Romani

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Re: Romani

Postby vijayjohn » 2019-03-04, 5:55

I found some songs for which Ronald Lee's book has the lyrics! I just discovered all of these songs that way. :D It's by Kalyi Jag (from Hungary, I guess?) and is called "La Romnjasa" (see p. 143-144 in Learn Romani for the lyrics and a translation):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTvArQg-as0
This is a slightly different version of "A twenty-dollar gold piece" (p. 210-211), a Kalderash Romani song apparently from the US that's in both Romani and English:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDm4naQI62A
Lyrics:

A twenty-dollar gold piece (6)
And made of gold (2)
Oh, there is a woman, (2)
This lovely woman. (2)
Oh, there is a woman, (2)
The woman I love,
The woman he love.
Aj si jekhi šoge :!: (2) (English translation ->) And there's a girl/woman
Kaj me voliv. (2) Who I love
Aj si jekhi šoge (2)
Kaj me voliv,
Kaj vo-oliv.
Aj lako dad,
(2) And her father
O barvalo, (2) The rich guy
Aj laki dej (2) And her mother
Či mangol te del. (2) Doesn't want to give (her away).
Aj, biš-tiljàra sùmnakaj (6) Oh, a twenty-dollar gold piece
Sa àndo sùmnakaj (2) All in gold
Aj si jekhi šoge (2)
Kaj me voliv,
Kaj vo-oliv.

Aj si jekhi šoge (2)
Kaj me voliv,
Kaj vo-oliv.

A twenty-dollar gold piece (6)
And made of gold (2)
Aj si jekhi šoge (2)
Kaj me voliv. (2)
Aj si jekhi šoge (2)
Kaj me voliv,
Kaj vo-oliv.


This is another version with almost exactly the same lyrics but that also ends more abruptly in the middle of the song. :P (There appear to be other videos of both versions, too):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vquM8WzAbj8
This is "Duj, duj, deš-u-duj" (see p. 230-231, where it's called "O Phúro Rrôm"). The lyrics to this version are mostly the same but not in the same order as listed in the book, plus it's cini bori (little bride) instead of terni bori, and the line after lako muj si rupuno is (as Ian helpfully wrote in the version in his course packet) pùške trubul la dino! '(she's so beautiful that) she should be shot!':
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WbHOzgZx8M
This is a slightly different and shorter version by Kalyi Jag again, this time with the lyrics written out in what I guess is Slovak(?) orthography:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ci5QomA9Cz8
EDIT: I think I'll add one more song with a similar title to the previous two. Tbh this one is mostly in Slovak, but I'm really just concerned with the beginning, which is in Romani :P
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdF_y3OEMWE
My best attempt to make sense of the Romani lyrics:

Duj, duj, duj, duj, dešuduj,
Te čumidav, te čumidav parno muj!
O parno muj čumidav, te rekostar astarav
Čhaj, lake čhaj, lake astarav!
Two, two, two, two, twelve,
May I kiss, may I kiss a white mouth!
May I kiss the white mouth (and) catch her
From the side, the girl, I catch her, the girl!

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Re: Romani

Postby cHr0mChIk » 2019-03-14, 2:30

Sorry guys, I haven't been active in a while.. I've been sick for more than a week.. a really annoying flu.. :roll:
Although, I've been wanting to write in here

vijayjohn wrote:Tutti frutti te khelas!
Te khelas; te giljabas
Le Romenca te mangas!

Či džanav so te kerav.
Pàla late me merav!

Sa o Roma, daje, khelela;
Sa o Roma, daje, von pilena.

Miri Romni si šukar
Sar e lulugi daj bar (??).
Miri Romni si brunèto
'Aj si maj bari talènto.


I've seen this movie, Gadžo Dilo.. it was.. interesting :hmm:
I've seen transcriptions of this song around the internet, however, to be honest, to me it doesn't sound like it's fully matching what the singer is singing :hmm:

Especially "le Romenca te mangas"... it sounds to me like he's saying something else, which sounds like "pagjas" or "pakjas" or "bakjas" or "vakjas"... something like that... the closest sounding word would be "phagjas" - which means "to break"... I s'ppose :hmm:

Also, it's strange to me, why's it "khelela", when it's "Sa o Roma"... :hmm: why's it singular...
And also, it doesn't sound to me like he's saying "von pilena"... Also, I've never heard the verb "pilel", only "pijel"...

These lyrics are to me confusing altogether...

Also, I have a confession to make :oops: to be honest, I really dislike non-Balkan varieties of Romani. I know it's just a matter of taste and preference, but the more Romani I learnt with time, the more I was drawn to Balkan Romani.

I dislike almost everything about it. They have such strong foreign accents, for example Vlax Roma in Serbia, have clear Serbian accents (some Balkan Roma do too, depending on region, however most Balkan Roma I've encountered, have really distinguishable accents which are unique to Romani, they're unique Romani accents, and don't sound Slavic or of any other surrounding languages - and even while speaking Serbian/Macedonian they have a strong Romani accent).

Hungarian Roma (Vlax and Central dialects) have strong Hungarian accents, same goes for Romanian, Slovak, Russian, Sinte, and all other non-Balkan Roma I've ever heard. I really dislike the way these accents sound, I know it's just a personal matter of taste and preference, and I don't mean to be rude or to offend anyone, I just personally prefer Balkan dialects.

Another thing is loanwords. I know I'm kinda hypocritical for saying this, since Balkan Romani has so many Slavic and Turkic (and some Albanian) loanwords, but most of them make sense. I would even argue whether they are loanwords or not, since Roma use them consciously. These are words which aren't integrated in the language, and when Roma use them, they are aware that these words are actually Slavic words (or words of other languages) - I would argue that this is a case of Code Switching, rather than Loanwords. Sometimes they'd even say whole phrases or whole sentences in these languages.

Of course, there are some proper loanwords indeed, however they aren't as numerous. For many (maybe even the majority) of such loanwords, there is a native equivalent (which is usually more complicated and longer, and that is the reason for using the loanword in the first place), and Balkan Roma can indeed speak in such a way when the situation requires so (which I have experienced).

I do not like Vlax/Central/Northern Romani songs as well. They just don't sound... Romani... They sound so foreign to me... I don't know how to explain... The style of singing, the instruments they use, mixed with their accents and all those unnecessary European loanwords.

I know this was a bit of a rant. And I know that I sound totally biased and hypocritical, and I'm sorry about that. :para:

We all know that there is no "Standard" Romani. There were some attempts for it, though, however, we all know that there is not a "neutral" variety of Romani, because so many things are said so differently in different dialects (also, so many morphological, syntaxical differences, etc.), that, if one wants to make a "Standard", they have to make certain choices and they have to be biased towards a particular variety.

Those which attempted to create a "Standard" Romani, were mostly basing it either on Vlax Romani, or Central Romani. However, honestly, I would have chosen Balkan Romani. There already is a sort of a "Standard Balkan Romani" - which is loosely based of Arli, but prefers native vocabulary over loaned, with which the most of Balkan Roma are already familiar, and they have already encountered it.

For example, it avoids Turcisms, such as "hem", using "thaj" instead, which is something all Balkan Roma are familiar with, since there are Gurbet Roma in pretty much all areas.

Anyway, I've dragged my rant for way too long.. Sorry about that, :blush: :mrgreen: :ohwell:
وَقَالُوا لَن يَدْخُلَ الْجَنَّةَ إِلَّا مَن كَانَ هُودًا أَوْ نَصَارَىٰ ۗ تِلْكَ أَمَانِيُّهُمْ ۗ قُلْ هَاتُوا بُرْهَانَكُمْ إِن كُنتُمْ صَادِقِينَ
بَلَىٰ مَنْ أَسْلَمَ وَجْهَهُ لِلَّهِ وَهُوَ مُحْسِنٌ فَلَهُ أَجْرُهُ عِندَ رَبِّهِ وَلَا خَوْفٌ عَلَيْهِمْ وَلَا هُمْ يَحْزَنُونَ

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Re: Romani

Postby vijayjohn » 2019-03-14, 5:29

Welcome back! I'm glad to hear that you're feeling better!
cHr0mChIk wrote:I've seen this movie, Gadžo Dilo.. it was.. interesting :hmm:

:lol: You do make a good point about the pilena thing, btw.
Also, I have a confession to make :oops: to be honest, I really dislike non-Balkan varieties of Romani.

Sorry, but I don't know too many Balkan Romani songs or too much of Balkan Romani yet. :P So I hope you'll forgive me for posting in/about non-Balkan varieties, too. :)

These are some other Romani songs I know. Of course, there are the ones from Dom za vešanje, which probably all three of us are pretty familiar with now (these at least are Balkan Romani, right?). The first (in order of appearance in the above-mentioned movie :P) is "Ederlezi":
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=475Htbm20Jo&t=94s
which is almost the same as this but not quite (and also shorter, of course). In particular, what's the first line? Something like o da, daje?

And then there's "Ederlezi Avela":
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHmJOVzh8aI
I'm not sure I understand the lyrics to this one correctly, especially the second stanza. Can y'all help me out with it? :P

Pravdiloda (is this really one word or two?), daje bre
Jekh kalo sabata.
Alo mange liloro
Me k'i vòjska te džav.

Uke kotar, daje bre,
Jekh kalo pampùri.
Amanèti, daje,
T'e mišta menàja.

Ederlèzi avela.
Me khere na sijom.
Ala loko našti ljav
M'e dajatar m'e dade'.

Ma rov, daje gudlije!
Pale k' avav mange.
Ederlèzi ka avel.
M'e da, khere k' avav.
It came, mother,
One black Saturday.
A letter came for me
To go into the army.

A steam engine
Left :?: from there, mother.
Mother, here are
Your great necklaces. :?: :?:

Ederlezi (St. George's Day) comes.
I'm not at home,
But I can't take him, :?:
My father, from my mother. :?:

Don't cry, sweet mother!
I'll come back.
Ederlezi will come.
My mother, I'll be home.


I also just found this for "Čhaje Šukarije," and now the lyrics make a lot more sense to me than I could possibly have made of them otherwise. I still don't recognize a couple of words, in particular irin for 'turn!'. Also, doesn't pekhljan mean 'you cooked' rather than 'you burned'? Or am I completely wrong?

And of course here's a clip of that song just for fun :P Because why not:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4oK3NQvS08Y
And "Hajre ma te dikh e daje," which I've definitely heard but know less than any of these other songs:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-KOIENOr44
If these are the lyrics and translation, there's a lot I don't recognize in this song then. In particular, I would have thought the title meant something like 'oh, don't see, mother'. I guess hari means 'too little' and brazde means 'furrow'?

...Okay, back to non-Balkan stuff! This is "Muro Šavo," one of my favorite (Lovari?) songs from Hungary:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0tICfoIzSo0

Muro ilo alosarel
Kana, Devla, dùma del.
Le vastenca sikavel.
Šukar san Tu, muro šavo;
Tu san muro kutjaripo. :?:
Čumidav tj'o iloro.

Kana pe leste dikhav,
Gili leske me phenav.
Oj, si šavo! Te merav!
Vorbil mange; khelel mange.
Sim te merav pàla leste!
Haj Devlale, žutin le'!

Kade kiki, kade malav,
Sar me Tuke sikavav?
Sar me Tuke sikavav?
Dikh čak tata, :?: sar khelav!
Le čangasa malavav.
Tuke vòja me kerav.
My heart becomes happy,
God, when he speaks.
He shows :?: with his hands.
You are beautiful, my son;
You are my darling. :?:
I kiss your little heart.

When I look at him,
I sing him a song.
Oh, it's a boy! May I die!
He speaks to me; he dances for me.
I have to die for him!
Oh Gods, help him!

How many ____, how many _____
How do I teach you?
How do I teach you?
Just look at daddy, :?: how I dance!
I strike :?: with my leg.
I live for you.

This is another song in Lovari ( means 'horse' in Hungarian, hence all the horses in the video, I guess :P) I think I might understand silghtly better and once posted with a translation. It's a love song that's simply called "Me Tut Kamav." Apparently, the song style was influenced by Bollywood. I'm not sure what country this is from; I found the lyrics written in some kind of Russian-inspired Cyrillic IIRC:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NiPPWqL45hc

Phen mange te žanav,
Phen mange t' atjarav
Ke vi Tu man kames.
Ašun, šej, so kamav!
Muro jilo Tuke dav
Ke vi me Tut kamav.
And'e sune dikhav Tu,
And'o jilo igrav Tu
Ke vi me Tut kamav.
Ašun me so kamav!
Muro tràjo Tuke dav
Ke vi Tu man kames.
Me phenav sar Tut kamav:
Bi tjiro našti kamav
Ke vi me Tut kamav;
Zorales Tut kamav.
Mangav Tu atjar ma;
Mangav Tu žutjar ma
Ke me sa jekh kamav
Tuke me te phenav.
So kames te phenes?
Phen me te ašunav!
Muro jilo dukhal.
Mangav Tu atjar man.
Atjarav so kames.
Šaj aves; mangàves.
O tràjo amaro
Khetanes si šinado.
Tell me so I know,
Tell me so I understand
That you love me, too.
Listen, young lady, to what I want!
I'm giving you my heart
Because I love you, too.
I see you in my dream,
I play :?: you in my heart
Because I love you, too.
Listen to what I want!
I'm giving you my life
Because you love me, too.
I'm telling you how I love you:
I can't love without you
Because I love you, too;
I love you dearly.
I want you (to) understand me;
I want you (to) help :?:" me
Because I suddenly :?: want
To tell you.
What do you want to say?
Tell me so I hear!
My heart is hurting.
I want you (to) understand me.
I understand what you want.
You can come; I've been wanting you to. :?:
Our lives
Are destined to be together.

This is another song in some variety of Romani I can't even identify, maybe Northern Carpathian Romani or Romungro Romani or something. It has the same title as the previous song. I can barely make head or tail of the lyrics to this song:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hb8Oa3cUWIQ
And finally, a song in Polish Romani performed for non-Romani audiences by two sisters named Zosia and Czesia Reifer called "Naštik te bist'rav Tut" (I can't forget you):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L27TGpdrAmQ
I'm so tempted to try to make sense of this one even though I have no idea what it's saying. :silly: I hear something like:

Naštik te bist'rav Tut
_______________ Tu
Kaj me te harakhav Tu
Ta baxt(?) me perše(?) Tu?
Sar šaj bist'res mange,
M'rago radiripe(?),
Kerel khamna ________ baxt ______
Kethane'.
Me dikha'
Ke kames
Te bistres
So nakherden.
Na isi sar Tu kame'
Anda č' ilo, mištipe
Ke Tu san (Kesusa???).
:?: :?:

Something about 'I can't forget you' (duh!), 'where I find you', 'how can you forget me, my dear ____', 'together', something about being pregnant, and 'I see that you'd like to forget what happened, but it is not as you wish in your heart'? :ohwell:
Last edited by vijayjohn on 2019-03-15, 3:55, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Romani

Postby cHr0mChIk » 2019-03-14, 15:40

vijayjohn wrote:Welcome back! I'm glad to hear that you're feeling better!


Shukriya, yaar! :lol:

vijayjohn wrote:Sorry, but I don't know too many Balkan Romani songs or too much of Balkan Romani yet. :P So I hope you'll forgive me for posting in/about non-Balkan varieties, too. :)


I don't mind you posting non-Balkan stuff, who am I to dictate what's gonna be posted or not :lol:
We should post stuff of as many varieties as possible. I like to see the lyrics of these songs and translate them, even though I wouldn't listen to them.

vijayjohn wrote:In particular, what's the first line? Something like o da, daje?


I guess the first line is "alo tano, daje" = "It came, o mother".


And, regarding the "Ederlezi avela", I'm pretty sure the first word is "phravdilo". It must be 2 words :hmm: .
And, I don't know, the lyrics are a bit confusing to me as well :hmm:

vijayjohn wrote:in particular irin for 'turn!'.


In Arli Romani, we use the verb "irinela" or "iranela" for return/come back. I believe that the etymology is Greek.

vijayjohn wrote:Also, doesn't pekhljan mean 'you cooked' rather than 'you burned'? Or am I completely wrong?


You are right, although it's pekljan (without the "h") - the etimology is the Slavic "peći" I suppose. It can be used in both meanings, though, just like in Serbian - you could use it with the meaning "to cook / to bake" but also "to burn". You could even use it for the ache you feel after you burn yourself ("peče me ruka").

vijayjohn wrote:And "Hajre ma te dikh e daje," which I've definitely heard but know less than any of these other songs


The title is "Hajri ma te dikhe, daje" - the literal translation would be "You will not see goodness, o mother!", it's just a phrase/idiom which we use here, and the equivalent is something like "You will pay for it!" in English.

"hajri" means "goodness" and the etymology is the Arabic خير, we use the same word in other Balkan languages (such as Bosnian, Albanian or Turkish).

vijayjohn wrote:I'm so tempted to try to make sense of this one even though I have no idea what it's saying. :silly:


Yeah, there is a problem when Goṛe, pardon, Gadže, sing Romani songs.. They cannot be understood :lol: :lol:
I'm joking... let me try to give my input to this song.... :hmm:

Naštig te bistrav Tut
I va, našadan? man Tu?
Kaj me te harakhav Tut
T 'avav me paša Tut
Te šaj bistres mange,
Muro varadiripe,
Khere kama? per ___________ baxt
Tu san e Kethane'.
Me dikhav
Te kames
Te bistres
So me kerden.
Na isi sar Tu kame'
Anda ćiro mištipe
Kesusa???.
:?: :?:


:hmm: :hmm: :hmm:
وَقَالُوا لَن يَدْخُلَ الْجَنَّةَ إِلَّا مَن كَانَ هُودًا أَوْ نَصَارَىٰ ۗ تِلْكَ أَمَانِيُّهُمْ ۗ قُلْ هَاتُوا بُرْهَانَكُمْ إِن كُنتُمْ صَادِقِينَ
بَلَىٰ مَنْ أَسْلَمَ وَجْهَهُ لِلَّهِ وَهُوَ مُحْسِنٌ فَلَهُ أَجْرُهُ عِندَ رَبِّهِ وَلَا خَوْفٌ عَلَيْهِمْ وَلَا هُمْ يَحْزَنُونَ

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Re: Romani

Postby SamoSamNina » 2019-03-14, 16:07

I'm late to the party, but welcome back also! :)

I'll just be soaking up all the wonderful linguistic knowledge you two fine gentlemen are sharing, haha. And you're more than welcome to rant if you like :lol: we all have our own nerdy language preferences.

btw, so you can both be embarrassed :P but I've told both my tutor and the Peace Corps language coordinator about you both, that I have some new language geek friends who are quite helpful. they're all fans of you two! :D
“We are not to simply bandage the wounds of victims beneath the wheels of injustice; we are to drive a spoke into the wheel itself.” Dietrich Bonhoeffer

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Re: Romani

Postby vijayjohn » 2019-03-17, 6:22

I for one feel honored that they're so enthusiastic about this study group! :)
cHr0mChIk wrote:Yeah, there is a problem when Goṛe, pardon, Gadže, sing Romani songs.. They cannot be understood :lol: :lol:
I'm joking... let me try to give my input to this song.... :hmm:

Just to be clear, I think the Reifer sisters are Romani themselves.

This is "Loli Phabaj" (Red Apple), a pretty well-known Russian Romani folk song due to this clip from an old Russian movie:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TmhA1993LWY
The lyrics of this version at least are pretty simple, and Ian has them in his course packet roughly as follows with this translation:

And'o verdes dragos nane
Man pirani šukar nane.
Loli phabaj pre činava. Xop xop xop!
Jekh vaš Tuke, jekh vaš mange, xop xop xop.
In the not-so-nice garden,
My sweetheart isn't very good-looking.
I'll cut apart a red apple. Chop chop chop!
One for you and one for me, chop chop chop.

A lot of people seem to interpret the last line as being jekh paš Tuke, jekh paš mange 'one half for you and one half for me'. There are also other versions of this song with the line loli phabaj me činava 'I will cut a red apple' (instead of pre činava 'I'll cut apart'), like this rendition by a group called "Gelem" (sorry for the poor-quality audio and video), where the third stanza is basically a Russian translation of the first one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=do1zrEB8320
I'm not sure what the first two lines of the remaining (second) stanza say. I think I heard the first line as something like Romale, amenge na asa, so I guess 'Roma, don't laugh at us!'?

Another video of that exact same version of the same song is this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3sbHlRhI49A
But there's also this more complicated rendition from outside a cafe in Odessa, Ukraine:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFUTuBfgDgM
The next song that begins at the end of that video is actually a rendition of "Nane còxa," another song from the same movie:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbKypJExQYM
This is their own version (beginning with the footage that ends the last clip from Odessa; see the video description for the lyrics of the original song and a translation into English):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fY9g1ol2Is
I can't make out any other words from their version of this song except for aj či žanav sostar 'oh I don't know why' and kaj merav 'where I (should) die'.

This is their rendition of "Djelem, djelem":
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQd6aL7ixe8
And this is a song I'm completely unfamiliar with called "Bado Rovala":
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0KIlHhcpcU
Plus a few more songs from them (I can't understand much of what they're singing in any of them):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31pOR4RoD8c
Finally, this isn't actually in Romani; it's a Hungarian pop song, but I was kind of surprised that it has so many Romani terms in the lyrics (va, na, či, so, jekh, duj, trin, and especially keres):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCtkrTwwQBA

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Re: Romani

Postby cHr0mChIk » 2019-03-18, 22:38

vijayjohn wrote:I guess hari means 'too little' and brazde means 'furrow'?


"Hari" is simply the Balkan equivalent of the Vlax "cerra".
"Hari" is the opposite of "but".

And, yes, "brazda" is a furrow. We also use it in Serbian, but this word is actually common among all Slavic languages, I believe:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstr ... escendants

vijayjohn wrote:
And'o verdes dragos nane
Man pirani šukar nane.
Loli phabaj pre činava. Xop xop xop!
Jekh vaš Tuke, jekh vaš mange, xop xop xop.
In the not-so-nice garden,
My sweetheart isn't very good-looking.
I'll cut apart a red apple. Chop chop chop!
One for you and one for me, chop chop chop.


I've heard this one before, however, I've always heard the words as the "Andro verdan drukos nane" :hmm:
"There is no pole/shaft on my cart/coach"...

vijayjohn wrote:A lot of people seem to interpret the last line as being jekh paš Tuke, jekh paš mange 'one half for you and one half for me'.


In here, the Vlax Roma say the word "half" is "(j)epaš", while Balkan Roma say "(j)ekvaš"... So it means half regardless :lol:

Also, I am not aware of any Romani word "vaš" on its own :hmm:

vijayjohn wrote:There are also other versions of this song with the line loli phabaj me činava 'I will cut a red apple' (instead of pre činava 'I'll cut apart')


I believe that it's one word - "prečinava". Since, many Romani dialects which came into contact with Slavic languages (mostly Northern and Central Romani dialects) have adopted the Slavic verbal aspect. This is mostly common in Russian Romani, but I believe I've also encountered it in Carpathian Romani.

Slavic verbal aspects are common to all Slavic languages, and it is analogous even to Serbian:
činela - seći/rezati - резать
prečinela - preseći/prerezati - перерезать

You can find so many more examples in Russian Romani, for instance:
phenel - сказать
rasphenel - рассказать
etc.

Also, regarding "hop!" - I believe this is an onomatopoeia for jumping rather for chopping :hmm:
وَقَالُوا لَن يَدْخُلَ الْجَنَّةَ إِلَّا مَن كَانَ هُودًا أَوْ نَصَارَىٰ ۗ تِلْكَ أَمَانِيُّهُمْ ۗ قُلْ هَاتُوا بُرْهَانَكُمْ إِن كُنتُمْ صَادِقِينَ
بَلَىٰ مَنْ أَسْلَمَ وَجْهَهُ لِلَّهِ وَهُوَ مُحْسِنٌ فَلَهُ أَجْرُهُ عِندَ رَبِّهِ وَلَا خَوْفٌ عَلَيْهِمْ وَلَا هُمْ يَحْزَنُونَ

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Re: Romani

Postby cHr0mChIk » 2019-03-18, 22:47

I figured, since I'm already here, lemme translate a song:

Kobor mange falini [How much I miss]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQtg9Po0l1k

Kobor mange falini,
Te ovav laja gušimo.
Te phenel mange: ma rov,
Akate sijum, mo raklo!

Te avel te gušini man,
Lafencar te smirini man.
Te rovel, te stegini man,
Oj te na mukhel man.

Refren:
A dali me rovava,
Palo odova so na dobini pe?
A šaj prastava palo odova
So niked na sine miro, na resela pe...

Šaj ka ave jek dive,
A šaj da niked na džangjola pe.
Me ka udžarav te ave, sar uvek,
Sikliljum agjar te udžarav.

A kobor mangava,
Te avel de dikhel man.
Sar sijum, te phučel man
Te phenav lake, te šunel man.

Te avel te gušini man,
Lafencar te smirini man.
Te rovel, te stegini man,
Oj te na mukhel man.

Refren.
Oh, how much I miss,
To be hugging with her.
That she tells me: don't cry,
I'm here, my boy(friend)!

To come to hug me,
To calm me down with words.
To cry with me, and hold me tight,
And not to let me go.

Chorus:
Am I crying,
For what couldn't be achieved?
Or do I keep running towards something
Which was never mine, which was never reached...

Maybe you come one day,
And maybe it will never be known.
I will wait for you to come, like always,
I have learned to wait like this.

And how much I want,
That she comes to see me.
To ask me how I am,
To listen to me, while I speak to her.

To come to hug me,
To calm me down with words.
To cry with me, and hold me tight,
And not to let me go.

Chorus.
وَقَالُوا لَن يَدْخُلَ الْجَنَّةَ إِلَّا مَن كَانَ هُودًا أَوْ نَصَارَىٰ ۗ تِلْكَ أَمَانِيُّهُمْ ۗ قُلْ هَاتُوا بُرْهَانَكُمْ إِن كُنتُمْ صَادِقِينَ
بَلَىٰ مَنْ أَسْلَمَ وَجْهَهُ لِلَّهِ وَهُوَ مُحْسِنٌ فَلَهُ أَجْرُهُ عِندَ رَبِّهِ وَلَا خَوْفٌ عَلَيْهِمْ وَلَا هُمْ يَحْزَنُونَ

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Re: Romani

Postby vijayjohn » 2019-03-19, 5:38

This is a Christian Evangelical (Global Recordings Network) recording in a variety of Sinti that begins with a song to the tune of "If You're Happy and You Know It," which ends at 2:16. I think it may specifically be in the Manush/Manouche variety spoken in France:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6aoypvY4iE&app=desktop
This is probably total nonsense at this point, but my best attempt to make out the lyrics is something like (with many of the words being pronounced in several different ways):
Prasti pre, dikh n'i jakha durike! (2)
Den, mo Devla, no volbiti ke la telija Tuti!
Prasti pre, dikh n'i jakha durike!

...dikh n'u kango 'i dušunel!
dikh n'u muja 'i Tu pine!
dikh n'u vas k'a Tu kre! :?:
dikh n'i heere k'a Tu čang!
dikh n'u džija 'i Tu padzev! :?:
Run forth, look into my eyes from afar!
My God, speak to us about your life!
Run forth, look into my eyes from afar!

...look inside my church and think!
look into my mouth and your feet!
look into the vase that you created!
look at my hair and your feet!
look at life and your respect!

This is another American Vlax Romani song known by various names, always having something to do with one or more pearls and some other kind of jewelery. However, unlike "A twenty-dollar gold piece," this song was originally a Machwaya song. The Machwaya (if you didn't already know) are originally from the Serbian region of Mačva, but during World War II, almost the entire Romani population either died or fled to the Americas, particularly South America (and, to a lesser extent, Central America, plus North America to an even lesser extent). One rendition of the song is given in "Learn Romani" by Ronald Lee, p. 171-172, with a chorus in English. This is another rendition of the song, entirely in Romani:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2I4NHFwYmw&app=desktop
I can't make out much of the lyrics, but here's my attempt at figuring out the first four lines; after that, all I hear is possibly the next line ending with šave, the next two possibly ending with Devla (especially the seventh line in the song), then two more lines ending the same way (starting three lines later in the second and third lines of the third stanza):
Aj, le, didjan man pe 'l daimànca! :?:
Aj, le, didjan man pe'l lovende!
Aj, didjan pe'l love Amerikàči, ej!
Nas Tu, či mìla č'ilo ànda mande.
Oh, hey, you gave me for diamonds!
Oh, hey, you gave me for money!
Oh, you gave me for American money, hey!
You, your heart didn't have pity on me.

Lee writes, "This was originally a Machwáya song from California attributed to Sylvia and the Four Panthers, a local Los Angeles group in the late 1950s who made a record with it included in the medley, and it is still popular in the US and Canada." This is a recording of Sylvia Costello singing the same song plus one or two other Romani songs, apparently uploaded by her son, Billy, who writes that she wrote, sang, and composed it and is the daughter of another singer named Bella Costello whose own father was Stephen ("Estevano") Costello:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4eao0uoNH40&app=desktop
This is her own version as far as I can tell (kind of hard for me to make out too much of whatever she and Mike are singing after that song in this video):

Can love be as warm as the ruby?
Can love be a shimmer of the gold?
And here in the arms of my love for you,
Find the rubies and the pearls!
Joj, parrudjan man pe'l daimànci!
Joj, parrudjan man, joj, pe'l lovende,
'Aj nas Tuke mìla ànda mande!
Čiro bezax te avel!
Oh, you traded me for diamonds!
Oh, you traded me, oh, for money,
And you didn't have pity on me!
May it be your sin!

(Repeat English lines)

This is a song by a (I think Kalderash) Romani singer from Texas named Boyo Marks and his family:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcLaDvTXyxs&app=desktop
This I think is another rendition of the same song by his sons, Albert and Donald Boyo:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmvxcxu2sSI&app=desktop
This is a version of the song "Me Tut Kamav" that I posted last time that was from Slovakia or Hungary or something (the one I couldn't make out) but by Ricardo Kwiek, who I think is a member of the Polish Romani Kwiek family (Janusz Kwiek was crowned "King of the Gypsies" during World War II and unsuccessfully petitioned Mussolini for a Romani homeland in what was then Abyssinia (now Ethiopia)). Ricardo Kwiek seems to have composed a lot of Vlax Romani Christian Evangelical songs, so this one is about loving God rather than romantic love:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NcgodpThA8Q&app=desktop
I don't think I can make out too many of the words in this one, either, although at least I can understand it a little better than that other song with the same name. Maybe I'll try transcribing it someday if no one else does first.

Here's another Machwaya song because why not:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8_yprxeUCM&app=desktop
This is actually an Angloromani song, not an actual Romani song, but Ian has the lyrics in his course packet, so I thought I'd include it :P
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ki56HP7VvWw&app=desktop
His version of the lyrics (more or less):

All through, me rakeli girl,
Kicking up a gudeli ruckus!
Like me dear old dadus dad, boy,
I'll leave 'er in the tan bed.
Mandi I went to wesh the woods one night
To chin cut a bit o' kosh wood.
Along came the bawlas "pigs," i.e. police
To lell mandi oprey take me away (literally "take me up").
Mandi I lifted up the mush man
And delled him gave him (one) in the pur stomach;
[He] Says, "Like me dear old dadus dad, boy,
You can kor fight well!"
Last edited by vijayjohn on 2019-04-09, 4:42, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Romani

Postby cHr0mChIk » 2019-04-09, 1:59

vijayjohn wrote:Just to be clear, I think the Reifer sisters are Romani themselves.


I was joking when I said that :lol: I am a gadžo myself :lol:

Anyway, I didn't know they were Romani, that's nice.

I have been hesitating to bring much religious stuff, but I figured, why not, here's a Nasheed in Romani language:

Medine! [O Medina!]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rIv07wVOT8o

Medinake mo vilo i hasreti,
Resuleskeri Diz ko mo vilo hi.
Te teljovav odija phuv te resav,
Ah Medine, vaj Medine, Medine!

Me asva tu legare Resuleske!

Refren:
I dunijaja rat rovela, Medine!
Tu učhargjan phuvjaja me Resule.
O ümmeti rat rovela, Medine!
Ki angali leljan mire Resule.

Me asva tu legare Resuleske!

Aman Medine, aman Medine, vaj Medine!
3x

Ki Medina kalo sabaj phravgjola,
Bilaleskoro ezani šungjola.
Nasvalo Resuli, ov na ikljola,
Ah Medine, vaj Medine, Medine!

Me asva tu legare Resuleske!

Refren.

I Medina kalipe ikerela,
Ashabendar o asva thavdena.
Nakhlja o Resuli, haberi dena,
Ah Medine, vaj Medine, Medine!

Me asva tu legare Resuleske!

Refren.
My heart is longing towards Medina,
The City of the Messenger [of God] is in my heart.
To bend down until I reach the ground,
Ah Medina, oh Medina, Medina!

Bring my tears to the Messenger [of God]!

Chorus:
The Duniya (World) is crying in [this] night, o Medina!
For you have covered the Messenger with Earth.
The Ummah (Community) is crying in [this] night, o Medina!
You've taken the Messenger into your bosom.

Bring my tears to the Messenger [of God]!

Ah Medina, ah Medina, oh Medina!
3x

In Medina, the black dawn had come,
The Adhan (Call to Prayer) of Bilal can be heard.
But the Messenger [of God] is ill, he's not coming out,
Ah Medina, oh Medina, Medina!

Bring my tears to the Messenger [of God]!

Chorus.

Medina is covered by darkness,
The Messenger's Companions are shedding tears.
The Messenger had passed away, they're bringing the news,
Ah Medina, oh Medina, Medina!

Bring my tears to the Messenger [of God]!

Chorus.
وَقَالُوا لَن يَدْخُلَ الْجَنَّةَ إِلَّا مَن كَانَ هُودًا أَوْ نَصَارَىٰ ۗ تِلْكَ أَمَانِيُّهُمْ ۗ قُلْ هَاتُوا بُرْهَانَكُمْ إِن كُنتُمْ صَادِقِينَ
بَلَىٰ مَنْ أَسْلَمَ وَجْهَهُ لِلَّهِ وَهُوَ مُحْسِنٌ فَلَهُ أَجْرُهُ عِندَ رَبِّهِ وَلَا خَوْفٌ عَلَيْهِمْ وَلَا هُمْ يَحْزَنُونَ

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Re: Romani

Postby vijayjohn » 2019-04-09, 5:11

I'm going to be kind of lazy this time and just post two Romani songs. :P Both of them at least appear to be from the Balkans (and not from Romania, either), though!

The first is a Romani version of "Malo viski, malo Coca-Cola." It was posted earlier but with a now-dead link, so I reposted it in the "Music in Minority Languages" thread, and now I'm posting it again here. :P Apparently, this clip is from Kosovo:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pu01X3iJGpg
This is another song that I'm guessing from the title may be in a Gurbeti variety of Romani (does that seem about right?):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tACQUOxGeS0

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Re: Romani

Postby cHr0mChIk » 2019-12-12, 18:45

Selam sarinenge! So kerena? So isi tumen nevo? But vakti na pišinđum tumen.

I really haven't posted in this thread (nor in Unilang in general) in such a looong time.

Thank God, I am using Romani language very often in my life these times.

I wanted to write a bit to this thread and I wasn't sure what to write, but then I figured I may go back and read my old messages again, and see whether I wrote some things wrong or incorrect and then correct them.

And oo boy, I found a lot of stuff :lol:

cHr0mChIk wrote:The variety which I knew was not necessarily the one which was spoken in my area, but rather the one in which the vast majority of the songs were - and that's the one where the phonemes "gj" and "kj" exist... - and the past tense is conjugated like vakjergjum, dingjum, dikhljum, mangljum... and the verb "to be" copula is "me sijum, tu sijan, vov si..." etc. (I guess this might be Macedonian Romani.. I don't even know...)


I believe I've already said this in later posts, however to clarify - the variety I'm talking about (the one with "gj", "kj", Perfect tense suffix "-jum", etc.) is the Macedonian Arli Romani.

(also, it's "ov" in Balkan Romani and not "vov" - that would be Vlax).

cHr0mChIk wrote:"I am moving away from the sun = Me našav taro khamehtar..."


Now that I look at this sentence, it seems quite strange to me. Both the "taro" and the suffix "-tar" seem redundant, and either just "Me našava khamestar." or "Me našava taro o kham" seem correct (the second one in particular having a more "Balkan" feel to it).

It's strange to see both used within one sentence, I'm guessing it may be a Serbian influence (where they use both the prepositions with case suffixes and not just the one or the other)?

Could perhaps @vijayjohn or someone who speaks a Vlax variety of Romani clarify how would this particular sentence be said in their variety of Romani? Honestly, I would just say it as "Našava taro o kham."

cHr0mChIk wrote:I noticed some differences from each one of their varieties and also the variety which I've known so far...
I was saying gj and kj in place where they were saying đ and ć (both Serbian and Bosnian Gypsies)
Also Serbian Gypsies (and me) had a "s" where the Bosnian Gypsies had "h" - "he is" = "vov hi" / "vov si"
"khamehtar" / "khamestar" etc.
Even the verb "to be" conjugation was different than how I was saying it:
(me sem, tu san, vov hi - Bosnian Gypsies;
me sem, tu san, vov si - Serbian Gypsies;
me som, tu sal, vov hi - Slovak/Hungarian Gypsies)


To clarify, both the Bosnian and Serbian Roma with whom I was talking there, spoke different regional varieties of Gurbet Romani (which belongs to the Southern Vlax Group), and Slovak and Hungarian Roma spoke various Central Romani dialects.

cHr0mChIk wrote:I've actually learned that in my city there are 2 separate groups of Gypsies.. they call themselves "Muslim Gypsies" and "Serbian Gypsies"... as the way they call themselves implies, their religion is different, but also the variety of Romani that they speak is also completely different...
Muslim Gypsies from my city were having a completely different verb "to be" conjugation which I saw for the first time there:
"me injum, tu injan, vov isi..."
(although the Serbian Gypsies from my city were saying me sem, tu san... etc.)


That is because the "Muslim Roma" have migrated into Northern Serbia mainly from Kosovo or Macedonia, and they spoke more "Southern" Romani Varieties (Balkan Romani dialects such as Arli and Bugurdži), while "Serbian Roma" refers to the people which have been living in these areas for centuries and they mainly spoke Vlax Romani (mainly the Čergarski variety, but there were others as well).

As for the "me injum, tu injan,..."; Arli Romani can be split into 2 subgroups: the "s" group and the "h" group.
Namely, some Arli speakers will say stuff like the copula:
"me si(n)jum, tu si(n)jan,..."
while the others will say it like:
"me hi(n)jum, tu hi(n)jan,..."
same goes for the word "was" (which is "sas" in Vlax Dialects if I remember well) - some will say it as "sine", some as "hine".
That is an interesting phenomenon which appears within every single Romani dialect group, and I believe I have spoken about it before.

From my experience, Arli spoken in Serbia and Kosovo mainly uses "h", while Macedonian and Bulgarian Arli use "s" - even though there may be exceptions.

cHr0mChIk wrote:So.. the reason why I don't know what is the variety which I speak is because I didn't learn Romani mostly from books, but from actual people, and the people were from all the different places... Although they've all been teaching me.. I've always tried to stick to my original variety which I spoke since high school (the one with gj.. vakjergjom, sijum, etc...)...


Nope. The actual reason why I was unsure of what Romani variety I spoke is because I didn't speak any "completely". I learned bits and pieces of Romani from different people and different places, and I knew it "fragmentarily", and also I kept mixing different dialects at the time.

The first variety I started to properly learn was "Gurbet Romani", and I learned it to a certain degree, but never reached fluency in it. Then, upon returning to my hometown in Vojvodina, I learned Arli Romani with the Roma there, and reached fluency in that one.

So the answer is, I speak Arli Romani, even though I am acquainted with other dialects and dialect groups "grammar-wise" but not "vocabulary-wise". What I mean is that I am acquainted with most dialect groups in terms of stuff like morphology, syntax, phonetics, but I do not know their vocabulary that well, so my understanding of different varieties varies.

I can understand Balkan Romani the easiest, and also those Vlax varieties which are spoken in there, such as Gurbet Romani. The more further Geographically they are, the lesser I can understand them.

"Čergari" Roma (Vlax) are probably the most numerous group of Roma in my hometown, however I don't know many of them and I am not really acquainted with their dialect that well.

cHr0mChIk wrote:From what I've experienced so far is that the Romani grammar is the same everywhere


O boy I was so wrong :lol: different varieties of Romani have differences in almost every aspect, including grammar. There are some pretty different varieties of which I cannot understand almost a single word (Finnish Romani :lol: )

cHr0mChIk wrote:Although I'm not sure whether it's sijum or sijom... you can't really tell clearly from the pronunciation, since the vowels are not as clear here... Actually I believe perhaps sijom would be the way it would be officially written.. I just hear sijum, I guess..


Both exist, however, the "-um" is the way it appears to be pronounced in Serbian and Macedonian Arli, while "-om" in Bulgarian Arli (Erli).

This is not just refering to the verb "to be" (copula), but to the Perfect tense as well (dikhljum vs dikhljom, etc.)

cHr0mChIk wrote:But I know that our Muslim Gypsies have ć đ... they say me vaćerđom... so ćere? etc... are these characteristics of the Arli varieties as well? I really don't know the full story...


No they don't. I confused what I learned from Vlax Roma while working in Slovakia with what I learned from Balkan Roma. That's why I mixed the dialects up.

Gurbet Roma say:
"me vaćerdem"
"so ćere?"

Arli Roma (in Serbia) say:
"me vaćerđum" (in Macedonia: "vakjergjum")
"so ćereja?" (in MK: "kereja")

While Bugurdži Roma (another group of "Muslim" Roma from my hometown - whose dialect belongs to the "2nd Balkan group", AKA "Zis Romani group") say:
"me vakerum"
"so keres?"

I think that Čergari Roma say "me vakerdem" and "so keres?", however I am not 100% sure of this one, since I do not know many Čergari people, and I am only familiar with their variety on a really really basic level.

cHr0mChIk wrote:They had regular verbs "to speak" (vaćarel) "to talk" (phenel)...


Correction: "phenel" means "to say", and not "to talk". "vakerel" means both to talk and speak.

cHr0mChIk wrote:Also the word "nothing" was different everywhere.....
Bosnian Gypsies were saying "niso" (which makes sense), and Serbian Gypsies were saying "khanči"
Muslim Gypsies from my city say "ništa" (like in Serbian) - and they told me that Serbian Gypsies from our city also use "khanči"... since, when I asked about "khanči" they said "that's how Serbian Gypsies speak".
How do you say "nothing"?


The "Muslim" Roma in my hometown either say "ništo" or "hič" - and they consider the latter one more "proper Romani."

cHr0mChIk wrote:The neuter pronoun "it"...
Bosnian Gypsies said "guva"
However, the rest said "akava"


It's not a neuter pronoun, it's a demonstrative pronoun. Romani has only two genders.

cHr0mChIk wrote:"How many/How much" ?
Kozom/Kobor - Serbian (including Muslim) Gypsies
Gači - Bosnian Gypsies
Kati/Kaci/Kači/Kaći - something like that - Slovak/Hungarian Gypsies


To be exact, Bosnian Gurbet Romani speakers said "gaći";
Serbian Gurbet speakers said "Kozom".

"Kozom" is also used by Serbian Arli speakers;
and "kobor" is used by Bugurdži speakers and also Macedonian Arli speakers.

Arli people consider "kobor" more "proper" out of the two. Even though, they may be even used interchangeably. I've caught myself using them both interchangeably, even though I may use "kozom" a little more often and the only reason being that this is the word I hear more often around me.

cHr0mChIk wrote:Have you also heard of "hem" / "em" ? Is it maybe used with a different meaning?... hmm


It's a loanword. From Turkish language, ultimately from Persian.

cHr0mChIk wrote:Here:
head = šoro
(...)
neck/throat = /none/ - using Serbian words for these.. I could ask Gypsies from my city about these, though, when I'm back...
(...)
leg/foot = prno (therefore, comes the word "prnali" as well - "footwear / shoes").


I mixed up some things again.
Gurbet Roma from Bosnia said head as
"šoro", while the rest (both Vlax and Balkan Roma) said it as "šero".
"neck" is "men" in Balkan Romani, and "korr" in Vlax.
"throat" is "krlo", which is a Serbian loanword I believe.
I also said this, later on:
cHr0mChIk wrote:In our dialect, the neck is "vrato"

No it's not. It's a Serbianism. The neck is "men", and "vrato" is a Serbianism which some would occasionally use when code-switching, although not that commonly.

And, regarding leg:
"prno" in Vlax
"pro" in Balkan Romani.

I've never heard the word "prnali" used by Roma, the only place I've seen it is the dictionary. Here, we'd say "kundure", which is actually a loanword from Ottoman Turkish (it may ultimately have Greek origin though).

cHr0mChIk wrote:the "most" Gypsy word for it is "kundure"


I wonder what made me think it's "the most Gypsy word". :hmm:

cHr0mChIk wrote:We also say berš, and I say berš as well. However, Bosnian Gypsies said "brš", and Dunđerski dictionary also states "brš". Anyway, I've stumbled on "breš" in literature as well.


Gurbet Roma from Bosnia said "brš", while the rest (Vlax and Balkan Roma) said "berš". Berš is the most typically used word in most dialects, while "brš" is used only in some Vlax varieties.

cHr0mChIk wrote:sky = ćeri / dela... Bosnian Gypsies said: oblakuri


"ćeri" and "dela" are the words I've seen in the dictionary only. In here they'd most of the time just say "nebo" (Slavic loanword), or "devel" (which also means God).

cHr0mChIk wrote:city = foro / diz
bread = marno
little = cikno / tikno
work = bući / buti
word = lafe / alav
death = mulipe
life = životi / džuvdipe (also "trajo" in literature)
(to die = merel; to live = živinel (although Serbian Gypsy in Slovakia told me "užinel" - that sounds like a snack to me :lol:)


"foro(s)" is the Vlax Romani, while "diz" is Balkan Romani. Balkan Roma (ie. Arli) don't use "foro", and when I asked them about it, they told me they haven't heard of this word. However, I've heard one person say in a conversation "grado", which is an obvious Slavic loanword.

"maro" is the way bread is said in here, by all Balkan varieties. It's interesting that "to eat" is "hal maro". For example "I want to eat" = "Mangava te hav maro". It doesn't mean "to eat bread", but to eat in general.

(notice how I wrote it with "h" and not "x". All Balkan varieties I'm acquainted with don't have "x". I've only heard "x" being pronounced by Gurbet Roma).

Work is "buti" in Arli (that's the oldest pronounciation as well). In Gurbet Romani it's "bući" (palatalization); and in Bugurdći Romani it's "buci" (sibilarization).

"word" is "alav" in Vlax Romani and "lafi" in All Balkan varieties I've came in contact with. Other words Roma use regionally include "duma" and "svato" (Slavic loanwords - these words are not used in here, but I've heard them very frequently used by speakers of other Romani varieies) and also "vorba" (Romanian loanword).

"Life" is "životo" in all Balkan varieties spoken in here. Macedonian Arli speakers use "dživdipe" alongside "životo/životi" and both words can be heard interchangeably. "životo/životi" is an obvious Slavic loanword, while the other one is native.
(the same situation is with the verb. There is "živinela" and "dživdinela" - both used interchangeably in Macedonian Arli, however in Serbian and Kosovo Arli - živinela seems to be the only used one).

cHr0mChIk wrote:Why? = Sose? (also soske? soće? sohke?)


"Soske?" is the standard word for "why?" in pretty much every single variety of Romani. When Arli Roma speak in an everyday "slangy"-kinda way, they tend to remove the "k" from the Dative case, therefore saying "sose" instead of "soske"; "lese" instead of "leske", etc. This is done only in really informal speech and rarely can be seen in more serious writing, or in songs, but can be often heard on the streets. Roma acknowledge that saying it with "k" is the proper way of saying it.

The case of "sohke?" is some varieties of Gurbet Romani which turn "s" into "h"; and the case of "soće?" is also used by some varieties of Gurbet Romani, I believe. Since they are very known for their palatalizations of both "t" and "k" into "ć" ;
and also "d" and "g" into "đ", something which Balkan Roma do extremely Rarely - Balkan Roma only palatalize "k" and "d".

Example is "vaćer manđe!" ("tell me" in Gurbet). In Arli it would be "vaker mange" (and I believe in most Romani dialects it would be said similarly) - even though, many Serbian Arli speakers would say "vaćer mange".

cHr0mChIk wrote:When? = Kana?


"Kana?" is used by Vlax Roma and also Bugurdžije which belong to the "2nd Balkan group". Arlije say "ked(a)" or "kad(a)?" - "ked(a)" being more common.

vijayjohn wrote:For me, it's kon, unless it's a relative pronoun or in oblique case. Then it's kaj. In Russian Kalderash, in oblique case, it can instead be kas.


It's "kas" in Balkan Romani as well!

vijayjohn wrote:
cHr0mChIk wrote:"Khali" is translated as zemlja as well.

Huh, okay, didn't know that word

Because it doesn't exist :lol: :lol:

cHr0mChIk wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:Perr, por, etc. are related to the Hindi/Urdu word: [peʈ]. :)

Ohh so this seems to be the second instance from this conversation, where you have "e" and we have "o" (the first one being "head" - šoro / šero).


Once again, <where we have "o"> - no we don't! :lol: I confused dialects again. The only people saying it with "o" were the Bosnian Gurbet Roma - all others I've encountered, said these words with "e".

cHr0mChIk wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:Oh yeah, I forgot about diz! I've never seen that word used in context before, though, only in research papers because it probably doesn't occur much (or at all) in the varieties I'm most familiar with. :P

Same, only seen it in literature. However, remembered it, and decided to include it. :lol:


At the time. "Diz" is the only word I hear nowadays :lol: Balkan Roma do not use "foro" at all, as I've mentioned earlier.

cHr0mChIk wrote:Trin phrala sas, kaj tradine (džalje?) ande e lumja te šaj ćerena penge cikna love. Kana sas te džantar, phenđa e kavrenge o najphuro phral: "Šunen, m'e phralale, dža svako po pesko drom pe trin riga, hem pa jekh brš te arakhljam (I don't think we use pluperfect ever) pe sa akava drom kaj sijam akana!" Le kaver phrala dinđe pengo lafe te akava si te ćeren(...)


O boy this is some broken messed up thing. I wanted to "translate" it from one variety of Romani to other, but I did it accordingly to what I've known of Romani at the time, and that is some mixed dialects. I wanted to analyze it and correct it in this post, however, I've already written a whole novel of an enormous post, so I may do it other time... :lol: :lol:

Hahah it's actually the same case with this:

cHr0mChIk wrote:Na džanava so te pišinav... ake, odlučinava te pišiv o akava diveste... So me kerđum adive...
Me siklino uštava ko dešu jekh, andar i bući. Ćerava popodne, andar o fakulteti...
Ama adive uštljum ko dešu duj sati, te džav ki Džamija, adaleske isi Džuma.
Majpalal, ovljum ko bankake, em onda vratinđum e sobeste (...)


I mixed multiple dialects into one, and even made grammatical mistakes.

I may analyze this in future and point out everything which is wrong with it :lol: :lol:

However, this post is already excruciatingly long, so I've decided to end it here :lol: :lol: :lol:
وَقَالُوا لَن يَدْخُلَ الْجَنَّةَ إِلَّا مَن كَانَ هُودًا أَوْ نَصَارَىٰ ۗ تِلْكَ أَمَانِيُّهُمْ ۗ قُلْ هَاتُوا بُرْهَانَكُمْ إِن كُنتُمْ صَادِقِينَ
بَلَىٰ مَنْ أَسْلَمَ وَجْهَهُ لِلَّهِ وَهُوَ مُحْسِنٌ فَلَهُ أَجْرُهُ عِندَ رَبِّهِ وَلَا خَوْفٌ عَلَيْهِمْ وَلَا هُمْ يَحْزَنُونَ

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Re: Romani

Postby SamoSamNina » 2019-12-14, 13:27

cHr0mChIk wrote:Selam sarinenge! So kerena? So isi tumen nevo? But vakti na pišinđum tumen. I really haven't posted in this thread (nor in Unilang in general) in such a looong time. Thank God, I am using Romani language very often in my life these times.


hejjj mo amal, sar sijan? me da but vakti na pišingjum ništo akate ama sar tu, šaj te kjerav lafi ko romane često ki Šutka me amalencar, ama sar tu šukar džaneja, isi but lafija tare javer čhiba - akate, tari makedonski. pobut sikljovava koga (when) kjerava lafi manušencar ama mangava te isi man pobut materijala ... so šaj te kjera amen? :)

cHr0mChIk wrote:(also, it's "ov" in Balkan Romani and not "vov" - that would be Vlax).


have found this to be the same in colloquial vs what's commonly accepted as the unofficial literary standard - more borrowing from Vlax than not for that.

cHr0mChIk wrote:Now that I look at this sentence, it seems quite strange to me. Both the "taro" and the suffix "-tar" seem redundant, and either just "Me našava khamestar." or "Me našava taro o kham" seem correct (the second one in particular having a more "Balkan" feel to it).


That's what I've found as well in my research at last here in Shutka + Macedonia - if you use a preposition ("taro") you don't need to decline the noun. It seemed a little counterintuitive to me after Serbian - where you *always* decline a noun as required, and it was easier to learn Serbian when I started identifying which prepositions used which grammatical cases - but in Romani it seems a bit more unique, with *either* using a case declension, *or* using a preposition and not using a case declension.

cHr0mChIk wrote:Could perhaps @vijayjohn or someone who speaks a Vlax variety of Romani clarify how would this particular sentence be said in their variety of Romani? Honestly, I would just say it as "Našava taro o kham."


After seeing some new activity on the thread, I pestered him on FB :lol: so I'll let him know to check the thread too, haha.

cHr0mChIk wrote:Nope. The actual reason why I was unsure of what Romani variety I spoke is because I didn't speak any "completely". I learned bits and pieces of Romani from different people and different places, and I knew it "fragmentarily", and also I kept mixing different dialects at the time.


I feel like this will be my life soon enough as I get more of a grip on things :lol:

cHr0mChIk wrote:The first variety I started to properly learn was "Gurbet Romani", and I learned it to a certain degree, but never reached fluency in it. Then, upon returning to my hometown in Vojvodina, I learned Arli Romani with the Roma there, and reached fluency in that one.

So the answer is, I speak Arli Romani, even though I am acquainted with other dialects and dialect groups "grammar-wise" but not "vocabulary-wise". What I mean is that I am acquainted with most dialect groups in terms of stuff like morphology, syntax, phonetics, but I do not know their vocabulary that well, so my understanding of different varieties varies.


Arli is definitely most commonly used and understood, I think, here in Shutka - though my first teacher also spoke Džambaski and I keep hearing that amongst people I know, as well. However, it seems like Arli is quite commonly used in every day stuff in Shutka, though my good friend/second tutor keeps pointing out when people are speaking different dialects.

RE: your comments about dialects, I don't remember when I started working on it (i.e. if i told you already or not), but I did start working on an Excel sheet comparing dialects and whatnot. If you're interested, I could always put it on Google Drive or something and we could both work on it as we encounter things.

cHr0mChIk wrote:
cHr0mChIk wrote:They had regular verbs "to speak" (vaćarel) "to talk" (phenel)...


Correction: "phenel" means "to say", and not "to talk". "vakerel" means both to talk and speak.


oja, agjar tano :)

cHr0mChIk wrote:The "Muslim" Roma in my hometown either say "ništo" or "hič" - and they consider the latter one more "proper Romani."


ništo here in Macedonian. usage of hič depends on context and is more like "never" kind of -

cHr0mChIk wrote:To be exact, Bosnian Gurbet Romani speakers said "gaći";
Serbian Gurbet speakers said "Kozom".

"Kozom" is also used by Serbian Arli speakers;
and "kobor" is used by Bugurdži speakers and also Macedonian Arli speakers.


I've also used kozom more and heard it more. "Kobor" was what I learned in the small amount of material I got, but I've heard kozom way more.

cHr0mChIk wrote:
cHr0mChIk wrote:Have you also heard of "hem" / "em" ? Is it maybe used with a different meaning?... hmm


It's a loanword. From Turkish language, ultimately from Persian.


yes, and quite common in MK.

cHr0mChIk wrote:
cHr0mChIk wrote:And, regarding leg:
"prno" in Vlax
"pro" in Balkan Romani.


I've never heard the word "prnali" used by Roma, the only place I've seen it is the dictionary. Here, we'd say "kundure", which is actually a loanword from Ottoman Turkish (it may ultimately have Greek origin though).


wow, different - here it's čang.

All the other notes about dialectic comparison are interesting - and for things I've heard before, what you've said lines up with the dialects I've come into contact with or heard from my teachers :)

cHr0mChIk wrote:
cHr0mChIk wrote:When? = Kana?


"Kana?" is used by Vlax Roma and also Bugurdžije which belong to the "2nd Balkan group". Arlije say "ked(a)" or "kad(a)?" - "ked(a)" being more common.


In Shutka at least the Macedonian loan word "koga" has taken over - I haven't heard anyone say 'kana' though people who know would probably identify it as the literary 'standard'

When I have time later i'll organize my notes and such and share them with whomever is interested. I'll be traveling a bit soon and one of my tutors is going to give me some homework so I can share prompts and responses/corrections if anyone's interested in nerding out :)
“We are not to simply bandage the wounds of victims beneath the wheels of injustice; we are to drive a spoke into the wheel itself.” Dietrich Bonhoeffer

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Re: Romani

Postby cHr0mChIk » 2019-12-14, 16:53

Oh my God... You have to be kidding me :roll: I just wrote a long response to what you've written and right before pressing "submit", while I was re-reading my message and making sure it's fine before I send it, my computer just randomly crashed and shut down... And I lost all what I've written...

This happened waaay to many times in the past and that's why I'd always first write the message in a text editor (such as Notepad), saving after every paragraph, not to lose any progress, and then in the end, just pasting it here and pressing submit...

But for some reason I didn't do it this time ... Ugh... I'll write my response later on :roll:
وَقَالُوا لَن يَدْخُلَ الْجَنَّةَ إِلَّا مَن كَانَ هُودًا أَوْ نَصَارَىٰ ۗ تِلْكَ أَمَانِيُّهُمْ ۗ قُلْ هَاتُوا بُرْهَانَكُمْ إِن كُنتُمْ صَادِقِينَ
بَلَىٰ مَنْ أَسْلَمَ وَجْهَهُ لِلَّهِ وَهُوَ مُحْسِنٌ فَلَهُ أَجْرُهُ عِندَ رَبِّهِ وَلَا خَوْفٌ عَلَيْهِمْ وَلَا هُمْ يَحْزَنُونَ

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Re: Romani

Postby SamoSamNina » 2019-12-16, 10:18

cHr0mChIk wrote:Oh my God... You have to be kidding me :roll: I just wrote a long response to what you've written and right before pressing "submit", while I was re-reading my message and making sure it's fine before I send it, my computer just randomly crashed and shut down... And I lost all what I've written...

This happened waaay to many times in the past and that's why I'd always first write the message in a text editor (such as Notepad), saving after every paragraph, not to lose any progress, and then in the end, just pasting it here and pressing submit...

But for some reason I didn't do it this time ... Ugh... I'll write my response later on :roll:


noooooo :shock: :x
“We are not to simply bandage the wounds of victims beneath the wheels of injustice; we are to drive a spoke into the wheel itself.” Dietrich Bonhoeffer

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Re: Romani

Postby cHr0mChIk » 2019-12-16, 17:22

SamoSamNina wrote:noooooo :shock: :x


It's alright, I was able to recover the message, thank God :D :ohwell:

SamoSamNina wrote:hejjj mo amal, sar sijan? me da but vakti na pišingjum ništo akate ama sar tu, šaj te kjerav lafi ko romane često ki Šutka me amalencar, ama sar tu šukar džaneja, isi but lafija tare javer čhiba - akate, tari makedonski. pobut sikljovava koga (when) kjerava lafi manušencar ama mangava te isi man pobut materijala ... so šaj te kjera amen? :)


Drago mange so isi tut prilika često te ćere romano lafi. Mangeja po-but materijala? Rakljan li materijali so bičhalđum tut? Baro Nimeti tano koga injam okružene romano čhibeja, hem koga isi amen prilika te koristina le. Me da me mangava inšallah te džav ki Šutka jek dive.

SamoSamNina wrote:I feel like this will be my life soon enough as I get more of a grip on things :lol:


It seems to me that your Romani is pretty good already, and that you have a way better and more solid knowledge of it, than I had at the time when I used to do that, so I feel like you're way past that stage.

SamoSamNina wrote:RE: your comments about dialects, I don't remember when I started working on it (i.e. if i told you already or not), but I did start working on an Excel sheet comparing dialects and whatnot. If you're interested, I could always put it on Google Drive or something and we could both work on it as we encounter things.


I've actually made the same thing looong time ago (maybe like 2 years ago or something) :lol: :lol: If you want to, we can both share it with each other and compare what we've written. Even though I feel like mine could be updated a bit... :lol:

SamoSamNina wrote:oja, agjar tano :)


"Oja" - but interesno lafi. Šunđum le, ama po-retko. Uglavnom Arlije akate phenena "po". Ama šunđum "oja" ko Prištinsko dijalekti. Bugurdžije phenena "va". Izgledini-pe mange deka tu vaćereja ko Arlisko dijalekti? Vaćerđan amen deka to učitelji tano Džambazi? Savo dijalekti sikljovela tut? Džaneja li Džambasko, ili samo Arlisko?

SamoSamNina wrote:ništo here in Macedonian. usage of hič depends on context and is more like "never" kind of -


Yeah, you're right... I guess.. :lol: ... Either way, "ništo" is the main word used here as well. Čergari use words like "khanči"... and Gurbet speakers from Bosnia were saying "niso"...

"Hič" is indeed dependant on context... and much more rarely used, but can be interchanged with "ništo"...

SamoSamNina wrote:I've also used kozom more and heard it more. "Kobor" was what I learned in the small amount of material I got, but I've heard kozom way more.


Oh that's interesting... I've always had an impression that Macedonian Arli speakers preferred "kobor"... I think it's considered more "standard" than "kozom" is, in Šutka. Am I right?

SamoSamNina wrote:
cHr0mChIk wrote:It's a loanword. From Turkish language, ultimately from Persian.


yes, and quite common in MK.


Yeah, well I believe it's the only word used in Arli. "Thaj" is only used by Gurbeti and Džambazi, am I right? However, I am aware that in what Šutka people consider to be "standard" Romani, they would use "thaj", even though it's a Vlax influence, but they do it because they are trying to avoid loanwords.

SamoSamNina wrote:
cHr0mChIk wrote:I've never heard the word "prnali" used by Roma, the only place I've seen it is the dictionary. Here, we'd say "kundure", which is actually a loanword from Ottoman Turkish (it may ultimately have Greek origin though).


wow, different - here it's čang.


Wait, what? Seriously? That's cool to know. In Serbian Arli Romani - "leg" is "pro".
(also, a little correction - shoes are "kundre" in Arli :lol: )

SamoSamNina wrote:In Shutka at least the Macedonian loan word "koga" has taken over - I haven't heard anyone say 'kana' though people who know would probably identify it as the literary 'standard'


Yeah :lol: I forgot to mention that one. Even though "koga" is not used in here, every Arli speaker is familiar with it. The same case is with "deka" :lol: :lol:

SamoSamNina wrote:When I have time later i'll organize my notes and such and share them with whomever is interested. I'll be traveling a bit soon and one of my tutors is going to give me some homework so I can share prompts and responses/corrections if anyone's interested in nerding out :)


Yes, please. :D

Also, if Vijayjohn comes back here, I have a few questions about Vlax Romani.

Such as how would he say "I'm sorry" or "excuse me"?;

also about those verbs which end with "-a" in their root, such as "asala" (to smile). How would they say it in Perfect tense? we would say "asandiljum"... we add that -indi- infix for such verbs. (same case is for the verbs such as "darandiljum" and "prastandiljum" - "darala" and "prastala" in Present).
I wonder whether it is "asailem", "darailem", "prastilem" - or maybe "asajem", "darajem", "prastajem" ? Or something third?

I know about verbs ending with "-d", that you do not add the "-in-" infix - (you don't say "dinđum", "rodinđum", "vazdinđum" - but "dem", "rodem", "vazdem" instead).. but I am not sure about the "-a" verbs.

How would the sentence "I don't know whether you will come" in your variety of Romani?
I would either say "na džanava, dali ka ave", or "na džanava aveja li", but you've told me that your dialect doesn't use a question marker, so I am wondering how would you say this sentence.

Umm I can't remember any more questions I had, that's all I have in my mind for now... Hope to hear from y'all soon and revive this thread hopefully :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
وَقَالُوا لَن يَدْخُلَ الْجَنَّةَ إِلَّا مَن كَانَ هُودًا أَوْ نَصَارَىٰ ۗ تِلْكَ أَمَانِيُّهُمْ ۗ قُلْ هَاتُوا بُرْهَانَكُمْ إِن كُنتُمْ صَادِقِينَ
بَلَىٰ مَنْ أَسْلَمَ وَجْهَهُ لِلَّهِ وَهُوَ مُحْسِنٌ فَلَهُ أَجْرُهُ عِندَ رَبِّهِ وَلَا خَوْفٌ عَلَيْهِمْ وَلَا هُمْ يَحْزَنُونَ

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Re: Romani

Postby cHr0mChIk » 2019-12-30, 4:01

Pozdrav! No activity here, but I've decided to share something with you which I found interesting.

It's known to us that Romani language has a large number of dialects (it seems to be something around 30-40 distinct dialects), among which a lot are not even mutually intelligible.

However, another interesting thing to note is that even within one dialect there is a lot of variation, and regionally a single dialect may sound very different and even make it difficult to understand each other.

I stumbled upon a video some time ago which is titled "100 phrases English / 100 fraze Romani čhib (Arli)" - and today I decided to share it with you and analyze the contents of it a bit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k308ChfwC88

When I watched through the video, I noticed that this is not the most common "type" of Arli. My initial thought was that this could be Kosovo Arli, and I decided to write out and analyze all the phrases this video teaches, and compare it with the two varieties of Arli that I am familiar with (the Arli spoken in my hometown - which I would label as the "Serbian Arli", and the Šutka "Macedonian Arli").

However, when I researched a bit the origin of the maker of this video, it seems that he is from Sweden, but born in Kostolac, Serbia, and he seems to be a Romani writer, publisher, designer, and a teacher.

It appears that actually, the type of Arli he speaks and writes in, is more appropriate to be labelled as the "Serbian Arli"; and, since most of the Arlis from my hometown have originally come from Kosovo - it would be more appropriate to label my variety as the "Kosovo Arli".

Either way, I am about to write out all the phrases he teaches in the video, and compare it with the other two Arli varieties I'm familiar with. Feel free to contribute to this post if you feel like it, or if you want to.

► Show Spoiler


The first thing that I've noticed upon analyzing this video is the possessive pronouns they use. "Miklo-miklji", "tiklo-tiklji". The way we use them in here (and also in Macedonia) is: "mlo-mli", "tlo-tli" - the long forms; and the "mo-mi", "to-ti" - the short forms. I've never encountered the ones he is using.

Another thing is words like "where?": - he said "kuri?". I haven't encountered that one. Instead, we say "kaj?", just like the majority of Romani dialects, I believe. The same case is with "maje" instead of "mange". I've actually encountered this before, however, in here, only "mange" is heard - and this is actually the same in the majority of Romani dialects.

Palatalizing "k" in the word "tuće" was interesting, because here it's not done in this particular instance. We say "tuke", and only Gurbet dialect speakers here say "tuće", that I am aware of.

They use strange vocabulary sometimes - such as "podosna" and "pladne". These words seem Slavic to me, however in here, such things would be said differently.

Also, it surprised me to hear some more rare, and more archaic vocabulary, such as "ćenefi", "čhindiljum", "tušalo", "akšami" - these words are known but not used as frequent as the loanwords, and may not be known to everybody.

For example, I didn't know of "čhindiljum", and also "biđidinava" - which are rare words.

Anyway, here's also "Romani Arli Alfabeta" from the same channel:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2_BA9w6Q-k

Image

And, also a bonus for you!

I thought maybe this next video would be interesting to you. It's a recording of an older lady from the village of Asanbegovo, speaking about the everyday life of her people, in Arli dialect.

The interesting thing about this is that her speech has been transcribed all with diacritical marks to denote Palatalization, and accent marks + it has been translated to English, so it could be useful for the learners of Arli, or of Romani in general.

Here is the link:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mAZ0peSIIMw

I appologize for the long post!

Oven saste, hem in šaa' Allah ka dikha amen uskoro! :D
وَقَالُوا لَن يَدْخُلَ الْجَنَّةَ إِلَّا مَن كَانَ هُودًا أَوْ نَصَارَىٰ ۗ تِلْكَ أَمَانِيُّهُمْ ۗ قُلْ هَاتُوا بُرْهَانَكُمْ إِن كُنتُمْ صَادِقِينَ
بَلَىٰ مَنْ أَسْلَمَ وَجْهَهُ لِلَّهِ وَهُوَ مُحْسِنٌ فَلَهُ أَجْرُهُ عِندَ رَبِّهِ وَلَا خَوْفٌ عَلَيْهِمْ وَلَا هُمْ يَحْزَنُونَ


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