Jamtlandic (Jamsk'/Jamske)

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Hunef
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Postby Hunef » 2006-05-12, 17:16

Amikeco wrote:Just a short remark: printed italic "æ" and "œ" are hard to distinguish with many fonts. :?

Test: æ œ

Okay, here it works, though you have to get used to the little difference. ;)

I know this, but it is equally difficult to tell apart I and l in some fonts. (I can't tell them apart in my browser, at least. Can you?) One usually know from the context which letter is used. :wink:
I used to have ǿ in my orthography, but I realised it doesn't look as nice as œ in some browser, and it is a more unusual character and may be unknown in some people's browsers etc. I want a compatibility with current computers. Later, I may switch to ǿ again. When I do that, I could perhaps also switch ę to æ and æ to ǽ. Then I would have a very nice symmetry in my orthography and still be etymological anyway since standardised Old Norse may use either version. After a switch, one would have the alphabet:

    Aa Áá Bb Dd Ðð Ee Ëë Éé Ff Gg Hh Ii Íí Jj Kk Ll Mm Nn
    Oo Óó Pp Rr Ss Tt Uu Úú Vv Yy Ÿÿ Ýý Ææ Ǽǽ Øø Ǿǿ


instead. (The last four letters don't look symmetric in my browser in this font.)
Last edited by Hunef on 2006-05-12, 17:28, edited 1 time in total.
But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.
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Postby Nukalurk » 2006-05-12, 17:27

Hunef wrote:I know this, but it is equally difficult to tell apart I and l in some fonts.


I see the difference here but with some fonts not, that's true.

As I have realized, "æ" and "œ" are distinguishable. You are definitely right that it is better to use that letter, if you want your characters to be typable by most computers.

In fact, I also somehow like the shape of "œ". ;)


Edit: The alphabet you have posted right now looks very nice but some characters are not accessable to all, and convincing others to use an alphabet they can hardly type, is not that easy. :(

(Which browser do you use? They appear to be fine here.)
Last edited by Nukalurk on 2006-05-12, 17:30, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Hunef » 2006-05-12, 17:30

Amikeco wrote:
Hunef wrote:I know this, but it is equally difficult to tell apart I and l in some fonts.


I see the difference here but with some fonts not, that's true.

As I have realized, "æ" and "œ" are distinguishable. You are definitely right that it is better to use that letter, if you want your characters to be typable by most computers.

In fact, I also somehow like the shape of "œ". ;)


Me too, though it may be to "big" in some fonts (especially the capital letter).
But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.
Carl Sagan

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Postby Nukalurk » 2006-05-12, 17:34

Hunef wrote:Me too, though it may be to "big" in some fonts (especially the capital letter).


It can't be "bigger" than Æ, or can it? :?

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Postby Hunef » 2006-05-12, 17:51

Amikeco wrote:
Hunef wrote:Me too, though it may be to "big" in some fonts (especially the capital letter).


It can't be "bigger" than Æ, or can it? :?


Hmmm, Æ Œ, which is biggest. Subjectively, it feels like the latter is bigger, but scientifically, it may be the opposite. :D
But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.
Carl Sagan

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Postby Hunef » 2006-05-14, 0:04

Here are the next few letters:

B:
Pronunced [b]: beðlenn [ˈbeˑ`ˌɽən] n. 'patience' (only found in North Norse, from ONN biðlund)
Pronunced [bː]: stubb' [stʰɞ`ɞbː] n. 'stump'

D:
Pronunced [d]: dętt' [dɛ`ɛtː] v. 'fall heavily'
Pronunced [dː]: dd [rædː] adj. 'afraid'
Pronunced [ð]: slada [l̥aˑ`ða] n. 'sledge'

Ð:
Pronunced [ ]: ð' [biː`i] v. 'wait'
Pronunced [ɣ]: bouð [bɞɵːɣ] v. imperf. 'offered'
Pronunced [ʋ]: souð [sɞɵːʋ] n. 'sheep'

E (soft vowel):
Pronunced [eˑ]: len [leˑn] adj. 'mild, smooth'
Pronunced [e]: vet [ʋetː] n. 'wit, understanding'

Ë (hard vowel):
Pronunced [eˑ]: skëkin [skʰeˑ`tʃɪn] adj. 'shaken'

É (soft vowel):
Pronunced [jeː]: éling [jeː`ɽɪŋ] n. 'small storm'
Pronunced [je]: létt [jetː] adj. 'light, low-weighted'
Pronunced [eː]: kné [kneː] n. 'knee'
Pronunced [e]: tétt [tʃʰetː] adj. 'dense'
(This vowel was earlier pronunced [ɪeː] which explains the examples above. This is in common with the dialects in Trøndelag, Norway. It's also the Icelandic pronunciation of the same letter.)

F:
Pronunced [f]: fœðnisk [føː´nɪsk] adj. 'very old'
Pronunced [fː]: ff [nøfː] int. 'oink' (pig's sound)
(The long 'f' mainly for interjections and borrowed words from Low German.)

More letters to come later...
But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.
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óðinn
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Similarities between jamska and österbottniska

Postby óðinn » 2006-05-14, 16:53

http://web.telia.com/~u63501054/Austerbottn.html

This might interest some of you.

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Re: Similarities between jamska and österbottniska

Postby Hunef » 2006-05-14, 19:53

óðinn wrote:http://web.telia.com/~u63501054/Austerbottn.html

This might interest some of you.

I know the author of the article and have met him a couple of times. The problem is that he didn't realise that there's a huge sea of dialects sharing the similarities described in the article. There's no special linguistic connection between Oustrbutn and Jamtlann, trust me! :)
But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.
Carl Sagan

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Re: The Alphabet of Jamtlandic

Postby Priscian » 2006-05-15, 2:51

Hunef wrote:Since my alphabet for Jamtlandic has converged into something real and stable now, I'll give a presentation of it here in this thread.

The alphabet of Jamtlandic is the following one:

    Aa Áá Bb Dd Ðð Ee Ëë Éé Ff Gg Hh Ii Íí Jj Kk Ll Mm Nn
    Oo Óó Pp Rr Ss Tt Uu Úú Vv Yy Ÿÿ Ýý Ęę Ææ Øø Œœ



This is a great start and definitely in the correct direction. Let's adapt it for all Jamtsk' texts!
Arma virumque cano

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Postby Nukalurk » 2006-05-15, 6:37

Hunef, Middle High German also used Æ and Œ, so it doesn't seem to have caused problems. :wink:

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Postby óðinn » 2006-05-15, 17:48

Vilka? Skånsk? Gutamål? Norrländska?

Om ens hälften av sambanden som Bo räknar upp stämmer så är det ju ganska häftigt.

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Re: The Alphabet of Jamtlandic

Postby Hunef » 2006-05-15, 20:21

Priscian wrote:
Hunef wrote:Since my alphabet for Jamtlandic has converged into something real and stable now, I'll give a presentation of it here in this thread.

The alphabet of Jamtlandic is the following one:

    Aa Áá Bb Dd Ðð Ee Ëë Éé Ff Gg Hh Ii Íí Jj Kk Ll Mm Nn
    Oo Óó Pp Rr Ss Tt Uu Úú Vv Yy Ÿÿ Ýý Ęę Ææ Øø Œœ



This is a great start and definitely in the correct direction. Let's adapt it for all Jamtsk' texts!

Indeed, I am working on it! :wink:
But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.
Carl Sagan

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Postby Hunef » 2006-05-15, 20:24

Amikeco wrote:Hunef, Middle High German also used Æ and Œ, so it doesn't seem to have caused problems. :wink:

Didn't one use 'AE' and 'OE', respectively? (And 'UE'.) Through some graphical simplification process, they somehow became 'Ä' and 'Ö', respectively. (And 'Ü'.)
But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.
Carl Sagan

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Postby Nukalurk » 2006-05-15, 20:35

Everyone could write as wanted, so I guess both forms were in use. Some centuries ago, the ü had been written like "u" with a small "e" above it.

Here is a sample of the introductory paragraph of "Gregorius" by Hartmann von Aue.

der gnâden ellende
hât danne den bœsern teil erkorn.
und wære áber er geborn
von Adâme mit Abêle
und solde im sîn sêle
weren âne sünden slac
unz an den jungesten tac,
sô hæte er niht ze vil gegeben
umbe daz êwige leben
daz anegenges niht enhât
und ouch niemer zegât.
Last edited by Nukalurk on 2006-05-15, 20:40, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Hunef » 2006-05-15, 20:40

Next few letters:

G:
Pronunced [g]: gás [goːs] n. 'goose'
Pronunced [ggː]: gg [ʋɛgː] n. 'wall'
Pronunced [ɣ]: vaga [ʋaˑ`ɣa] v. 'weigh'
Pronunced [j] (in fr. of soft vow.): geit [jeɪːt] n. 'goat'
Pronunced [ ]: tókug [tʰuː`kɵ] adj. 'crazy'
(Note the special combinations gj-, -ngj- and -ggj- which are [j], [dʒ] and [dʒː], respectively. Examples: gjara [jaˑ`ɾa] v. 'do'; tingj [tʰɪɲ´dʒə] n. def. 'the thing'; ggjen [ʋɛdʒː´ən] n. def. 'the wall'.)

H:
Pronunced [h]: huvuð [hɵˑ`vɵ] n. 'head'
Pronunced [ ]: hvonn [ʋɞnː] pron. 'every, each'
(Note the special combination hj- pronunced [j]. Example: hjęrt' [jæ`æʈː] n. 'heart'.)

I (soft vowel):
Pronunced [ɪˑ]: rivin [rɪˑ`vɪn] adj. 'torn'
Pronunced [ɪ]: kipp' [tʃʰɪ`ɪpː] v. 'put on [shoes] quickly'
(Note that in words of the type -iCi-, e.g. rivin adj. 'torn', ridið v. sup. 'ridden' etc., the pronunciation [-ɪˑCɪ-] is highly normalised. Today, only a few dialects (western ones) have this pronunciation. Most of the actual dialects instead have [-eˑCɪ-], [-eˑCe-] etc.)

Í (soft vowel):
Pronunced [iː]: ís [iːs] n. 'ice'
Pronunced [i]: fínt [fint] adv. 'elegantly'
(Actually, there's a difference in pronunciation quality here; the short [i] is in quality between the long [iː] and the short [ɪ] for i.)

J:
Pronunced [j]: jamn [jamn] adj. 'even, smooth'
(Assimilated in various ways in combinations like gj, hj, kj, lj etc. and thus making the preceding consonant appear soft or silent.)

K:
Pronunced [k]: káll' [kʰɔ`ɔlː] v. 'call'
Pronunced [kː]: kk [bɛkː] n. 'creek'
Pronunced [tʃ] (in fr. of soft vow.): kær [tʃʰeːɾ] adj. 'in love, beloved'
(Note that the special combination -kkj- is pronunced [tʃː]. Example: kkjen [bɛtʃːən] n. def. 'the creek'.)

Next session I'll start dealing with the rather complex consonant L.
We will be at least half-way through the alphabet after next session!
Last edited by Hunef on 2006-05-23, 21:43, edited 2 times in total.
But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.
Carl Sagan

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Postby Hunef » 2006-05-15, 21:35

óðinn wrote:Vilka? Skånsk? Gutamål? Norrländska?

Om ens hälften av sambanden som Bo räknar upp stämmer så är det ju ganska häftigt.

Man kan säga att västerbottniska är den "felande länken" mellan jämtska och österbottniska. Österbottniska och västerbottniska är mycket mer lika varann än österbottniska och jämtska. Jämtska, västerbottniska och österbottniska delar alla de beskriva likheterna i Bos artikel. Faktum är att Jämtska och västerbottniska är mer lika än jämtska och österbottniska.

Bo skriver: "När vi sedan finner att Medelpad (runt nuv Sundsvall) saknar norrönt språk, men det återfinns på andra sidan vattnet i Österbotten, kan förklaringen vara att den norröna befolkningen som fanns i Medelpad av någon anledning flyttat över vattnet dit." Snarare är det så att mycket av uppsvenskan spritt sig upp till Medelpad och i viss mån ända upp till Ångermanland, men jag tror inte på att det området hade en norsktalande befolkning som av någon anledning var tvungen att helt sonika flytta över Bottenhavet till Österbotten. Men det handlar helt klart om ett stört dialektkontinuum pga uppsvenskt inflytande. (Om man nu kan prata om ett dialektkontinuum över ett innanhav.)

En mer trolig förklaring är att norra Skandinavien hade sin egen variant av nordgermanska. Liksom det fanns väst- och östskandinaviska, så fanns det (ett mindre tydligt språkområde än de förra) nordskandinaviska som talades från Tröndelag i väst till Österbotten i öst, men inte längre söderut än Tröndelags och Österbottens gränser mot syd. Detta språk är det som talades av bl.a. den mäktige hövdingen man funnit i Högom utanför Sundsvall. Av någon anledning har nordskandinaviskan i Medelpad trängts undan i hög grad av uppsvenskan. I Tröndelag och Jämtland står nordskandinaviskan som starkast idag. (Läs mer här.)
But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.
Carl Sagan

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Postby einhar » 2006-05-16, 22:59

Congratulation Hunef.
Til hamingju Húnefur.

Thanks to you that I've seen my native language closest relative.
Þakka þér fyrir að hafa sýnt mér það tungumál sem skyldast er mínu móðurmáli.
Sat þar á haugi
ok sló hörpu
gýgjar hirðir
glaðr Egðir;
gól um hánum
í gaglviði
fagrrauðr hani,
sá er Fjalarr heitir.

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Postby Priscian » 2006-05-17, 2:04

Re: Reception of an etymological orthography

The reason why English has not collapsed into different languages (personal opinion) is that its users and speakers have adhered to an etymological orthography, which has brought about an unparalleled unity. If English speakers were to embark on localized spelling(s) there would be numerous languages, e.g. Hibernian-English and Southern American in their colloquial varieties. When users employ a phonetic spelling (influenced by a major language) the language in question breaks up into almost unintelligible forms, e.g. Rhaeto-Romansch, Low German, Provencal, etc.

It is important to adopt orthographic conventions that show historical continuance to give legitimacy to the language. Jamtsk' would do well to initially steer towards Old Norse to create this legitimacy and shape a historical continuance, both which are needed for solid language development.

The initial reception of an etymological normalization by its users may be indifference, but over time the users will see the practical as well the aesthetic reasons for it.
Arma virumque cano



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Postby Travis B. » 2006-05-17, 7:40

Priscian wrote:Re: Reception of an etymological orthography

The reason why English has not collapsed into different languages (personal opinion) is that its users and speakers have adhered to an etymological orthography, which has brought about an unparalleled unity. If English speakers were to embark on localized spelling(s) there would be numerous languages, e.g. Hibernian-English and Southern American in their colloquial varieties.


The matter is just that English has simply not had the time to undergo sufficient dialect divergence to yet go the route that Latin, Middle Chinese, Arabic, Quechua, and Nahuatl, as some examples, have already gone. Orthography is not stopping the dialect divergence already taking place within English one bit, but rather is simply masking its presence at the literary level. It is quite conceivable that in the relative near future (a couple to few centuries) English will lose crossintelligibility across its whole even if literate English-speakers still use the same written language.

Priscian wrote:When users employ a phonetic spelling (influenced by a major language) the language in question breaks up into almost unintelligible forms, e.g. Rhaeto-Romansch, Low German, Provencal, etc.


When you mention Low German, you must remember that the split between the High German and Low German (in the proper sense, i.e. including Dutch and Afrikaans) dialects occurred prior to any widespread use of writing. Thus, one cannot say that such was due to the use of "phonetic writing" at all.

As for the breakup of Latin into separate languages, such as the aforementioned Rhaeto-Romansch and Occitan (often called Provençal), one must remember that this applied to the Vulgar Latin spoken by the general population, and really was not affected at all by the formal Classical Latin, despite its status as a single formal standard for literary Latin. Consequently, this is just one more example of why simply having a clear fixed standard would do much at all to prevent dialect divergence in the long run.

Priscian wrote:It is important to adopt orthographic conventions that show historical continuance to give legitimacy to the language. Jamtsk' would do well to initially steer towards Old Norse to create this legitimacy and shape a historical continuance, both which are needed for solid language development.


In the hypothetical case of English orthographic reform, it would be wise to follow similar principles, but such would be more a matter of trying to create a single unified orthography for a wide range of disparate dialects while simultaneously dodging many of the political issues that would be linked to such. In such a case, I myself would suggest reconstructing the pronunciation of the English dialects spoken at the latest point the large-scale phonological splits (e.g. rhotic versus non-rhotic) shown in English today are not present to any significant degree, and then from these reconstructed dialects creating a weighted average based on how significant their features are in English dialects today. From such a weighted average a new orthography would be created on phonemic principles. Such might not at all visually resemble any past English orthography, but it would be sound methodologically from a diachronic viewpoint.

Erratum: synchronic has been changed to diachronic.
Last edited by Travis B. on 2006-05-17, 22:20, edited 1 time in total.
secretGeek on CodingHorror wrote:Type inference is not a gateway drug to more dynamically typed languages.

Rather "var" is a gateway drug toward "real" type inferencing, of which var is but a tiny cigarette to the greater crack mountain!

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Postby Hunef » 2006-05-17, 15:24

einhar wrote:Congratulation Hunef.
Til hamingju Húnefur.

Thanks to you that I've seen my native language closest relative.
Þakka þér fyrir að hafa sýnt mér það tungumál sem skyldast er mínu móðurmáli.


I think Faroese is the closest relative to Icelandic, don't you think so as well? :)

BTW, in my reformed spelling used in this forum, it should be
"Faðr mękkan, dú sum er tí himila."
in your signature for Jamtlandic.
But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.
Carl Sagan


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