic language spoken primarily in northern Germany, eastern Netherlands, and by a large Diaspora (cf. Mennonites) in such places as Belize, Denmark, Mexico, Paraguay, Poland, Russia, Ukraine, and the United States. There is no ‘standard’ for Low German, but it shows regional variation in regards to phonology and morphology. The orthography varies considerably, but generally the norm has been to approximate German spelling conventions.

Indeed most speakers live in northern Germany and the eastern Netherlands. As a consequence, spelling of most of the dialects is either based on German or on Dutch.

Article: In Low Saxon there are two articles, definite and indefinite. The definite article shows gender, case, and number. i.e. masculine (de), feminine (de), or neuter (dat); the plural article (de) is identical for all genders and cases. The cases of the article are: nominative, possessive, and oblique. The indefinite article has the same basic form in for all genders and cases (n).

Noun: A noun identifies a person (Rudolf), thing (Book), place (Eerd), and concept (Glieknis). Nouns can show gender, masculine (de Mann), feminine (de Döör), and neuter (dat Huus). Plural in Low Saxon is formed by diverse ways, e.g. endings, vowels change, or no change at all (as a result the plural along with the grammatical gender needs to be memorized). Nouns, as in German, are capitalized, e.g. dat Riek, de Welt, dat Solt, etc.

The last sentence about spelling is true for Germany indeed, but in the Netherlands, following the Dutch spelling, nouns are not capitalised.

Adjective: The adjectives give information about a noun, e.g. "Dat Huus is lüüt(et)." The adjectives agree with nouns in gender, number, and case, but frequently it is invariable. The adjective can also show degree of comparison (positive) stark, (comparative) starker and (superlative) starkest. The numerals are adjectives, een, twee, dree, veer, etc. (cardinals); erste. tweede. törde, veerde, fiefde, etc. (ordinals).

Adverb: The adverbs give information about a verb or an adjective, e.g. “Ik harr mien Vadder güstern seen.” “Dat Land is nicht groot.”Adverbs derived from adjectives use the base form (i.e. no inflectional endings).

Alternative ways of putting the example sentences (in Germany): "Güstern harr ik min Vadder seihn", Dat Land is nich groot".

Pronoun: The pronouns often take the place of a noun, e.g. ”Se list n’ englische Book.” instead of ”Anna list n’ englische Book.” The pronouns are declined into cases (nominative, possessive, and oblique) The pronouns in Low Saxon are: ik, mien, mi, (1st person. singular); wi us, us, (1st person plural); du, dien, di, (2nd person singular); ji, jun, ju, (2nd person plural); hi / se, sien / ehr, em / ehr, (3rd person singular, masculine and feminine); se, jemehr, jem, (3rd person plural). The reflexive pronoun for 3rd is sick (singular and plural).

Verb: The action word of the sentence is the verb, e.g. "He sä dat wi schülen dat Book lesen." Low Saxon verbs are either strong (irregular) or weak (regular). The verb can show mood (indicative, imperative, and infinitive), voice (active and passive), tense (time), person (1st, 2nd, and 3rd). The principal parts of a Low Saxon weak verb are infinitive(hüüren), present (hüür + endings), and past participle (hüürt); strong verbs have vowel change in the stem, e.g., dregen (infinitive); drigg + ending (present); droog (preterite); and dragen (past participle). The participle has root + t in regular verbs and a vowel change in stem of irregular verbs. Verbs can either be transitive, which take an object ("De Vadder snackt mit den Mann.") or intransitive, which do not take a direct object ("He schlöpt freutlich.").

Alternative ways of putting the example sentences: "He seggt dat wi dat Book lesen schalln".

Preposition: The prepositions show information about time, place, and directions, e.g. (time) um veer Uhr; (place) op n Barg; (direction) to den Schooster.

Conjunction: A conjunction joins together sentences or part of a sentence, e.g. “Peter un Hans hebben den Pizza eten, as Jim hett dat Water drunken.”

Interjection: An emotional outcry, e.g. “Oh ja, use Katt is ool!”

[frank74]

Funny, I didn't know it was actually a language, I thought it were just dialects. My family of my mothers side (okay, my grandmother and her sister) speaks Achterhoeks, my mother also a bit, so I think I can understand a lot of things well:)

It's more of a 'dead language' with living dialects (which mixed with for example Dutch and German)

Nice way of putting this. It's gloomy in a way, but I think it has a big deal of truth in it. The vividness differs frome region to region (and therefore dialect). In the village of my father it's still quite alive, for example. But maybe not in future, as people from my generation hardly use it or know it.