Romani

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vijayjohn
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Re: Romani

Postby vijayjohn » 2019-02-25, 16:25

SamoSamNina wrote:years ago I was active on the BCS forum since I studied that for a few years in undergrad.

No kidding! The BCS forum is one I post in sometimes, too (it's been quite a while, though!).
I read you studied with Ian Hancock a bit?

Yep! I took his undergrad Romani Studies course as soon as I started college, wrote a term paper for it, worked on it before submitting it to a journal with his help, then worked with him again on my master's thesis.
Do you have any feedback about language materials? I know he has a handbook for Vlax Romani which I hope to acquire at some point, but other than that, as I'm sure you know, the plight is really lack of materials.

Yeah, I don't have a lot more to add, unfortunately. :|
In the few years I'll be here in Skopje, I'm hoping to help my tutor and colleagues who teach Romani to assemble some more stuff, hopefully.

If anyone would like, I have a PDF I scanned of some material they use in school here to help with Romani. My tutor's critiques of it include that it isn't done by a linguist or language teacher so there are some things that are inconsistent, a number of words that aren't really used by anyone, but just tapped because they have an Indic root. Also the author mixes dialects a bit so there's no consistency there too, but as I remind him, us beggars can't be choosers -- I appreciate all language material.

Also I'm a huge language nerd, so I have a playlist of stuff that's a combination of traditional and modern stuff that's popular now - if anyone would like, I'd be happy to assemble some on youtube and share the link.

I'm also happy to help forward on any nerdy linguistic questions to my friends who are language teachers and native speakers, too -- while it may be more specific for Macedonia's dialects, I'm happy to share the resources I have access to!

I have no words. :P Whatever you can share would be amazing, thanks!

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Re: Romani

Postby SamoSamNina » 2019-02-25, 16:39

vijayjohn wrote:No kidding! The BCS forum is one I post in sometimes, too (it's been quite a while, though!).


aww, BCS <3 the good old days, aka what gave me my headstart in Macedonian. It's been weird to transition to the language of no cases, but now I'm finding it hard to switch back, haha.

vijayjohn wrote:Yep! I took his undergrad Romani Studies course as soon as I started college, wrote a term paper for it, worked on it before submitting it to a journal with his help, then worked with him again on my master's thesis.


Ooookay, you don't just leave a girl hanging with that, okay?! How was the Romani Studies course; what was your master's thesis on; how do you find the language so far.... basically, I want to know everything, haha. (aka finally someone I can nerd out with on this language)

vijayjohn wrote:Yeah, I don't have a lot more to add, unfortunately. :|


I figured such was the case. Still, thought it worth an ask!

vijayjohn wrote:I have no words. :P Whatever you can share would be amazing, thanks!


Here's the PDF -- It's a mix of Džambas and other dialects. in Macedonia, and for sure in Shutka, Džambas is one of the big ones; my tutor and my host family speak it. Shutka gives kind of a mix of dialects, including Erli and Kovač. According to my tutor, Erli is kind of considered the unofficial standard, though there is a sizable Džambas-speaking population here too.
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Re: Romani

Postby vijayjohn » 2019-02-25, 22:39

SamoSamNina wrote:Ooookay, you don't just leave a girl hanging with that, okay?! How was the Romani Studies course; what was your master's thesis on; how do you find the language so far.... basically, I want to know everything, haha. (aka finally someone I can nerd out with on this language)

Heheh, well, I've always loved working with Ian! My parents are Indian (if you didn't already know), so Romani doesn't feel too hard for me. It feels like an Indian language except easier and with lots of loanwords from languages that aren't all that unfamiliar to me.

The Romani Studies course went great, although I don't think any of the other students were as enthusiastic about it as I was. :lol: I had to write a movie review and a term paper for it, both of which I needed to ask him for help with because I had no idea what to write either on. I watched Dom za vešanje (a.k.a. Time of the Gypsies) for the movie review and wrote the term paper on the history of Romani numerals, because Ian pointed out to me that each Romani numeral of Indic origin most closely resembles its equivalent(s) in a different Indic language or set of languages. For example, jekh in Romani resembles its Hindi equivalent ek, but duj is a bit different from Hindi do (although at least Vlax Romani also has do in oblique case) and much more similar to the Bengali equivalent dui.

He was happy with this term paper and even offered to help me turn it into a journal paper! I gladly accepted because I really wanted to do research in linguistics (I'd already started doing it on my own), and he was always far more enthusiastic about doing it with me than any of the other faculty. So we worked on it for a few years before submitting it to a journal called Anthropological Linguistics, which neither accepted nor rejected it but instead asked for a recommendation for a reader! We recommended someone but never heard anything after that.

My master's thesis was broader than that paper and kind of re-evaluating some of the older literature on the origins of the Romani language. I supported the view that Romani originated not from any single Indo-Aryan language, but rather from multiple closely related Indo-Aryan language varieties.

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Re: Romani

Postby SamoSamNina » 2019-02-25, 23:00

vijayjohn wrote:Heheh, well, I've always loved working with Ian! My parents are Indian (if you didn't already know), so Romani doesn't feel too hard for me. It feels like an Indian language except easier and with lots of loanwords from languages that aren't all that unfamiliar to me.


That's super interesting to hear, though. My best friend is Gujarati and also speaks Hindi, and puts up with me throwing out random words in Romani I learn that I figure out are related to Hindi or Urdu. She's read a few things herself after me yapping enough about Romani, and feels that she can see a fair bit of stuff that's reminiscent of Rajasthani, too. (Basically I'll just use all this as an excuse to tackle Hindi/Urdu next, though I've got an ongoing love affair with Punjabi that I'll eventually assuage...)

vijayjohn wrote:The Romani Studies course went great, although I don't think any of the other students were as enthusiastic about it as I was. :lol:


haha, this sounds like me with almost all of my nerdy language endeavors...I approve wholeheartedly :D

vijayjohn wrote:I had to write a movie review and a term paper for it, both of which I needed to ask him for help with because I had no idea what to write either on. I watched Dom za vešanje (a.k.a. Time of the Gypsies) for the movie review and wrote the term paper on the history of Romani numerals, because Ian pointed out to me that each Romani numeral of Indic origin most closely resembles its equivalent(s) in a different Indic language or set of languages. For example, jekh in Romani resembles its Hindi equivalent ek, but duj is a bit different from Hindi do (although at least Vlax Romani also has do in oblique case) and much more similar to the Bengali equivalent dui.


Oooh, yes that one. I'm still working my way through it, though everyone I know who's mentioned it seems to really like it. It's on youtube and I'm about halfway now, though the plot just doesn't seem to really speak to me enough to motivate me to finish...I will eventually.

vijayjohn wrote:He was happy with this term paper and even offered to help me turn it into a journal paper! I gladly accepted because I really wanted to do research in linguistics (I'd already started doing it on my own), and he was always far more enthusiastic about doing it with me than any of the other faculty. So we worked on it for a few years before submitting it to a journal called Anthropological Linguistics, which neither accepted nor rejected it but instead asked for a recommendation for a reader! We recommended someone but never heard anything after that.

My master's thesis was broader than that paper and kind of re-evaluating some of the older literature on the origins of the Romani language. I supported the view that Romani originated not from any single Indo-Aryan language, but rather from multiple closely related Indo-Aryan language varieties.


Aaaaaand can I maybe get a copy of said thesis perhaps? hmm? :yep:
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Re: Romani

Postby cHr0mChIk » 2019-02-25, 23:41

SamoSamNina wrote:Pozdrav tari Shutka ki Makedonija!

I haven't been active on these forums in yeeeears but it makes me so happy to see an active thread for Romani! <3 Excuse me while I catch up on all the posts first :D


Šukar aljan, mi phen! You are not aware how glad I am to see a new Romani nerd hop on our thread!

SamoSamNina wrote:me sijum
tu sijan
vov/voj si
amen sijam
tumen sijen
ola si


I've been living and closely interacting with Roma for the past year and I've mainly acquired the Arli dialect because that's the one I'm mostly exposed to. Although I am familiar with most other dialect groups from the grammar point of view. The "to be" which I have personally been using is almost exactly the same as yours, with a few exceptions:

Me sijum
Tu sijan
Ov tano
Oj tani

Amen sijam
Tumen sijen
On tane



Regrading the Romani PDF materials, I have acquired hundreds of them in the past months, so, if anyone is interested I could perhaps upload them to a cloud and share with you guys. I am very interested in all Romani materials on which I can get my hands on, so if you have some materials which I haven't encountered yet, share them if you want and can.

Regarding the Romani dialects of Macedonia, I have a lot of materials, however, most of them are in German language. Do you understand German? If you do, I could send you, and recommend you some really good works where pretty much all dialects spoken in this area are covered.
وَقَالُوا لَن يَدْخُلَ الْجَنَّةَ إِلَّا مَن كَانَ هُودًا أَوْ نَصَارَىٰ ۗ تِلْكَ أَمَانِيُّهُمْ ۗ قُلْ هَاتُوا بُرْهَانَكُمْ إِن كُنتُمْ صَادِقِينَ
بَلَىٰ مَنْ أَسْلَمَ وَجْهَهُ لِلَّهِ وَهُوَ مُحْسِنٌ فَلَهُ أَجْرُهُ عِندَ رَبِّهِ وَلَا خَوْفٌ عَلَيْهِمْ وَلَا هُمْ يَحْزَنُونَ

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Re: Romani

Postby SamoSamNina » 2019-02-26, 0:01

cHr0mChIk wrote:Šukar aljan, mi phen! You are not aware how glad I am to see a new Romani nerd hop on our thread!


about as glad as I am to see this thread alive and well, even amongst three of us :)

cHr0mChIk wrote:I've been living and closely interacting with Roma for the past year and I've mainly acquired the Arli dialect because that's the one I'm mostly exposed to. Although I am familiar with most other dialect groups from the grammar point of view. The "to be" which I have personally been using is almost exactly the same as yours, with a few exceptions:

Me sijum
Tu sijan
Ov tano
Oj tani

Amen sijam
Tumen sijen
On tane


oooh, interesting. I threw that example out there because I'd remembered seeing it in previous posts -- I'll spend some more time this week/weekend digging through the thread to share any examples I know of things you guys have shared already, too. Basically I'm ready to inhale as much material as you all share, haha.

cHr0mChIk wrote:Regrading the Romani PDF materials, I have acquired hundreds of them in the past months, so, if anyone is interested I could perhaps upload them to a cloud and share with you guys. I am very interested in all Romani materials on which I can get my hands on, so if you have some materials which I haven't encountered yet, share them if you want and can.


"if anyone is interested" - um, heck yes please and ov sasto :D

cHr0mChIk wrote:Regarding the Romani dialects of Macedonia, I have a lot of materials, however, most of them are in German language. Do you understand German? If you do, I could send you, and recommend you some really good works where pretty much all dialects spoken in this area are covered.


I don't understand German, howeverrrrr I have a friend who is in Kochani and plays music with some Roma musicians there, and my friend has a PhD in Germanics and is interested enough in Romani that if I sent him said materials, he'd probably help me work through them - so sure, I'd take some recommendations!
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Re: Romani

Postby cHr0mChIk » 2019-02-26, 0:09

This would be my correction of the message you wrote:

SamoSamNina wrote:Zdravo! Mo anav si Nina thaj me sijum tari Amerika. Akana me bešava ki Makedonija, ki Shutka. Akate me kjerava buti ki jekh organzacija thaj jekh škola/sikhavdi, thaj me ka ovav akate duj berš. trenutno/momentalno/akanate na džanava romane but šukar ama panda sikljovava.



1. Mlo > Mo
Possessive pronouns in Romani language can be either long or short. Short are "mo", "to", etc. while long ones vary from dialect to dialect.
(from my experience, regarding Romani in Macedonia and South Serbia, the Gurbet/Džambaz dialect uses "miro" and "tiro"; Bugurdži uses "mro" / "tro"; while Arli uses "mlo" / "tlo") - that's at least what I have observed. My ears are used to "mlo" / "tlo", though.

In this particular situation, the short pronoun would be used. The situation is similar to English "my" vs "mine". So basically, the sentence you wrote would be translated as "mine name is Nina", which is incorrect. That is at least from the perspective of the dialect which I speak. Correct me if I'm wrong.


2. Me
It would be unnecessary to write personal pronouns in every sentence. They can be omitted because they are redundant.

The rest were either some spelling errors or words which were more appropriate.
وَقَالُوا لَن يَدْخُلَ الْجَنَّةَ إِلَّا مَن كَانَ هُودًا أَوْ نَصَارَىٰ ۗ تِلْكَ أَمَانِيُّهُمْ ۗ قُلْ هَاتُوا بُرْهَانَكُمْ إِن كُنتُمْ صَادِقِينَ
بَلَىٰ مَنْ أَسْلَمَ وَجْهَهُ لِلَّهِ وَهُوَ مُحْسِنٌ فَلَهُ أَجْرُهُ عِندَ رَبِّهِ وَلَا خَوْفٌ عَلَيْهِمْ وَلَا هُمْ يَحْزَنُونَ

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Re: Romani

Postby SamoSamNina » 2019-02-26, 0:24

cHr0mChIk wrote:This would be my correction of the message you wrote:

1. Mlo > Mo
Possessive pronouns in Romani language can be either long or short. Short are "mo", "to", etc. while long ones vary from dialect to dialect.
(from my experience, regarding Romani in Macedonia and South Serbia, the Gurbet/Džambaz dialect uses "miro" and "tiro"; Bugurdži uses "mro" / "tro"; while Arli uses "mlo" / "tlo") - that's at least what I have observed. My ears are used to "mlo" / "tlo", though.


Yep, from what I've gathered so far, it's dialectic differences. The language materials my organization provided me with (that my supervisor actually helped put together) uses "mlo/tlo" whereas my colleague and my tutor use "miro/tiro"

cHr0mChIk wrote:In this particular situation, the short pronoun would be used. The situation is similar to English "my" vs "mine". So basically, the sentence you wrote would be translated as "mine name is Nina", which is incorrect. That is at least from the perspective of the dialect which I speak. Correct me if I'm wrong.


Maybe? It's a question I can ask my tutor. The materials I have/what I've learned and use so far/when I practice with people (sans corrections here in Shutka) haven't commented on short pronouns or not, so I'd interpreted "mlo anav" to be like "moje ime" in Serbian. I'll double check the materials I got from my organization, but I'm fairly certain that it was included in a table that essentially was just possessive pronouns, hence my assumption.

There's honestly a bunch of nerdy language stuff I have questions for on Romani and just haven't gotten around to asking, but realistically I've barely been studying it for like a month total. The perk is that thanks to a kick ass Serbian professor who helped me understand how I best study languages/provided me a really great background in *one* language, now I have an idea of what kind of information I want to know to learn something like this that doesn't have a bunch of resources. Since the ones I do have access to didn't mention anything about a short pronoun vs long, it's something I can pester my tutor/colleagues about and see if it applies here, and if so, how does it work :)

cHr0mChIk wrote:2. Me
It would be unnecessary to write personal pronouns in every sentence. They can be omitted because they are redundant.

The rest were either some spelling errors or words which were more appropriate.


Yes, I know it's redundant, but I'm still a little baby in this language and I'll keep my training wheels on a bit longer until I know more and can actually converse better :P

And not to nitpick too much ;) but. it's not škola here in Macedonian, haha, but školo :P and 'sikljovni' is the Romani variant here that I've heard/seen more, though most people tend to use školo. 'Trenutno' or 'momentalno' would work since those words exist in Macedonian as well, but I also hear people use 'akana' a lot so I just got into the habit. Haven't heard 'akanate' yet but I'll ask; now I'm curious. Also, what's "panda" mean?

(Also, thank you for your comments & feedback! Much appreciated :D )
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Re: Romani

Postby cHr0mChIk » 2019-02-26, 0:38

SamoSamNina wrote:And not to nitpick too much ;) but. it's not škola here in Macedonian, haha, but školo :P and 'sikljovni' is the Romani variant here that I've heard/seen more, though most people tend to use školo.


Oh that's very interesting. I actually thought it was a typo :lol: since I haven't encountered "školo" before.

SamoSamNina wrote:'Trenutno' or 'momentalno' would work since those words exist in Macedonian as well, but I also hear people use 'akana' a lot so I just got into the habit. Haven't heard 'akanate' yet but I'll ask; now I'm curious.


There is a difference between "akana" and "akanate/trenutno/momentalno". "Akana" just means "now", therefore, the sentence would be "Now I don't know Romani, but I'm still learning" - which doesn't really sound the best. "Akanate/trenutno/momentalno", on the other hand, means "at the moment", which fits much better in the context.

SamoSamNina wrote:Also, what's "panda" mean?


"Panda" means "still". Like Serbian "još", or Macedonian "ušte". Since you're not acquainted with this word, is there any alternative you use instead?

SamoSamNina wrote:(Also, thank you for your comments & feedback! Much appreciated :D )


You're welcome, I'm always glad to talk about this topic! :D
وَقَالُوا لَن يَدْخُلَ الْجَنَّةَ إِلَّا مَن كَانَ هُودًا أَوْ نَصَارَىٰ ۗ تِلْكَ أَمَانِيُّهُمْ ۗ قُلْ هَاتُوا بُرْهَانَكُمْ إِن كُنتُمْ صَادِقِينَ
بَلَىٰ مَنْ أَسْلَمَ وَجْهَهُ لِلَّهِ وَهُوَ مُحْسِنٌ فَلَهُ أَجْرُهُ عِندَ رَبِّهِ وَلَا خَوْفٌ عَلَيْهِمْ وَلَا هُمْ يَحْزَنُونَ

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Re: Romani

Postby SamoSamNina » 2019-02-26, 8:22

cHr0mChIk wrote:Oh that's very interesting. I actually thought it was a typo :lol: since I haven't encountered "školo" before.


heh, welcome to the life of Makedonski :P

cHr0mChIk wrote:There is a difference between "akana" and "akanate/trenutno/momentalno". "Akana" just means "now", therefore, the sentence would be "Now I don't know Romani, but I'm still learning" - which doesn't really sound the best. "Akanate/trenutno/momentalno", on the other hand, means "at the moment", which fits much better in the context.


Gotcha! Thanks, profe :)

cHr0mChIk wrote:"Panda" means "still". Like Serbian "još", or Macedonian "ušte". Since you're not acquainted with this word, is there any alternative you use instead?


Nope, akana is just what I had in my linguistic arsenal so far so it's what I've been using I'll ask my tutor if people here use the word 'panda' or what the equivalent would be.

cHr0mChIk wrote:You're welcome, I'm always glad to talk about this topic! :D


Heck, I'm glad to have someone who knows it more than I do and is happy to talk about it. Basically I'll be pestering you for the next few years :P So are the variant(s) you speak/know more Balkan and Vlax Romani?
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Re: Romani

Postby SamoSamNina » 2019-02-26, 13:05

cHr0mChIk wrote:There is a difference between "akana" and "akanate/trenutno/momentalno". "Akana" just means "now", therefore, the sentence would be "Now I don't know Romani, but I'm still learning" - which doesn't really sound the best. "Akanate/trenutno/momentalno", on the other hand, means "at the moment", which fits much better in the context.


Well I meant to say "now I don't know it that well but I'm learning", which sounded fine enough to me :P but according to my tutor, akanate is used more in Serbia but not in Macedonia, interestingly enough. Otherwise people would probably pull a Macedonian equivalent or something in.

cHr0mChIk wrote:"Panda" means "still". Like Serbian "još", or Macedonian "ušte". Since you're not acquainted with this word, is there any alternative you use instead?


I didn't use it because I didn't know it, haha, but my tutor said that 'panda' is used here too.

I took him through some of the resources you all had mentioned in the previous 8 pages of posts, and shared a bit about what we're talking about now. He's super happy that there are people interested in in Romani and are learning it/talking about it!

Oh, also, RE: your earlier comment of mo vs mlo, I was thinking about it. It's the same as with Serbian, even; you can translate "moja" as either "my" or "mine" like "ovo je moja knjiga" (my) or "ova knjiga je moja" (this book is mine). My tutor confirmed it's the same in Romani, and at least here, mlo vs mo is just dialectic difference, not a matter of mine vs my
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Re: Romani

Postby cHr0mChIk » 2019-02-26, 17:19

SamoSamNina wrote:So are the variant(s) you speak/know more Balkan and Vlax Romani?


The main variant which I speak is the Arli Romani, which is a dialect belonging to the Balkan group. I am acquainted will most other dialect groups grammar-wise, not so much vocabulary-wise, depends. I understand better the dialects with whom I've came into contact more.

The Roma community in here regards the "Macedonian" Romani the purest form of Romani there is, and whenever they try to speak "formally" / "properly" / "eloquently" they tent to speak the Šutka way. The Šutka Arli (Erli) Romani. That is also the language of the vast majority of songs our Roma listen to.

The "Macedonian" Arli Romani vs the "Serbian" Arli doesn't have that many differences, however, Serbian Roma tend to use much more Slavic loanwords than the Šutka brothers, and also Serbian Roma have undergone certain sound changes which the Šutka brothers didn't.. and basically that's why they regard the Šutka Romani as "pure" romani.

Some example is that in Šutka Arli: "vilo" means "heart"; and "vogji" means "soul", while in Serbian Arli they use "srce" and "duša" (both loanwords from Serbian) - "Dukhal man mo srce... mi duša dukhala…"
Another example is that Serbian Arli speakers tend to palatalize "k" and "g" into "ć" and "đ" in some cases, saying "vaćerđum" instead of "vakjergjum" (I spoke) - "jaćha" and "raćha" instead of "jakhja" and "rakhja" ("eyes" and "nights")… The examples are mostly like that.

Our Roma perceive our "Serbian" Arli as "unclean", "polluted" with Serbian words and sound changes. When we speak more formally with each other, we speak in the Šutka way. Also when we speak about certain serious matters such as the Religion.

SamoSamNina wrote:Oh, also, RE: your earlier comment of mo vs mlo, I was thinking about it. It's the same as with Serbian, even; you can translate "moja" as either "my" or "mine" like "ovo je moja knjiga" (my) or "ova knjiga je moja" (this book is mine). My tutor confirmed it's the same in Romani, and at least here, mlo vs mo is just dialectic difference, not a matter of mine vs my



Sorry, I didn't really explain well the "mo" vs "mlo" situation. Basically, at least in Arli Romani, they're not completely equal. It's difficult to explain and establish a certain rule, because we mostly use them by sound. By what sounds correct and what doesn't. But generally, it seems to me that "mo" is used when it appears before the object, and "mlo" is used either after the object, or when there is no object at all:

"Oj tani mi mangli" = "She is my love"
"Tu sijan mo phral" = "You are my brother"
"Tu leljan mi duša" = "You took my soul"

But

"Tu leljan duša mli" = "You took my soul"
"Me sijum tlo" = "I am yours"
"Tu sijan mlo" = "You are mine"

That is at least how I would use these pronouns. :D
وَقَالُوا لَن يَدْخُلَ الْجَنَّةَ إِلَّا مَن كَانَ هُودًا أَوْ نَصَارَىٰ ۗ تِلْكَ أَمَانِيُّهُمْ ۗ قُلْ هَاتُوا بُرْهَانَكُمْ إِن كُنتُمْ صَادِقِينَ
بَلَىٰ مَنْ أَسْلَمَ وَجْهَهُ لِلَّهِ وَهُوَ مُحْسِنٌ فَلَهُ أَجْرُهُ عِندَ رَبِّهِ وَلَا خَوْفٌ عَلَيْهِمْ وَلَا هُمْ يَحْزَنُونَ

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Re: Romani

Postby SamoSamNina » 2019-02-27, 11:38

cHr0mChIk wrote:The Roma community in here regards the "Macedonian" Romani the purest form of Romani there is, and whenever they try to speak "formally" / "properly" / "eloquently" they tent to speak the Šutka way. The Šutka Arli (Erli) Romani. That is also the language of the vast majority of songs our Roma listen to.


I know that my tutor said that Arli here is kind of considered the unofficial standard, but in practice, most people here do actually borrow a fair bit from Macedonian in their day to day conversation. My tutor and his dad do a lot of translating and interpreting so they interact more with Romani variations outside of Macedonia, too, so he tends more towards stuff that doesn't borrow from Macedonian, but that's his personal choice.

cHr0mChIk wrote:Sorry, I didn't really explain well the "mo" vs "mlo" situation. Basically, at least in Arli Romani, they're not completely equal. It's difficult to explain and establish a certain rule, because we mostly use them by sound. By what sounds correct and what doesn't.


Oh yes, that clears things up considerably; it's a great help with learning a language that already has few resources </sarcasm> :lol: haha, my plight here.

cHr0mChIk wrote:But generally, it seems to me that "mo" is used when it appears before the object, and "mlo" is used either after the object, or when there is no object at all:

"Oj tani mi mangli" = "She is my love"
"Tu sijan mo phral" = "You are my brother"
"Tu leljan mi duša" = "You took my soul"

But

"Tu leljan duša mli" = "You took my soul"
"Me sijum tlo" = "I am yours"
"Tu sijan mlo" = "You are mine"

That is at least how I would use these pronouns. :D


Hmm. That's an interesting distinction; I'll pester my tutor and ask him. At least the other day when I asked him, he made it sound like mo/mlo was more dialectic difference more than anything. But all this with a huge grain of salt, as I'm still learning and you know much more than I do. :)
“We are not to simply bandage the wounds of victims beneath the wheels of injustice; we are to drive a spoke into the wheel itself.” Dietrich Bonhoeffer

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Re: Romani

Postby cHr0mChIk » 2019-02-27, 12:27

SamoSamNina wrote:I know that my tutor said that Arli here is kind of considered the unofficial standard, but in practice, most people here do actually borrow a fair bit from Macedonian in their day to day conversation. My tutor and his dad do a lot of translating and interpreting so they interact more with Romani variations outside of Macedonia, too, so he tends more towards stuff that doesn't borrow from Macedonian, but that's his personal choice.


Yes, I am aware that there is a lot of borrowing, however, out of all areas where the Arli is spoken, the Macedonian one seems to have the least (although they have a huge amount as well). If you ever listened to Šutka Romani songs, you'll notice that almost every 3rd word is a Slavic borrowing :lol: :lol:

"Iskreno mangava tut,
Javno vakerava.
Šaj tuke but grešingjum,
Ama tu sa trpingjan,
Me greške uvek učhargjan."

A me but hovavgjum tut,
Oprostin mange, mi romni,
So but rovljargjum tut.
"

But Serbian Arli is even worse:

"Radosno dive alo,
Mo vilo baxtalo.
E divese živini pe,
Čhavo te ženini pe.

Savo divno osećaj,
Akava-i doživljaj.
Ćhel tumanca, mi bori,
Pokažini lepota tli
."

Typical wedding song :lol: :lol: Sorry for quoting songs so much, but recently I've been translating songs from and into Romani, I find it a very good practice, so, I've been exposed to a lot of them :lol: :lol:

Anyway, the thing is, although Macedonian Arli is very "polluted" by other languages, it still is the purest in the region. It has way more of these borrowings in casual speech and in songs, however, they are still able to speak somewhat "pure" Romani, when the situation requires it.

I've had a conversation about it with one Romani friend of mine, who told me he could speak absolutely "pure" Romani, but that would just sound strange, because nobody speaks like that, people would laugh if someone spoke this way casually in a friend environment. Most of these Slavic borrowings can already be said differently using native terms, however, most of the time, the loanword is a simplification.

We even tried it out, speaking "pure" Romani to each other. It was doable, but we bursted out into laughter afterwards :lol: :lol:

For example, one word you'll hear the most commonly used is "me mislinava" (I think) - the actual pure, native way of saying it would be "me dav man godi" - however, just saying "mislinava" instead of this whole phrase is way simpler, and that's why it's used. - That's the main reason why these loanwords are used in the first place.

(Same goes with many other phrases which I've already mentioned before - "me pomožinava" [me dav vasta] - "me razuminava" [me lav to kan] - although there is an alternative - haljovava) - Roma could speak this way, but it would be more appropriately reserved for literature, for example.

Even in these songs… "čačipaske" is the Romani way of saying "iskreno", however, we never use it unironically :lol: The only situation when we may use it unironically may be when quoting some religious quote, from religious scripture such as the Qur'an or the Hadith. The same goes with most other borrowings in these songs. There are alternative ways of saying it, but it wouldn't sound casual.

However, there are even words in these songs where we don't use a borrowing at all - for example, nobody here says "oprostin mange!" - our way of saying this is "ker mange halali!" - however, they still used a borrowing in the song, they probably deemed it to be more appropriate.

SamoSamNina wrote:But all this with a huge grain of salt, as I'm still learning and you know much more than I do. :)


Considering your progress in Macedonian language, I'm sure that in a couple of months, you'll know Romani better than anyone else on this forum
وَقَالُوا لَن يَدْخُلَ الْجَنَّةَ إِلَّا مَن كَانَ هُودًا أَوْ نَصَارَىٰ ۗ تِلْكَ أَمَانِيُّهُمْ ۗ قُلْ هَاتُوا بُرْهَانَكُمْ إِن كُنتُمْ صَادِقِينَ
بَلَىٰ مَنْ أَسْلَمَ وَجْهَهُ لِلَّهِ وَهُوَ مُحْسِنٌ فَلَهُ أَجْرُهُ عِندَ رَبِّهِ وَلَا خَوْفٌ عَلَيْهِمْ وَلَا هُمْ يَحْزَنُونَ

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Re: Romani

Postby SamoSamNina » 2019-02-27, 12:44

cHr0mChIk wrote:Typical wedding song :lol: :lol: Sorry for quoting songs so much, but recently I've been translating songs from and into Romani, I find it a very good practice, so, I've been exposed to a lot of them :lol: :lol:

Anyway, the thing is, although Macedonian Arli is very "polluted" by other languages, it still is the purest in the region. It has way more of these borrowings in casual speech and in songs, however, they are still able to speak somewhat "pure" Romani, when the situation requires it.


no no, it's really helpful! I love music, so the more I find songs that have lyrics I can follow along with, the better. Even the newer, poppier stuff that's not everyone's cup of tea is still something I enjoy listening to (as long as it's not really annoying) just because sometimes I can either perceive the words they're saying or if I find the lyrics. that reminds me, I said i'd make a playlist - I'll get on that today.

cHr0mChIk wrote:I've had a conversation about it with one Romani friend of mine, who told me he could speak absolutely "pure" Romani, but that would just sound strange, because nobody speaks like that, people would laugh if someone spoke this way casually in a friend environment. Most of these Slavic borrowings can already be said differently using native terms, however, most of the time, the loanword is a simplification.

We even tried it out, speaking "pure" Romani to each other. It was doable, but we bursted out into laughter afterwards :lol: :lol:


hahaha, I have a friend back in the US who speaks Hindi, and he and his friends tried the same - speaking just Hindi with no English words interjected...they said they aimed for half an hour but lasted about 5 minutes :lol:

cHr0mChIk wrote:Considering your progress in Macedonian language, I'm sure that in a couple of months, you'll know Romani better than anyone else on this forum


staaaaahppppp :D :oops: haha, more like just wait; if I manage to visit Vojvodina, I'll be like "yooooo zdravo evo me guess who's coming for kafa" :lol: and then pester you with a new question every other sentence.
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Re: Romani

Postby SamoSamNina » 2019-02-27, 12:55

Misc music:

Obviously I know there's more to the traditional greats like Esma and Šaban, but their discography is extensive and known, so I only included the ones that I listen to more frequently. I've also included stuff that I hear regularly around Shutka or from my students.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLNsIoL7LPbqqn34hRaviE8kjImnrUcRtX

Additional ones that aren't on youtube (but if you have like Apple music or something, you can find)

- Shutka Roma Rap (from Shutka)
- GRUBB (Gypsy Roma Urban Balkan Beats) - (from Serbia)
- some stuff by Shantel and Dikanda
- Fanfare Ciocarlia
- misc tallava and other stuff from Denorecords
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Re: Romani

Postby vijayjohn » 2019-02-28, 6:39

I once posted this rap song that I'm pretty sure is from Macedonia, too:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FEQ2LwH9uro
Just a couple of fun facts unrelated to Romani for a moment in case you didn't already know: Esma has a song called "Bojate Bane Buski," which is actually just a butchered version of this old Bollywood song (basically an advertisement for oil lol). Also lately, just in case you're interested, I've been posting a whole bunch of Macedonian (etc.) songs here and here (not so much in Romani yet, though, I'm afraid).
SamoSamNina wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:I had to write a movie review and a term paper for it, both of which I needed to ask him for help with because I had no idea what to write either on. I watched Dom za vešanje (a.k.a. Time of the Gypsies) for the movie review and wrote the term paper on the history of Romani numerals, because Ian pointed out to me that each Romani numeral of Indic origin most closely resembles its equivalent(s) in a different Indic language or set of languages. For example, jekh in Romani resembles its Hindi equivalent ek, but duj is a bit different from Hindi do (although at least Vlax Romani also has do in oblique case) and much more similar to the Bengali equivalent dui.


Oooh, yes that one. I'm still working my way through it, though everyone I know who's mentioned it seems to really like it. It's on youtube and I'm about halfway now, though the plot just doesn't seem to really speak to me enough to motivate me to finish...I will eventually.

To be honest, Ian and I aren't big fans of it, either, and my review of it was basically picking apart the way that Roma are characterized in it. :P Ian himself once wrote a review of it where he pointed out that the plot was actually inspired by a documentary about Romani children being exploited (in a prostitution ring run by gadže), so it was a pretty farcical treatment of a rather serious but underrated issue.
Aaaaaand can I maybe get a copy of said thesis perhaps? hmm? :yep:

Sure! I was going to send it to you in private but then decided to attach it to this post instead in case anyone else is interested as well. :)
cHr0mChIk wrote:Regarding the Romani dialects of Macedonia, I have a lot of materials, however, most of them are in German language. Do you understand German? If you do, I could send you, and recommend you some really good works where pretty much all dialects spoken in this area are covered.


I don't understand German, howeverrrrr I have a friend who is in Kochani and plays music with some Roma musicians there, and my friend has a PhD in Germanics and is interested enough in Romani that if I sent him said materials, he'd probably help me work through them - so sure, I'd take some recommendations!

Maybe I could help you through them, too, because I also know German. :)
cHr0mChIk wrote:"Panda" means "still". Like Serbian "još", or Macedonian "ušte". Since you're not acquainted with this word, is there any alternative you use instead?


I didn't use it because I didn't know it, haha, but my tutor said that 'panda' is used here too.

Pretty sure panda is from Greek btw. :)
hahaha, I have a friend back in the US who speaks Hindi, and he and his friends tried the same - speaking just Hindi with no English words interjected...they said they aimed for half an hour but lasted about 5 minutes :lol:

That's basically every Indian language now. :P You reminded me of a Telugu movie where the heroine asks the hero, entirely in Telugu, why his Telugu is so weird. Then he replies, entirely in English, "Hey, come on. Telugu is my mother tongue. I know Telugu very well!" and she challenges him, again entirely in Telugu, to talk only in Telugu for one minute. He borrows a DVD of an old movie from a friend, then calls him up and says, "I told you to get me a Telugu DVD! Why'd you give me a foreign-language one instead?" :lol:
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Re: Romani

Postby SamoSamNina » 2019-02-28, 13:23

Oooh I hadn't heard that song yet - thanks for sharing! I'll take all of your music suggestions, haha.

vijayjohn wrote:To be honest, Ian and I aren't big fans of it, either, and my review of it was basically picking apart the way that Roma are characterized in it. :P Ian himself once wrote a review of it where he pointed out that the plot was actually inspired by a documentary about Romani children being exploited (in a prostitution ring run by gadže), so it was a pretty farcical treatment of a rather serious but underrated issue.


huh. interesting. now I might actually finish it, haha.

vijayjohn wrote:Maybe I could help you through them, too, because I also know German. :)


PLEASE, all the help, haha. besides, you're actually interested in the content. my friend wouldn't mind, but he has a PhD in Germanics and is mildly interested in Romani, but more so just in passing -- the Roma in his part of Macedonia (and most of eastern Macedonia in general) actually speak Turkish, not Romani, so while he plays music with some Roma guys in his town, Romani doesn't serve him much. So yes please, all the help with German. I can't really be bothered to care much about anything Germanic (except Norwegian/Swedish, because of my heritage...but I took one quarter of Norwegian and got bored, so I went back to Turkish :lol: )

vijayjohn wrote:Pretty sure panda is from Greek btw. :)


There's enough Greek floating around in Balkan Romani that I might have to make myself learn Greek eventually too...

vijayjohn wrote:That's basically every Indian language now. :P You reminded me of a Telugu movie


my goal in life :lol:

vijayjohn wrote:where the heroine asks the hero, entirely in Telugu, why his Telugu is so weird. Then he replies, entirely in English, "Hey, come on. Telugu is my mother tongue. I know Telugu very well!" and she challenges him, again entirely in Telugu, to talk only in Telugu for one minute. He borrows a DVD of an old movie from a friend, then calls him up and says, "I told you to get me a Telugu DVD! Why'd you give me a foreign-language one instead?" :lol:


hahahaha that's hilarious. I've only seen one Telugu film, and this sounds oddly normal and on par for the course.
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Re: Romani

Postby vijayjohn » 2019-03-02, 5:53

SamoSamNina wrote:Oooh I hadn't heard that song yet - thanks for sharing! I'll take all of your music suggestions, haha.

In that case, maybe I'll post another Romani song! I actually posted this with my proposed translation years ago in the songs thread, but the video link is dead now, so here it is again. It's "Tutti Frutti" from the Tony Gatlif movie Gadjo Dilo. It's in a variety of Romani spoken in Romania as far as I can tell:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JE_ErLSLEZI
The lyrics (apparently) with my best shot at a translation:

Tutti frutti te khelas!
Te khelas; te giljabas
Le Romenca te mangas!

Či džanav so te kerav.
Pàla late me merav!

Sa o Roma, daje, khelela;
Sa o Roma, daje, von pilena.

Miri Romni si šukar
Sar e lulugi daj bar (??).
Miri Romni si brunèto
'Aj si maj bari talènto.
Let's dance tutti frutti!
Let's dance; let's sing
With the Roma if we want!

I don't know what to do.
I'm dying for her!

All the Roma, oh mother, she's(?) dancing;
All the Roma, mother, they're drinking.

My wife's as beautiful
As the flower on the fence(??).
My wife's a brunette
And she's the greatest talent.

I've always been confused by the daj bar part, but the rest seems pretty understandable to me.
There's enough Greek floating around in Balkan Romani that I might have to make myself learn Greek eventually too...

All varieties of Romani have some Greek in them; even the grammar is partly from Greek. Romani has been influenced by Greek so much that it's likely that the ancestors of the Roma spent a considerable amount of time in the Byzantine Empire (where Greek was the official language) before moving further west.
hahahaha that's hilarious. I've only seen one Telugu film, and this sounds oddly normal and on par for the course.

Lol yeah, it kind of is. :D

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Re: Romani

Postby SamoSamNina » 2019-03-03, 15:15

Thanks for the song! I'll add it to my playlist. I should start keeping track of songs that I have translations for and work on those a bit.

vijayjohn wrote:All varieties of Romani have some Greek in them; even the grammar is partly from Greek. Romani has been influenced by Greek so much that it's likely that the ancestors of the Roma spent a considerable amount of time in the Byzantine Empire (where Greek was the official language) before moving further west.


That makes sense. I just figured I'd eventually get to Greek so I can tackle all the Balkan languages, but now it seems even more sensible to tackle sometime.
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