Jamtlandic (Jamsk'/Jamske)

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Hunef
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Postby Hunef » 2007-11-10, 15:58

I completely agree with Travis B. The special thing about Jämtland and Jamtlandic isn't so much the dialect in itself from a linguistic point of view, but the fact that the area once was an independent state (until 1178) and later autonomous (until 1500's). So from an ethnic point of view, Jamtlandic is of interest to a non-Jamtlandic person.

Jamtlandic would never be taught outside Jämtland since it is almost a nationalistic statement to talk Jamtlandic. There's no such connotation for Elfdalian. Elfdalian is merely a weird Norse language, not a Norse dialect spoken by people in a former independent nation.

Note that national borders have had no linguistic significance whatsoever in the Nordic countries prior to the early 1800's when the modern form of national states were formed. Thus, the fact that Jämtland was independent or autonomous until the 1500's doesn't mean that there was a specific local language formed. Local dialects were developed everywhere in the Nordic countries to a degree which you can't see anywhere else in Europe (given the short time span, that is).
Last edited by Hunef on 2007-11-10, 16:09, edited 2 times in total.
But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.
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Postby The Finnish Spaniard » 2007-11-10, 16:07

Ah, I see. It does look like a very interesting language though.
Fang chang ká hrán x/ng ó lui á wát, x/ng ó slá.

*I'm looking for a Swahili speaking penpal!

Nataka mwalimu wa kiswahili!
Ni mwanafunzi.

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Hunef
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Postby Hunef » 2007-11-10, 16:09

The Finnish Spaniard wrote:Ah, I see. It does look like a very interesting language though.

Just ask me about it and I'll try to answer!
But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.
Carl Sagan

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Postby skye » 2007-11-10, 17:37

I'm just curious, why is there an umlaut in Jämtland and not in Jamtlandic? Is there a phonetic law behind it or is it just the way it is and can't be explained?

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Postby Hunef » 2007-11-10, 17:51

skye wrote:I'm just curious, why is there an umlaut in Jämtland and not in Jamtlandic? Is there a phonetic law behind it or is it just the way it is and can't be explained?

"Jämtland" is the official (Swedish and international) name of the province, and Jamtlandic is the unofficial English name of the local language I use here (and which most people use today in English speaking contexts).

In Jamtlandic the name of the province is Jamtlann (or possibly Jamtelann which seems to exist in poetical language, cf. Old Jamtlandic Jamtaland) with the traditional pronunciation [ˈjampˌlɐnː] (note the [p] instead of [t]). The name of the local language is jamsk', though colloquially the definite form jamska 'the Jamtlandic' is used. The indefinite jamsk' is merely academical. Thus in Jamtlandic - unlike Swedish - we have no umlaut in these instances. I can explain why if you're interested.
Last edited by Hunef on 2007-11-11, 19:08, edited 1 time in total.
But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.
Carl Sagan

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Postby skye » 2007-11-10, 18:00

So there's no umlaut in the original either, just in the Swedish version of the province name.

It's enough information for me, but if you care to answer I'll read that too. Thx.

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Postby Bokkjen » 2007-11-11, 1:30

The previous Swedish spelling had an e and not an ä. But thä ä was väry modärn in Swädän at one point and it räplaced thä e:s in many words complätly random. This did not happen in Norway and Denmark and it's why they still have the spelling "Jemtland". Though in Trøndelag (culturally conected to Jämtland) they've always used the a, there are still "Jamtvegen", "Jamtøya" and other place and roadnames present there (the placenames come from immigrants who fled the province when Sweden occupied it and the roads come from the trading routes farmers from Jämtland used each year).

Also the name Jamtlandic (Swedish: jämtländska) is actually quite horrible as there shouldn't be any "land" there (compare to Danish: jemtsk, Swedish: jämtska and regional jamska). The province has gotten it's name from the people (the Jamts) and it really ought to be Jamtish or something. The name "Jamtlandic" was probably invented by Bo Oscarsson who would create a landbridge between Jämtland and Iceland if he could (though Iceland got it's name from geography, not people). The difference is that "Jamtlandic" can be compared to "Irelandic" (as opposed to Irish), a form equally silly.

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Postby Hunef » 2007-11-11, 19:21

Bokkjen, thanks for the information about the origin of the form Jamtlandic rather than tyhe more logical Jamtish (or "Yamtish"?).

skye wrote:It's enough information for me, but if you care to answer I'll read that too. Thx.

In Jamtlandic (or Jamtish/Yamtish or whatever the anglified name would be), the progressive i-umlaut exists only after a consonant. Examples: fjall > fjell 'mountain', hjarta > hjert' 'heart', bjór > bjør 'beaver', krjúpa > krýp' 'creep' etc. If the j was initial, it never caused the umlaut. Examples: jafn > jamn 'even', jörð > jórð 'earth' etc. The reason there was a blocked umlaut if j was initial is that it got sharpened to a phonetic [j] rather than kept as a non-syllabic vowel [ɪ]. (It's still the case that the initial j is more consonantic than the non-initial j. Cf. jamn [jamn] vs hjert' [ɪæ.æʈː].)
But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.
Carl Sagan

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Postby skye » 2007-11-14, 12:08

I guess I'd need more knowldege of Swedish and other Scandinavian languages for this. I don't even know where both examples are taken from. (I'm guessing Swedish and Jamtlandic.)

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Postby Hunef » 2007-11-16, 22:26

skye wrote:I guess I'd need more knowldege of Swedish and other Scandinavian languages for this. I don't even know where both examples are taken from. (I'm guessing Swedish and Jamtlandic.)

Which examples?
But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.
Carl Sagan

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Postby skye » 2007-11-20, 15:55

fjall - fjell, hjarta - hjert, ...

or are they just different forms?

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Postby Hunef » 2007-11-20, 20:02

skye wrote:fjall - fjell, hjarta - hjert', ...

or are they just different forms?

Old Norse vs Modern Jamtlandic.
But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.
Carl Sagan

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Postby Egein » 2007-11-20, 22:27

Hunef wrote:
skye wrote:fjall - fjell, hjarta - hjert', ...

or are they just different forms?

Old Norse vs Modern Jamtlandic.


fjall and hjarta are modern icelandic...

I can't say I've een hjert or fjell in old norse.
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Postby skye » 2007-11-20, 22:45

That was my third guess. :D

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Postby Hunef » 2007-11-21, 21:03

Egein wrote:
Hunef wrote:
skye wrote:fjall - fjell, hjarta - hjert', ...

or are they just different forms?

Old Norse vs Modern Jamtlandic.


fjall and hjarta are modern icelandic...

And Old Norse.

Egein wrote:I can't say I've een hjert or fjell in old norse.

That's Modern Jamtlandic, and it's hjert' with an apostrophe!
Last edited by Hunef on 2007-11-21, 22:36, edited 1 time in total.
But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.
Carl Sagan

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Postby Egein » 2007-11-21, 21:50

Ha! well soooo-ho-rrry!

Says who?

(love)
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Translation of one song

Postby cegiela » 2007-11-23, 18:48

Hello everybody!

I'd like to ask you for translating the lyrics of one song into Jamtlandic.
The text to be translated is:

I am an atomic waste

No one loves me
No one likes me
No one respects me
No one wants me

I am ugly
I am disgusting
I am hideous
I am dirty


I'd be cordially thankful also for an IPA transcription, if it is not a problem for you.
You might visit our website with yet over 50 language versions of this song:
http://kolczyki.php5.cz/atom.html
Cheers,
Lukasz Cegiela

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Postby kuneli » 2007-11-25, 23:31

Hunef wrote:Bokkjen, thanks for the information about the origin of the form Jamtlandic rather than tyhe more logical Jamtish (or "Yamtish"?).

skye wrote:It's enough information for me, but if you care to answer I'll read that too. Thx.

In Jamtlandic (or Jamtish/Yamtish or whatever the anglified name would be), the progressive i-umlaut exists only after a consonant. Examples: fjall > fjell 'mountain', hjarta > hjert' 'heart', bjór > bjør 'beaver', krjúpa > krýp' 'creep' etc. If the j was initial, it never caused the umlaut. Examples: jafn > jamn 'even', jörð > jórð 'earth' etc. The reason there was a blocked umlaut if j was initial is that it got sharpened to a phonetic [j] rather than kept as a non-syllabic vowel [ɪ]. (It's still the case that the initial j is more consonantic than the non-initial j. Cf. jamn [jamn] vs hjert' [ɪæ.æʈː].)


Hej Hunef, jag heter danai och e från grekland.tackar för informationerna du ofta ger till oss alla och jag menar inte bara det som du skrivit här "ovanpå", utan allt du berättar om för oss på andra sidor som t.ex. om Färöiska, vanligen i samtal med den karlen, Mulder. Jag visste veerkligen inte att Jämtska och Älfdalska är språk och inga svenska dialekter.Känner du kanske nån site var jag kunde möjligen läsa om dem?Tack i alla fall och jg hoppas att du fortsätter att (be-)/upp-lysa oss...
Hoppas det är svenska det jag just skrev här..det blir många år jag varken skrev eller talade på ditt språk...

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Postby Aleco » 2007-11-29, 20:42

Har du ordna i stand noen rettskrivning for jemtsk ennå, da? :D Åssen går du fram? Snakker du med jemtfolk rudnt om der du bor?

Have you made some ortography for Jamtlandic yet? :D How do you things? Do you talk with Jamtlandic people where you live?
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Understands (sv) Understands (dk) Studied (ja)
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Postby Hunef » 2007-11-30, 22:14

Egein wrote:Ha! well soooo-ho-rrry!

Says who?

Me! :lol:
But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.
Carl Sagan


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