Ugric languages

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Levo
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Ugric languages

Postby Levo » 2008-01-19, 13:23

In case if anyone was interested.

There exist sentences which are recognizable by Hungarians in Khanty and Mansi.

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Postby deardron » 2008-01-28, 15:21

That must be true, but where's the examples? ;)

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Postby Levo » 2008-01-30, 16:51

deardron wrote:That must be true, but where's the examples? ;)


Your claim is right:

hanti (osztják):

Pegte lau lasinen menl tou szilna.
Fekete ló lassan megy a tó szélén.

manysi (vogul):

Hurem-szát-husz hulach-szem empem viten eli. Háromszázhúsz hollószemű ebem vízen él.

note: Hungarian spelling is used for both languages (second-one is always the Hungarian)

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Postby AlienDiscoDuck » 2008-02-28, 8:15

I came across a sample of text (numbers 1 to 5) in a linguistics exercise I had to do:
/aka/, /kitiγ/, /xu:rəm/, /ɲila/, /at/ (egy, kettő, három, négy, öt)
It turns out it was Mansi, but I knew right away that, based on my minimal knowledge of Hungarian, it was either that or Khanty.
It would be really interesting to hear either one spoken. I'm wondering just how similar it sounds to Hungarian. I'm thinking it's not very similar, given the influences each one has been subjected to (Hungarian being spoken in Central Europe, the other two in Siberia). Perhaps they've retained many sounds that may have been lost in Hungarian, or is it the opposite? I definitely wouldn't know for sure, as I not only know next to nothing about the history of Ugric languages, but I've only recently learned about the different causes and types of language change.
However, I'm still curious...
Im in ur lexiconz, verbin ur nounz.

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Postby Mulder-21 » 2008-02-28, 17:52

Yes, I am curious about these languages too! :)
Gløgt er gestsins eyga. (Føroyskt orðafelli)
Wise is the stranger's eye. (Faroese saying)
L'occhio dell'ospite è acuto. (Proverbio faroico)
Hosťovo oko je múdre. (Faerské uslovie)

Fluent: Faroese, Danish, English, German
Almost fluent: Norwegian, Swedish
Basic: Slovak (studying), Spanish
Have studied: Hebrew, Russian
Interests: Ukrainian, Romanian, Italian, Albanian, Armenian, Ossetic, Hungarian, Estonian, Baltic languages

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Levo
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Postby Levo » 2008-02-28, 21:51

Actually, I could recognize 2, 3 and 4 :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmjYHN77 ... re=related

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Postby AlienDiscoDuck » 2008-02-29, 3:43

That sounded really interesting!
I could also kinda recognize the numbers (definitely 2 and 3, but the 1 almost sounded like 'ek', which is Hindi). However, as for the song afterwards, I don't think I could have recognized the language myself.
Hmmm maybe if I could actually speak Hungarian, I might be able to decipher it...:bummer:
Im in ur lexiconz, verbin ur nounz.

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Postby Levo » 2008-03-02, 10:58

AlienDiscoDuck wrote:That sounded really interesting!
I could also kinda recognize the numbers (definitely 2 and 3, but the 1 almost sounded like 'ek', which is Hindi). However, as for the song afterwards, I don't think I could have recognized the language myself.
Hmmm maybe if I could actually speak Hungarian, I might be able to decipher it...:bummer:

And you know what? I've just seen a documentary about Khanty-Mansi people and about Khanty-Mansiysk and there Hungarian is a compulsorily taught subject at the university and in some schools. I heard again a Mansi counting and 6 was definitely reocnizable too.

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Postby Levo » 2008-03-02, 10:59

AlienDiscoDuck wrote:That sounded really interesting!
I could also kinda recognize the numbers (definitely 2 and 3, but the 1 almost sounded like 'ek', which is Hindi). However, as for the song afterwards, I don't think I could have recognized the language myself.
Hmmm maybe if I could actually speak Hungarian, I might be able to decipher it...:bummer:

And you know what? I've just seen a documentary about Khanty-Mansi people and about Khanty-Mansiysk and there Hungarian is a compulsorily taught subject at the university and in some schools. I heard again a Mansi counting and 6 was definitely recognizable too.

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Ugric languages

Postby 0stsee » 2008-03-02, 19:09

Do you think the Ugric languages (besides Hungarian, of course) are going to survive at all?

Are they still being passed on to younger generations who use them actively?
Ini tandatanganku.

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Re: Ugric languages

Postby Levo » 2008-03-03, 11:05

0stsee wrote:Do you think the Ugric languages (besides Hungarian, of course) are going to survive at all?

Are they still being passed on to younger generations who use them actively?


It doubt it. It seems we're gonna left behind without any real language-relatives. :cry:

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Postby Loiks » 2008-03-03, 18:23

The problem is that this Khanty-Mansi region is very rich in oil and gas and very much Russian speaking immigrants have been brought in since oil was found there. The perspectives of indigenous nations in Russia to survive are extremely bad if I express myself mildly.

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Re: Ugric languages

Postby 0stsee » 2008-03-03, 19:09

OK.

Levo wrote:
0stsee wrote:Do you think the Ugric languages (besides Hungarian, of course) are going to survive at all?

Are they still being passed on to younger generations who use them actively?


I doubt it. It seems we're gonna left behind without any real language-relatives. :cry:

Well, at least you still have Estonian and Finnish. :wink:
Ini tandatanganku.

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Postby AlienDiscoDuck » 2008-03-04, 3:44

The sad fate of many native languages.
But there are efforts being made to preserve these languages, I'm sure. There's definitely a growing awareness of these languages and the fact that they're dying out. I'm not sure if it's enough though.
I'm interested to know if the Russian government's policy towards these regions has anything to do with the status of these languages, whether it has helped in their preservation, or has contributed to the reduced number of speakers. I see that the influx of Russian-speaking workers into the region may have had an effect. Do either Khanty or Mansi contain many Russian loanwords, by any chance?
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Re: Ugric languages

Postby Levo » 2008-03-04, 14:12

0stsee wrote:OK.

Levo wrote:
0stsee wrote:Do you think the Ugric languages (besides Hungarian, of course) are going to survive at all?

Are they still being passed on to younger generations who use them actively?


I doubt it. It seems we're gonna left behind without any real language-relatives. :cry:

Well, at least you still have Estonian and Finnish. :wink:

Well, Finnish-Hungarian relations are like Irish Gael-Hindi - same language-family, but the furthernmost branches. Same with Estonian.

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Postby zhiguli » 2008-03-05, 9:21

i'm curious about these languages too but i can't seem to find anything about them, not even in russian...what are your sources?

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Postby Loiks » 2008-03-05, 17:59

I have read some books on Finno-Ugric languages where they have been included (in Estonian) and studied a bit at the university. The historical phonetics of FU languages is studied by comparing words of different languages. I remember Ob-Ugric languages had sounds that were very difficult to pronounce (for us Estonians).

I'm sure the sources can be found in university libraries in Hungary, Finland, Estonia and Russia.

Just out of curiousity I googled what is there in internet in Estonian:

Khanty (search: handid):

http://haldjas.folklore.ee/~anzori/HANT1A.HTM

http://www.erm.ee/?lang=est&node=486&parent=83 (with links below)

http://www.suri.ee/

Mansi (search: mansid):

http://www.folklore.ee/~aado/rahvad/mansi.htm

http://www.mari.ee/vs/6/hmar.htm

http://www.suri.ee/ohuur/mansi.html

http://www.erm.ee/?node=952

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Postby Levo » 2008-03-06, 1:27

Yes, on the net there are several resources in Hungarian and in the university's library I could borrow Khanty, Mansi and several other Finno-Ugrian language-books as well if I wanted. They are to the right from Estonian study-books on the third floor :D Some in Russian, some in Finnish, German, Estonian and also English.

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Postby zhiguli » 2008-03-07, 14:15

Levo wrote:Yes, on the net there are several resources in Hungarian


how about some links?
my knowledge of estonian is next to nil but hungarian is something i actually a have a chance of understanding.

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Postby krix » 2008-03-24, 2:34

Another Ugric language that is dying is Csángó. One subgroup has already completed the shift to Romanian, while the remaining one is almost there. Hungarians have described it to me as a "weird dialect". It is quite apart from the dialects in Hungary proper, it takes some time for them to get into...
Because of the political sensitivity of the issue, some people call it "Northern Moldavian" (I hope I got it right, and it wasn't Southern or Western ;) )...


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