Finnic

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Loiks
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Finnic

Postby Loiks » 2007-09-30, 15:15

I thought maybe someone would be interested in minor Finnic languages, i.e others than Finnish and Estonian?

Ingrian, Karelian, Ludic, Veps, Votic, Võro and Livonian. Also dialects.

From those languages Votic and Livonian are probably extinct already, other are on the edge of it. Võro on the other hand lives in some kind of national awakening because it has been supported by Estonians and Finns as also Livonian, but in this case there is no population basis any more for revival :(.

So, if anyone has any good materials about those languages, maybe let's collect them here.

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Postby E}{pugnator » 2007-09-30, 16:11

What about Komi? I thought it was Finnic.

I remember seeing a textbook for a Finnic language, in Russian, somewhere. Don't remember which language it was.
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Postby Loiks » 2007-09-30, 17:32

It is not Finnic, it's Permic (includes Komi, Komi Permyak and Udmurt :).

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Postby Mulder-21 » 2007-11-10, 0:08

I'm interesting in more or less all Uralic languages, so I'll be following this thread if it continues :)
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Postby Loiks » 2008-01-12, 22:18

SPECIAL CHARACTERISTICS OF SEPARATE FINNIC LANGUAGES

Finnish

In the first syllable oo, ee, öö > uo, ie, yö, but other long vowels have remained unchanged (suo 'marsh', tie 'way', 'night', maa 'land', pää 'head'). The vowels of syllables further than the first have been preserved well, no syncope or apocope (rauta 'iron', ostamaan 'to buy'). As intervocal h has disappeared further than second syllable there are many long vowels and diphtongs in those syllables (lampaat 'sheep nom. pl.', lampaille 'sheep all. pl.'). There is gradation of stops unless they are not next to voiceless consonant (vako 'furrow', gen. vaon, but uskoa 'to believe', uskon 'I believe'). There is no palatalization of consonants. There is comitative with -ne ending.

Karelian

Long vowels aa, ää, ee, oo, öö have become diphtongs both in first and contractional following syllables (mua 'land', oštua 'to buy inf.') Intervocal h, also word ending h has been preserved (lambahat 'sheep nom. pl.', veneh 'boat'). The palatalization of consonants is widely spread. š is usually used instead of s (šanon 'I say'). Also compounds of voiceless consonants undergoes gradation (uškuo 'to believe', uššon 'I believe', matka 'trip', gen. matan). Allative and adessive have become formally one (met´š´ällä 'forest all. sg. and adess. sg.). There is a plural marker -loi, -löi (suoloissa 'in the marshes'). Instead of 3. person plural the impersonal is used (hüö šanotah 'they say').

Veps

All long vowels have become short (ma 'land', p´ä 'head', ton 'I bring'; ii and uu have been preserved in Onega dialect). Lots of syncope and apocope (roud 'iron', ostmaha 'to buy'). No consistent vowel harmony. Consonants have been preserved well (lidnha 'town ill.' - compare Finnish linnaan but geminate stops have shortened (akad 'old women'). No gradation of consonants (vago 'furrow' gen. vagon). Palatalization of consonants is widely spread. Elative and ablative have joined inessive and adessive respectively and new cases have appeared from postpositions (metsaspäi 'from the forest').

Ingrian

All long vowels have been preserved (maa, pää, toon). There is almost no palatalization of consonants. Difference between nouns with -k and -h ending has been preserved (päreg ~ päre 'splinter', pl. pärriid, veneh ~ vene 'boat', pl. venneehed ~ venneed). Gradation of consonants on same occasions as in Karelian (uskoa : uson, matka : madan). Lots of gemination of consonants (männöö 'he/she goes', mattaala 'low'). At the 3. person plural ending there is no v-element (männööd 'they go').

Votic

All long vowels have been preserved. The õ sound is very usual, even in positions where there is o in Estonian (õlla 'to be', õma 'own'). Before front vowels k becomes (tšäsi 'hand'). The word initial h is very rare, in the following syllables it has disappeared totally. Instead of ks and ps there is hs (õhsa 'branch', lahsi 'child'), instead of st there is ss, in weak grade s (mussa 'black' pl. musat). In addition to stops also sibilants undergo gradation (isä 'father', gen. izää). There is a comitative with -kaa ending.

Estonian

Long vowels have been preserved in the first syllable. After the long first syllable vowel of open syllable has disappeared (raud, ostma - compare Finnish rauta, ostamaan). No ä, ö, ü in following syllables, so there is also no vowel harmony. No long vowels in following syllables. h has disappeared further than the beginning of second syllable, usually the word initial h is not pronounced. In addition to the quantity gradation there is also quality gradation, which comprises all long vowels, dophtongs, double consonants and compound consonants (saada 'send imp. sg.' : 'saada* 'to get', 'laine 'wave gen. sg.' : laine 'wave nom. sg.', võta 'take imp. sg.' : võtta 'to take', konna 'frog gen. sg. : 'konna 'frog part. sg.', külma 'cold gen. sg. : 'külma 'cold part.sg.).There is terminative with -ni ending and comitative with -ga ending.

* ' is used here to show overlong syllable

Livonian*

Long ee and oo have changed to ie and uo; short e and o can have been turned to a diphtong which first component is extra short (miez 'man', sjepaa 'blacksmith'). õ exists but there is no change o > õ (võõlga 'debt' but lopuub 'it ends'). No vowel harmony. Apocopes also after short syllable (sug 'gender'). No gradation but there is some kind of quantity changing (mustaa 'black', part. mustõ). There is a broken intonation in some words. Dative with -n ending. Case with -ks ending works both as translative and comitative. 1. person sg. ending is -b like in 3. person.

* I use Finnish/Estonian spelling here.

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Postby Æxylis » 2008-02-11, 8:49

this seems like an interesting topic... now that you have some comparisons of the language distinctions, do you have some sentence examples to show these differences? :D

I don't know why, but the Finnic languages always seemed more interesting to me than the Ugric languages, so this would be an interesting thread to follow... aren't most of these languages used around the area of finland, estonia, 'lappland' and northwestern russia?
because I thought I read somewhere that there were also some in other parts of russia as well... or maybe those were in another language family :?
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Postby Levo » 2008-02-11, 14:08

Jaakuuta wrote:this seems like an interesting topic... now that you have some comparisons of the language distinctions, do you have some sentence examples to show these differences? :D

I don't know why, but the Finnic languages always seemed more interesting to me than the Ugric languages, so this would be an interesting thread to follow... aren't most of these languages used around the area of finland, estonia, 'lappland' and northwestern russia?
because I thought I read somewhere that there were also some in other parts of russia as well... or maybe those were in another language family :?

Those in Asia are Samoyedic languages (mostly in the North-Western Siberia) and there are another two languages South from the Samoyedic ones which are Ugric languages, and there are several ones West from the Ural, in Europe which are Permic languages. Permic languages belong to Finnic languages as well.
Finnic and Ugric and Samoyedic languages together make the Uralic language family.
But if you want to know, when I read the Pater Noster in another Ugric language (mine is one as well), I only understood some words of it and only because I had already learnt some Finnish before :). So those Ugric languages are rather similar to Finnic ones than to Hungarian.

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Postby Loiks » 2008-02-12, 17:28

The most precise classification of Uralic languages in Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uralic_languages

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Postby Preno » 2008-02-12, 18:44

That was a very interesting post about the characteristics of Finnic languages, Loiks. Can I ask where you get all that information from?
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Postby Loiks » 2008-02-12, 19:27

From a book I have:

"Sissejuhatus läänemeresoome keeltesse" ('Introduction to Baltic-Finnic languages') by Arvo Laanest, Institute of Language and Literature of the Academy of Sciences of Estonian SSR, Tallinn, 1975. :D

I can quote some other parts of the book when I have more time and I'm bored again.

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Postby Steisi » 2008-04-02, 20:00

Interesting! What about Mari? I know a Mari speaker, and, while she doesn't seem the type to come online, I can maybe grill her for knowledge :D She might have resources, too.

Oh, and one of my teachers speaks Veps. :waytogo:
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Postby Loiks » 2008-04-03, 17:03

Well Mari is technically Volgaic or Volga-Finnic (Volgalainen kieli).

Veps is interesting, it doesn't have long vowels and gradation at all.

And it's not extinct yet, although very russianized. Last news I heard about them was that they insist Vladimir Putin to be their representative at the congress of F-U nations. Or were those Karelians?


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Re: Finnic

Postby hashi » 2012-03-03, 4:56

I am interested in both Meadow Mari and Võro, it's just a shame there's not too much in English :(

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Re: Finnic

Postby Massimiliano B » 2012-03-13, 22:08

Here you can find the first half of a good Meadow Mari grammar (in English). There are also audio files.




EDIT: Mari is not Finnic! At the time I wrote this post I already knew that, but I had a lapse.
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Re: Finnic

Postby Massimiliano B » 2012-04-06, 14:01

Here you can find a little book in English (Võro-seto language, Kalle Eller. Võru, 1999). It is very short (only 25 page).

Here is a short description of the language, in English.

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Re: Finnic

Postby Lauren » 2013-02-05, 8:24

I find Mari pretty cool, and there's a lot more to learn it with than Khanty. Despite my love for Hungarian, I might like Mari more than Khanty and Mansi. :oops:

I like this song someone posted awhile ago here a lot!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KPBKsuwtDpo

I love the abundance of "sh". :D
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Re: Finnic

Postby h34 » 2016-02-06, 3:35



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Re: Finnic

Postby Naava » 2018-03-04, 13:41

Heli Keinonen has recorded some songs in Karelian in the '60s. Here's one of her songs, which I like the best; she starts singing at 0:23.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lcjDT6INKbA

Lyrics:
► Show Spoiler

(I didn't write these myself and I don't speak any Karelian, so if you spot mistakes or typos, feel free to correct them.)

What I can understand, the song is about a girl and a boy at a well. The boy goes to a garden to let his horse drink from a well. There he meets a girl and asks her to give him a bucket. The girl doesn't want to, not even when he offers a ring to her. I guess the last verse describes what the boy looks like (not strong/tall?, has black hair and a braid with a light blue ribbon) and the verse before that probably explains what he has done yesterday to the girl, but I can't say more because there's too many words I can't understand. :P If I had to make a wild guess, I'd say he had flirted with another girl and that's why this girl at the well is angry, but I might be wrong.

If someone could give a more accurate translation, I'd be grateful! :)


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