Romani

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loqu
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Re: Romani

Postby loqu » 2009-01-24, 15:51

As far as I know, Spanish gipsies don't speak Romani but Caló, which is a creole made of Spanish grammar and Romani vocabulary, so I don't think they are intelligible with gipsies from other places in Europe. But I think Alejo or anybody else can say more about it.
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Re: Romani

Postby eskandar » 2009-01-24, 16:49

"Pikey" is a racist slur, please refrain from using it.
Please correct my mistakes in any language.

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Re: Romani

Postby ''' » 2009-01-26, 0:50

I've never heard anyone, not even brits use anything else. What's the "PC" version?
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Re: Romani

Postby eskandar » 2009-01-26, 4:39

Well I can't imagine there are many Roma in Australia. Hearing a bunch of non-Roma use it isn't really an excuse. Pikey is a very offensive word and it's very commonly known to be so; it's not a matter of being "PC" any more than knowing that Jews don't like being called kikes is "PC." (I use this analogy because the words 'pikey' and 'kike' have similar histories). If you bothered to read this thread at all, you would see that Rom/Roma/Romani are the preferred terms. Gypsy is considered offensive by many, but it's still more acceptable than pikey, which is not acceptable at all.
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Re: Romani

Postby peterlin » 2009-01-26, 7:52

''' wrote:I've never heard anyone, not even brits use anything else. What's the "PC" version?


I keep telling myself to ignore your (faux-?)-naive racism (btw, are you really that ignorant, or just trying to rile us, 'the pc mob' ?) but sometimes it's just too much fun.

1. 'pikey' is surely not a word to use in decent company. OED calls it derogatory, Wikipedia -for all its worth- says it's pejorative, when someone uses it on British TV there are complaints and investigations. Google is all willing to tell you all that and more if you have a spare 10 sec.

2. Were it not a (racist) slur, it would still be useless in the context of this discussion, because, it is used to refer to Roma, to Irish Travellers, or, frankly, to anyone living in a trailer. Speaking of 'pikeys' as a linguistic community makes as much sense as talking about, say, "white trash dialects".

3. As for your cross-variety intelligiblity question... well, it had been already answered before you asked it. See Alejo's post 2008-04-17 23:38

***
To contribute something constructive to this thread:

In Poland there are at least four distinct Roma communities, each having their own distinct dialect (or a set of dialects), but the degree of mutual intelligiblity seems high.

Two of these communities are relatively recent immigrants from Hungary (which in this case could've meant "anywhere in the former Hungarian Kingdom", most probably Transylvania/Slovakia): Keldari and Lovari.
Then, in Krakow's environs we have Bergitka Roma who have traditionally been a sedentary community (all the other communities were forced to settle down by the then Gov't only in 1960s).
Lastly, there's so called Polska Roma, by fair the biggest and the most 'visible' one. AFAIK they are the ones behind the World Roma Congresses in Serock etc.

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Re: Romani

Postby ''' » 2009-01-26, 18:13

peterlin wrote:
''' wrote:I've never heard anyone, not even brits use anything else. What's the "PC" version?


I keep telling myself to ignore your (faux-?)-naive racism (btw, are you really that ignorant, or just trying to rile us, 'the pc mob' ?) but sometimes it's just too much fun.

1. 'pikey' is surely not a word to use in decent company. OED calls it derogatory, Wikipedia -for all its worth- says it's pejorative, when someone uses it on British TV there are complaints and investigations. Google is all willing to tell you all that and more if you have a spare 10 sec.

2. Were it not a (racist) slur, it would still be useless in the context of this discussion, because, it is used to refer to Roma, to Irish Travellers, or, frankly, to anyone living in a trailer. Speaking of 'pikeys' as a linguistic community makes as much sense as talking about, say, "white trash dialects".

3. As for your cross-variety intelligiblity question... well, it had been already answered before you asked it. See Alejo's post 2008-04-17 23:38



I decided to skip the bit about PC because it would draw a lengthy and unproductive debate. Long story short: I'm not here to rile ppl up. I never go out of my way to cause offense or shock, but neither do I go out of my way to ensure that I use the latest accepted terms.

Peterlin, you really need to stop drawing such heavy connections between not being PC and being racist. A lot of people are not as PC as you and yet we aren't racist. I don't judge someone's worth by their race, nor treat them any differently, but if I wanted to, I could be the biggest racist bigot you've met, without using a single "offensive" word. Like Emandir, who used language on the sexual orientation thread which nearly made me call for a mod, 'til I realised he's gay.

That being said, while I use roma to describe gypsies in a lot of contexts (cigány having developed its own flavour of meaning) and nearly exclusively when talking about the language, I was under the impression that the uk gypsies were not quite the same ethnic group, but rather a related sub-group, in the way mormons are not /quite/ christian like the others (catholic, protestant, evangelical) even though they believe in Jesus, because they also have another testament. I was trying to specify that particular (sub-)group for which I still have not heard an alternative, since all the rom- derivatives can be, and are applied to hungarian gypsies as well. (EDIT: It seems their own name for themselves is "Romanichal", we going with this one?)

moving back to the language itself, how big is the "root romani lexicon"? And how much variation is there within the Kalderash dialect? in hungary the romani based word for girl is csaj (chay) not shey (It should be noted we use it in Hungarian slang too). Is this a usual level of difference?
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Re: Romani

Postby peterlin » 2009-01-27, 7:50

''' wrote: Long story short: I'm not here to rile ppl up. I never go out of my way to cause offense or shock, but neither do I go out of my way to ensure that I use the latest accepted terms.


No one expects that of you. It's not a matter of political correctness or being en vogue, but of elementary politeness. Where I was brought up using ethnic slurs works fine if you want to pick a fight, but has no place in polite conversation.

What happened here is just you've been told twice that "pikey" is a racist slur and asked to refrain from using it. I haven't seen anyone objecting to your use of "gypsy", even though, in some PC, circles it is questioned. The point is - sorry for repeating that - that "pikey" is not a word like "gypsy". It's a word like "kike" or "slant" or "nigger".

Peterlin, you really need to stop drawing such heavy connections between not being PC and being racist. A lot of people are not as PC as you and yet we aren't racist.


Sigh... I wish you put that PC strawman to rest. Were it just for this thread I would've shrugged it off, but it's not the first instance (recall our "conversation" on Aboriginal Australians?) where your words are smelling of racism of which you seem to be unaware. And it's not my oversensitivity either - they smell the same to at least two different people who had challenged you publicly.

Now, I have no reason not to believe you in that the whole matter is of an unfortunate choice of words rather that putting on public display what's hidden deep inside you. In fact I wouldn't talk to you if I didn't believe you on that.

Could you, knowing that what you say may be subject for overinterpretation by the likes of me, think more of your wording? Maybe check the terms you use to refer to people against a dictionary (hint: if it says 'derogatory' or 'pejorative' don't use it lest you be misunderstood)? Think of it as a friendly advice.

While we are at advices - please read the whole conversation before joing in to ask questions as they may well had been answered.

I was under the impression that the uk gypsies were not quite the same ethnic group, but rather a related sub-group,


Eh, "uk gypsies" as you gently put it, are not a single group. The label "gypsy" (or "pikey", for that matter) can be applied to the Romanichal / Romany Folk, the Kale, the recent migrant communities from Central Europe, the Irish and Scottish Travellers etc. (not to forget Brad Pitt :)) They all have different backgrounds, they all speak different languages, they all are "not quite the same ethnic group".

moving back to the language itself, how big is the "root romani lexicon"? And how much variation is there within the Kalderash dialect? in hungary the romani based word for girl is csaj (chay) not shey (It should be noted we use it in Hungarian slang too). Is this a usual level of difference?


It is /tSaj/ as well in varieties spoken in Poland.

A lot of cross-Romani info is to be found here. Used to be, at least - I'm at work now and the site won't open.

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Re: Romani

Postby gothwolf » 2009-02-09, 20:49

Today I bought myself very interesting book - "Практически курс по цигански език" ("Practical course in Romani" - there are 31 lessons with texts, grammar explanations and exercises but all is written in Cyrillic alphabet. Well, I'm not sure which the dialect is but it must be Balkan Romani (because the book is based on the dialect of Bulgarian gypsies). So, I could post some lessons, too if you want. :roll:

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Re: Romani

Postby Dawid » 2010-02-14, 20:51

my friend has a site with a short poem translated into 250 langs, he has two romani translations, could somebody check if they're correct?

1
O muj trijo andre a o paho
Li si po-latcho muro dila
Numa kerasar trushuj das ma mrtik
Li si agoruno muro kamav tut !

=
2
Tut ke dikhav ande paho
Mri gilutni may chukâr hi
Numa tut ker sikêder soske nachadjôl la
Mânge o palunô "kamâv tu" hi!


here's the site:
http://pouemes.free.fr/poesie/poema-traducciones.htm
could you also check if the audio is correct?
we'd be grateful
thank you in advance ;)

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Re: Romani

Postby lisenushka » 2011-03-31, 17:01

Zurales kamav ke pisos kade uroke rromani grammatikjate. But lashi uroke!
Ale soske chi phendes katar le uroke ljan? Pisos tu sar pe kerdjan. Vi si man knishka katar kade uroke. Na manges te des o kredito kasti ka kerdas?

Aj, nu chi shim rromni. Bushav Alisa, Ukrajinka sim ale beshav ande Florida.
Ilustracije thaj komiks pe rroma kerav me. Kado soske interesisardjom pe e kultura thaj muzika rromenge.

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Re: Romani

Postby jake12 » 2011-05-06, 0:22

Does anyone here know the lyrics and translation to the song "Lela Pala Tute"? I think its a Romani folk song, although I've only heard Gogol Bordelllo's version. Also, if this thread isn't completely dead, I'd love more lessons. I find Romani interesting because my great-grandmother was Romani.

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Re: Romani

Postby lisenushka » 2011-08-23, 3:25

"Pala tute" isn't a folk song, it's an original Gogol Bordello song, which Eugene wrote.

The Romani in the song is:

Lela lela lela
Lela pala tute
Džas kana meres
Merava pala late

which translates to:

Lela lela lela (not words)
Lela after you
You go, when you die
I'm dying after her

Which figuratively is like "I'm dying for her/you", as in a love sense.

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Re: Romani

Postby lisenushka » 2011-08-29, 3:47

Sastjipe~!

Varekon inka hramol kathe? Kam mangav me te praktisarav romanes :) Cirra hramosardjom po rusijako forumo, ale mande phares te hakhjarav o dijalekto le rusijake Romenge. Ale vone phenen ma te hramov maj mishto le cirra shonestar pale. Kana gindij ke mishto.

Devlesa,
E Aliska

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Re: Romani

Postby toksave » 2011-12-26, 23:35

another romani lesson please!

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Romani language

Postby Romaninet » 2012-04-26, 8:23

Hello all,

Recently a new site has appeared. It is dedicated to the learning of Romani language, it is a beginner's course (levels A1 and A2 conforming to the European Languages Framework). It is fun to use, with dialogues and fun exercises. And more, it is for free, so anyone can use it!

http://www.romaninet.com

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Re: Romani language

Postby linguoboy » 2012-04-26, 14:41

Which variety of Romani is that?
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Re: Romani language

Postby ffrench » 2012-04-26, 17:51

I'm presuming a form of Balkan Romani, as evidenced by the Bulgarian and Romanian options on the interface, but it's not Bugurdži, as Wikipedia has Sar isi to anav? for 'What is your name?' where Romaninet has Sar si tjiro anav?. However, Googling Sar isi to anav? does get no results.

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Re: Romani language

Postby linguoboy » 2012-04-26, 18:07

ffrench wrote:I'm presuming a form of Balkan Romani, as evidenced by the Bulgarian and Romanian options on the interface, but it's not Bugurdži, as Wikipedia has Sar isi to anav? for 'What is your name?' where Romaninet has Sar si tjiro anav?. However, Googling Sar isi to anav? does get no results.

Vlax is what I would've expected, since that seems to be the most popular variety in teaching materials. Tjiro is the Kalderash Romani for "your".
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Re: Romani language

Postby Struthiomimus » 2012-04-26, 20:46

Romaninet wrote:Hello all,

Recently a new site has appeared. It is dedicated to the learning of Romani language, it is a beginner's course (levels A1 and A2 conforming to the European Languages Framework). It is fun to use, with dialogues and fun exercises. And more, it is for free, so anyone can use it!

http://www.romaninet.com


\o/

This rocks! :wow: I can't wait till all the lessons are finished. (Hope funding lasts...)

ffrench wrote:I'm presuming a form of Balkan Romani, as evidenced by the Bulgarian and Romanian options on the interface, but it's not Bugurdži, as Wikipedia has Sar isi to anav? for 'What is your name?' where Romaninet has Sar si tjiro anav?. However, Googling Sar isi to anav? does get no results.


linguoboy wrote:Vlax is what I would've expected, since that seems to be the most popular variety in teaching materials. Tjiro is the Kalderash Romani for "your".


Ya Shabaab, if yinz check out the grammar section of Unit 3, it shows a comparison between Lovara, Kalderaš and Gurbet Romani:

http://www.romaninet.com/course/romaninet_unit_3.html

And then it talks about "Kaldarasi" Roma here (Cultural Information section):

http://www.romaninet.com/course/romaninet_unit_1.html

Also, "tyo" is the short form of "tíro" in Kalderash. And in some Kalderash dialects, "tíro" becomes "kíro" or "chíro," so there's a lot of variation.
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Re: Romani language

Postby Romaninet » 2012-04-27, 8:14

The dialect is Generic Vlax...and shows some variations from the groups from Eastern Europe


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