Jamtlandic (Jamsk'/Jamske)

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Postby Hunef » 2006-04-21, 18:09

Priscian wrote:Jens:

Your version of the Lord's Prayer is actually quite beautiful!

N faðr vánn

Dú faðr sum er uppí himlį!
Lat namnið dit várð' tala taf uss.
Lat ríkið dit komo hít at uss.
Lat vili dí ráð' pá jórðinn,
sum uppí himlį.
Gef uss matinn fyr dagį.
Fyrlat uss skúllin vár',
og með skal fyrlát' dum sum er skyllug uss.
Narr uss int' tí dumheitin,
úttą háll uss frá allt sum er ónt.
Fyr ríkið er dit, og maktį og ærų í all ævugheit.
Amen.


I would write a completely different version, though. Bo has used some pretty silly words here, like e.g. "dumheitan" 'stupidities' (spelled dumheitin by me). I would also use mekkan 'our' instead of vánn and vár', and mekk 'us' instead of uss.
But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.
Carl Sagan

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Postby Hunef » 2006-04-21, 18:12

Travis B. wrote:
Hunef wrote:You have there "Jämtland - Föllinge" and "Jämtland - Åsarna". The Föllinge (or Fyling, in Jamtlandic) dialect is more or less identical to my dialect. (It's classified as Litsmål, and my grand mother grew up in Lit.) I encourage you to listen to "Dalarna - Älvdalen" s well, since that's the spectacular dialect of Dalecarlian I spoke about above. It could linguistically be called a separate language.


At least from what I myself have read over about Dalecarlian, its grammar was more reminiscient of insular West North Germanic than Standard Swedish, even if its genetically firmly East North Germanic, and even if it were not all too far from Standard Swedish with respect to lexicon. And yet I have seen individuals insist that it is a dialect of Swedish despite that Standard Swedish, Standard Danish, and at least Bokmål (and maybe even Nynorsk) are likely at least as close to each other in practice today than it and Standard Swedish, with the exception of the phonology of Standard Danish versus the other two (even though I could easily be wrong here). It is interesting that one would call it a dialect of a language whose standard language form is probably more similar to the standard language form of that called a separate language.


The reason that the grammar of Dalecarlian is reminiscient of the insular scandinavian languages is that Old Norse had a grammar independent of dialects. (Though pronunciation and vocabulary definitely were dialectal dependent and has always been.)
But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.
Carl Sagan

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Postby Hunef » 2006-04-21, 18:59

Tomcat wrote:What makes Dalekarlian so special? I would love to read a sentence in Jamtlandic and its Dalekarlian translation, or a word, or some grammatical endings or whatever.

When I learnt Swedish some 25 years back, there was of course no internet yet, but in our local university library I found an interesting book on Swedish dialects, with sample texts for each dialect - and I was really amazed how much they differ from the official standard. While I was able to read the official Swedish very well at that time, I hardly understood anything from those dialect texts.


No doubt that the traditional dialectal variation within Mainland Scandinavia has been stronger than in Germany. Unlike Germany, Scandinavia used to consist of scattered communities far from eachother which induced dialectal variation. Dalecarlia has the strongest dialectal variation - the dialect in one parrish may not be intelligible in the neighbouring one and having a completely different grammar and pronunciation. It has ben reported that in some villages in Älvdalen had important dialectal borders going through them.

Let's compare Standard Swedish, Central Jamtlandic and Älvdalen Dalecarlian for a few words and expressions. I'll use Swedish phonetical spelling as far as possible. Some special symbols will be used:

ô - a sound between Swedish a, å and ö (IPA [ɞ])
ð - like 'th' in English 'they', 'that' etc
l - retroflex 'r' with a flap (" thick 'l' ")
â - a sound between Swedish a and ä (i.e., between IPA [a] and [æ])
w - like in English (IPA [w]), though slightly more vowelish
dj - like 'j' in English 'job'
tsj - like 'ch' in English 'chain' (ttsj when long)
: - denotes a long vowel (long consonants are doubled)
´ - denotes monosyllabic accent, like in Swedish anden 'the duck'
` - denotes bisyllabic accent, like in Swedish anden ' the spirit'
' - denotes short-stem accent, like in English 'pitty'
~ - makes the preceeding vowel nasal


Note that o is always pronunced as in Swedish bok (IPA [u]).

standard swedish
central jamtlandic
älvdalen dalecarlian
'English'


ja: he:´ter e:`rik
je: hei:t ei:`rik
i:g ie:`tter ie:rk
'My name is Eric'

vi: pra:`ta me hånn`åm
mâ tâ`lâ mâ a
wi~: tä'lä'ðum min o'num
'We spoke with him'

hon: föl´jer äf`ter häs´ten
hu: fa:l ätt`e häs´ta
o~: fy:`er ett`er es`tem
'She follows the horse'

var´jen så:´ver ba:`kåm nå:`gra sto:`ra björ`kar
vär´jen sö:v ba`ka nô:`ger sto:r e bjô`ôrsk
war´gen so:v ba'ko~ no:`grum stu:`rum byö`rkum
'The wolf sleeps behind some big birches'

lägg nykk`la'rna vi: fön´stre å:'van`fö:r bo:´rde, flikk`or
He:`an nökk`lan he`mâ glu´ddjen om:´a bo:`lan, stô`ôrs
e'vi nykk`la~ nest wind`o:gað u'vo~ buo:`rðe~, kull`är
'Put the keys by the window above the table, girls'

lå:t åss sju:`ta me bå:`gar!
sjö:`tom mâ bôu`gom!
stsjiuo:`tum! min bu'gum!
'Let us shoot with bows!'

I might have made some mistakes here in the phonetical writing, but I guess some of the differences are displayed.
But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.
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Postby Priscian » 2006-04-23, 3:51

Hunef wrote:

ô - a sound between Swedish a, å and ö (IPA [ɞ])
ð - like 'th' in English 'they', 'that' etc
l - retroflex 'r' with a flap (" thick 'l' ")
â - a sound between Swedish a and ä (i.e., between IPA [a] and [æ])
w - like in English (IPA [w]), though slightly more vowelish
dj - like 'j' in English 'job'
tsj - like 'ch' in English 'chain' (ttsj when long)
: - denotes a long vowel (long consonants are doubled)
´ - denotes monosyllabic accent, like in Swedish anden 'the duck'
` - denotes bisyllabic accent, like in Swedish anden ' the spirit'
' - denotes short-stem accent, like in English 'pitty'
~ - makes the preceeding vowel nasal


Note that o is always pronunced as in Swedish bok (IPA [u]).

standard swedish
central jamtlandic
älvdalen dalecarlian
'English'


ja: he:´ter e:`rik
je: hei:t ei:`rik
i:g ie:`tter ie:rk
'My name is Eric'

vi: pra:`ta me hånn`åm
mâ tâ`lâ mâ a
wi~: tä'lä'ðum min o'num
'We spoke with him'

hon: föl´jer äf`ter häs´ten
hu: fa:l ätt`e häs´ta
o~: fy:`er ett`er es`tem
'She follows the horse'

var´jen så:´ver ba:`kåm nå:`gra sto:`ra björ`kar
vär´jen sö:v ba`ka nô:`ger sto:r e bjô`ôrsk
war´gen so:v ba'ko~ no:`grum stu:`rum byö`rkum
'The wolf sleeps behind some big birches'

lägg nykk`la'rna vi: fön´stre å:'van`fö:r bo:´rde, flikk`or
He:`an nökk`lan he`mâ glu´ddjen om:´a bo:`lan, stô`ôrs
e'vi nykk`la~ nest wind`o:gað u'vo~ buo:`rðe~, kull`är
'Put the keys by the window above the table, girls'

lå:t åss sju:`ta me bå:`gar!
sjö:`tom mâ bôu`gom!
stsjiuo:`tum! min bu'gum!
'Let us shoot with bows!'

I might have made some mistakes here in the phonetical writing, but I guess some of the differences are displayed.


This is spectacular and it will go into Hunef's Jamtlandic Grammar! Give me (us) more of the morphology and phonology; please continue the verbal paradigm!
Arma virumque cano

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Postby Priscian » 2006-04-23, 4:05

Re: Älvdalecarlian

Martin Ringmar’s paper (”Älvdaldalska en önordisk språkö på fastlandet?”) is captivating, since it shows the users own mental construct as to the nature of their language. They are aware of the archaic features of their language and use it as some sort of capital (cf. P. Bourdieu, Language and Symbolic Power). This is unlike many smaller languages or dialects which are viewed as a hindrance or as stigma by their users. It would be interesting to know how other regional languages within Sweden view their languages (dialects), i.e. Jämtland, Scania, and Gotland, etc. In contrast, German minority languages are facing similar situations, but here the dominant language is more powerful than it is in Sweden. The Norway seems to be tolerant in a broader sense towards language variation than most nations, since it has two official languages which do coexist and there is a general allowance towards dialects.

I am not in a position to speak about Swedish society or its language policies, but it appears from the little that I know that a certain linguistic hegemony exists with rikssvenska. There seems to have been little impetus to assert language rights by the above mentioned regional languages, until recently. Part of this could be that the users have not formulated how they view their speech communities, whether as full-fledge languages, dialects, or variants of the standard. It will be interesting to find out, from Hunef, how the speakers of Jamtlandic view their language.

The success stories of smaller people(s) gaining (regaining) their rights using language as a leverage are Iceland and the Faeroes. Their identities were (are) tied up in their languages. Home rule in the Faeroes came as a result of their assertion of identity, which coincided with the re-establishment of Faroese as the primary language. Likewise, Iceland’s independence was driven by the capital that its speakers perceived and still perceive inherent in their language. The Shetlands on other hand do not have this same identity marker, maybe because their linguistic identity has been submerged into the Scottish (and / or British) society.

The speakers of Dalecarlian have consciously cultivated linguistic capital by continuing their speech communities. The reasons for this maybe sociological in nature, since the province (landskap) has long maintained a separate identity within the larger Swedish society.

It is very difficult to maintain a language identity outside the context of a political entity. Languages which have no geographic or political consciousness invariably become extinct or are marginalized vis-à-vis the dominant language, cf. Yiddish in Israel and Sorbian in Germany. The successful languages have gained a complete or part autonomy, e.g. Iceland, Faeroes, Basque Region, Catalonia, etc.

Jämtland is a position similar to the Faeroes a century ago. It is up to the inhabitants of the province to choose and direct their own future within (outside) Swedish society. This can not be mandated by from the outside, but must be decided by Jämtland itself. One step in this direction (my opinion) is language consciousness. Here I have not stated my own views, about the politics, (of which I know little), but only voiced concerns about the Jamtlandic language.
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Postby Hunef » 2006-04-29, 16:39

The reason I haven't ben active here for a week is that I have reconsidered some of the spelling. My reconsideration is due to a compromise between my superetymological spelling and the more "phonetical" (at least from a Mainland Scandinavian POV) spelling employed by most serious writers of Jamtlandic today. The reformation mainly concerns how I spell the endings which once in history were conditionally weakened, a phenomenon only occuring in North Norse and nearby dialects. Standard Swedish and Norwegian have some of these conditionally weakened endings. Danish, Faroese and Icelandic don't have them at all. (Well, Faroese have conditionally weakened endings in some dialects, but the system is completely different from the North Norse one.)

Until the referral of my changes has been processed, I must wait some time before posting something about Jamtlandic here. Priscian, why not try to start a forum for Jamtlandic amongst the language specific forums? I see that e.g. Low Saxon, Luxembourgish, Scots etc are represented there. If they can be represented there, Jamtlandic can as well. As far as I can see, some North Norse dialect needs a representation there. Jamtlandic would be the best choice of obvious reasons. (Since I know it and it has a written normal, though still "under construction". :wink: )
But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.
Carl Sagan

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Postby Car » 2006-04-29, 18:10

Hunef, would you want to be a moderator of the Jamtlandic forum? If so, we could set it up. Its name is Jamska in Jamtlandic, isn't it?
Please correct my mistakes!

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Postby Hunef » 2006-04-29, 18:25

Car wrote:Hunef, would you want to be a moderator of the Jamtlandic forum? If so, we could set it up. Its name is Jamska in Jamtlandic, isn't it?


What would it mean to be moderator of the forum - concerning responsibilities - ?

The name of the forum would be "Jamtlandic (Jamtsk')". I am not sure where the form "jamska" comes from, concerning the anachronistic ending -a. (Well, it's a definite ending in modern Jamtlandic, and often the definite form and indefinite form are interchangeable. But the name of the language should be in the formally indefinite form.) Strangely, it's the spelling used by most jamtlanders though. (See, e.g., http://www.astro.uu.se/~ns/jamska.html for an example of the use of this form.) I think that people have simply mixed the formally definite Jamtlandic form with the standard Swedish form. (In Swedish, names of languages usually end with -ska in the indefinite form, which is identical to the corresponding formally definite form in Jamtlandic.)
I have added the t in jamtsk' due to normalisation reasons. It is silent, of course. (And has been so since Old Norse period, probably.)
But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.
Carl Sagan

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Postby Car » 2006-04-29, 18:45

Hunef wrote:What would it mean to be moderator of the forum - concerning responsibilities - ?


That would mean that you should be around regularly to check what's going on and answer questions, remove spam etc. But it doesn't mean that you'll have to create material or anything like that. Actually, based on your usual activity, I don't think you'll have any problems with that.

The name of the forum would be "Jamtlandic (Jamtsk')". I am not sure where the form "jamska" comes from, concerning the anachronistic ending -a. (Well, it's a definite ending in modern Jamtlandic, and often the definite form and indefinite form are interchangeable. But the name of the language should be in the formally indefinite form.) Strangely, it's the spelling used by most jamtlanders though. (See, e.g., http://www.astro.uu.se/~ns/jamska.html for an example of the use of this form.)


I noticed that, too, that's why I'm asking. But actually, many of the sites I saw were in Swedish, so that might be the reason for it.
Was the -ska in Swedish originally a definitive form, BTW?
Please correct my mistakes!

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Postby Nukalurk » 2006-04-29, 18:53

Car, would then those languages be added to the template for languages? :?: I'm just asking because you can't add Plattdüütsch to the language lists, for example.

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Postby Hunef » 2006-04-29, 18:59

Car wrote:
Hunef wrote:What would it mean to be moderator of the forum - concerning responsibilities - ?


That would mean that you should be around regularly to check what's going on and answer questions, remove spam etc. But it doesn't mean that you'll have to create material or anything like that. Actually, based on your usual activity, I don't think you'll have any problems with that.

The fact that I am writing this response a few minutes after your response, my presence at a Jamtlandic forum wouldn't be any problem. If you want to give me a moderatorship of Jamtlandic forum, just do it. :)

Car wrote:
Hunef wrote:The name of the forum would be "Jamtlandic (Jamtsk')". I am not sure where the form "jamska" comes from, concerning the anachronistic ending -a. (Well, it's a definite ending in modern Jamtlandic, and often the definite form and indefinite form are interchangeable. But the name of the language should be in the formally indefinite form.) Strangely, it's the spelling used by most jamtlanders though. (See, e.g., http://www.astro.uu.se/~ns/jamska.html for an example of the use of this form.)


I noticed that, too, that's why I'm asking. But actually, many of the sites I saw were in Swedish, so that might be the reason for it.

No, that is not the reason since even in Jamtlandic writing, it is called jamska. It may be that one has simply borrowed the Swedish indefinite ending -ska. In any case, there should be no -a in a formal native spelling of the name of Jamtlandic in my POV.

Car wrote:Was the -ska in Swedish originally a definitive form, BTW?


No, it comes from Old Swedish weak feminine indefinite ending -ska, which in turn comes from Proto-Norse -skón, e.g. Swedish tyska 'German', which comes from (normalised) Old Swedish týðska/þýðska, which in turn comes from Proto-Norse (and Proto-Germanic) þeuðiskón.
But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.
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Postby Car » 2006-04-29, 19:36

Amikeco wrote:Car, would then those languages be added to the template for languages? :?: I'm just asking because you can't add Plattdüütsch to the language lists, for example.


I can't tell, because I have no influence on the templates. Send a mail to webmaster (AT) unilang (DOT) org and ask.

Hunef: I just added Jamtlandic and made you a moderator.
Please correct my mistakes!

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The Jamtlandic forum initiated

Postby Hunef » 2006-04-30, 16:03

Finally the forum for Jamtlandic has been initiated, with me (Hunef) as moderator, thanks to a request in a thread in another forum.

This forum will deal with the dialects spoken in Jamtlann, Swe. 'Jämtland', in (north)western Sweden. As the reader of this post may have read somewhere, North Germanic may be separated into West Norse (Norwegian and its conservative offsprings in Iceland and Faroe islands) and East Norse (Danish and Swedish). This classification is somewhat over-simplified in the modern view, though. Indeed, today some linguists instead employ the following rough classification:

*Insular Norse
**Northwestern Insular Norse
***Icelandic
***Greenlandic (extincted 15th century)
**Southeastern Insular Norse
***Faroese
***Norn (extincted 18th century)
*Mainland Norse
**Western Mainland Norse
**Northern Mainland Norse
**Eastern Mainland Norse
**Southern Mainland Norse

Here Jamtlandic belongs to Northern Mainland Norse, which are characterised mainly by the vowel balance phenomenon which in principle means that the distinction between Old Norse long stemmed words and short stemmed words is preserved such that the old long stemmed words today have weakened endings but preserved stems, and the old short stemmed words have a more or less preserved ending, but to the cost of a stem vowel which has approached the ending vowel.
But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.
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Postby Hunef » 2006-04-30, 16:23

Car wrote:
Amikeco wrote:Car, would then those languages be added to the template for languages? :?: I'm just asking because you can't add Plattdüütsch to the language lists, for example.


I can't tell, because I have no influence on the templates. Send a mail to webmaster (AT) unilang (DOT) org and ask.

Hunef: I just added Jamtlandic and made you a moderator.


Thanks. I have already posted there now.
But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.
Carl Sagan

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Postby Travis B. » 2006-04-30, 18:09

One minor question is whether the Jamtlandic thread in the UniLang Language Forum is most likely going to be moved over here or kept there. I am just wondering myself simply due to having been following the thread and consequently being interested in knowing which form one should check to see if new posts are in the thread in the future.
secretGeek on CodingHorror wrote:Type inference is not a gateway drug to more dynamically typed languages.

Rather "var" is a gateway drug toward "real" type inferencing, of which var is but a tiny cigarette to the greater crack mountain!

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Postby Hunef » 2006-04-30, 19:21

Travis B. wrote:One minor question is whether the Jamtlandic thread in the UniLang Language Forum is most likely going to be moved over here or kept there. I am just wondering myself simply due to having been following the thread and consequently being interested in knowing which form one should check to see if new posts are in the thread in the future.


I think someone should move the thread about Jamtlandic in the general Language forum. I don't have the authority, though. (I only moderate this forum.) Car probably has the authority, since she's a Forum Administrator. I'll direct the request to her.
But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.
Carl Sagan

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Postby Hunef » 2006-04-30, 19:25

Car, may you move this thread into the Jamtlandic forum, please?
But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.
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Postby Priscian » 2006-05-01, 3:14

Jens!

This new Jamtlandic forum is fantastic! I apologize for having been gone for a few days ... for a visit to Thailand.

Myriad of grammatical questions are upcoming (LAUGH).
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Postby Priscian » 2006-05-01, 3:16

I congratulate you on the new forum for a great people and their language.

Can we have an all Jamsk topic, where we get to see the language?
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Jamtlandic Grammar

Postby Priscian » 2006-05-01, 3:21

I would like to suggest that this new topic deals only with Jamtlandic language issues, i.e. morphology, orthographic conventions, phonology, and semantics.
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