Jamtlandic (Jamsk'/Jamske)

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Hunef
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Postby Hunef » 2006-04-16, 15:42

Mulder-21 wrote:Faroese, again for comparison:

At bjóða:

at bjóða - býður - beyð - buðu - hevur boðið

At finna:

at finna - finnur - fann - funnu - hevur funnið

JP :)

PS. 'At bjóða' can also be conjugated weakly:

at bjóða - bjóðar - bjóðaði - bjóðaðu - hevur bjóðað,

however, the strong conjugation is the preferred one.


In at least Swedish, the verb att bjuda may be weak, at least in spoken form or less formal written style (it may be childrens' language as well):

att bju - bjur - bjudde - bjutt

(This is in analogy with verbs like att tro 'to believe': att tro - tror - trodde - trott.)
But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.
Carl Sagan

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Postby Hunef » 2006-04-16, 16:06

Next type:

Type 4: Characterized by the root vowel changes: e/i/(j)a--a-ó--e/y (inf/pres--imp sg-imp pl--sup).

Example: til gjafa' [tʰɪ java] 'to give'.

Infinitive:
gjafa [java]
(Sólį skal gjafa deg grókraptinn 'The sun will give you grow-force', i.e. '...make you grow')

Presens indicative:
sing: gef [jeːv]
plur: gjafa [java]
(Hú gef kýnnum høyið 'She gives hay to the cows')

Presens conjunctive:
sing: gefi [jevɪ]
plur: gefi [jevɪ]
(Hann gefi meg ringinn 'May he give me the ring')

Imperfect indicative:
sing: gaf [gɑː]
plur: góf' [guːu] (anal. w. vór' 'were'; vá- > vó-)
(Með góf' streikum greið i skøyt' 'We gave good skates to the boys')

Imperfect conjunctive:
sing: góf' [guːu] (anal. w. vór' 'were'; vá- > vó-)
plur: góf' [guːu] (anal. w. vór' 'were'; vá- > vó-)
(Góf' a baðnin gottą, so hafd' deð vyrið artugt 'If she would've given candy to the child, it had been nice')

Supine:
gefið [jevɪ]
(Jeg hef gevið ellufum ittnogoð 'I have given nothing to those eleven ones')

Imperative: Gef! [jeː] (sg. 2nd), Gefum! [jeːvʊm] (pl. 1st), Gefin! [jevɪn] (pl. 2nd).
(Gefin dum deð dum tulu! 'Give'em what they can take!')I
Last edited by Hunef on 2006-04-16, 16:13, edited 1 time in total.
But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.
Carl Sagan

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Postby Hunef » 2006-04-16, 16:09

I should emphasize that the conjunctive forms (or whatever I should call them) - especially the presens ones - are reather theoretical. Focus on the indicative forms. (It should also be noted, of course, that the plural forms are reconstructions as well, except for in imperative where the Old Norse system is intact to this day in spoken Jamtlandic.)

Next time I'll present strong verbs with i-umlauts in presens. (Which will prove that Jamtlandic is more West Norse than East Norse, though mainly North Norse, of course. :wink: )
But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.
Carl Sagan

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Postby Aszev » 2006-04-17, 0:40

Hunef wrote:
Mulder-21 wrote:Faroese, again for comparison:

At bjóða:

at bjóða - býður - beyð - buðu - hevur boðið

At finna:

at finna - finnur - fann - funnu - hevur funnið

JP :)

PS. 'At bjóða' can also be conjugated weakly:

at bjóða - bjóðar - bjóðaði - bjóðaðu - hevur bjóðað,

however, the strong conjugation is the preferred one.


In at least Swedish, the verb att bjuda may be weak, at least in spoken form or less formal written style (it may be childrens' language as well):

att bju - bjur - bjudde - bjutt

(This is in analogy with verbs like att tro 'to believe': att tro - tror - trodde - trott.)
I've never heard of a weak bjuda before :roll:

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Postby Mulder-21 » 2006-04-17, 3:23

It's amazing, how close Jämtlandic and Faroese are. (Well, in orthography at least. ;) )

at geva: [Ead dZe:va]

at geva - gevur - gav - góvu - hevur givið

[Ead dZe:va] - [dZe:vUr] (or [-U4]) - [gEav] - [gOuvo] (my dialect has [9u] instead of [Ou]) - [he:vUr dZi:ve]

Am not quite sure how to write Faroese -i(ð) in SAMPA/IPA. Sometimes they sounds like [e] and other times like [@] but usually they're not quite these.
Gløgt er gestsins eyga. (Føroyskt orðafelli)
Wise is the stranger's eye. (Faroese saying)
L'occhio dell'ospite è acuto. (Proverbio faroico)
Hosťovo oko je múdre. (Faerské uslovie)

Fluent: Faroese, Danish, English, German
Almost fluent: Norwegian, Swedish
Basic: Slovak (studying), Spanish
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Postby Hunef » 2006-04-17, 18:08

Aszev wrote:
Hunef wrote:
Mulder-21 wrote:Faroese, again for comparison:

At bjóða:

at bjóða - býður - beyð - buðu - hevur boðið

At finna:

at finna - finnur - fann - funnu - hevur funnið

JP :)

PS. 'At bjóða' can also be conjugated weakly:

at bjóða - bjóðar - bjóðaði - bjóðaðu - hevur bjóðað,

however, the strong conjugation is the preferred one.


In at least Swedish, the verb att bjuda may be weak, at least in spoken form or less formal written style (it may be childrens' language as well):

att bju - bjur - bjudde - bjutt

(This is in analogy with verbs like att tro 'to believe': att tro - tror - trodde - trott.)
I've never heard of a weak bjuda before :roll:


From Benny Andersson's (not the former ABBA member, but a radio profile on SR Väst) sarcastic song "Dalai Lama":


När Göran Persson bjudde Dalai Lama på en jätte frukost,
det var en ära, det var en ära - Jasså? det var en ära, det var en ära…. Jag undrar vad dom pratade om när dom rostade sitt bröd…
Ja ja ja ja rosta bröd ja ja…ja ja


Aszev, only because you haven't heard of something, it doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.
:roll:
But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.
Carl Sagan

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Postby Hunef » 2006-04-17, 18:20

Mulder-21 wrote:It's amazing, how close Jämtlandic and Faroese are. (Well, in orthography at least. ;) )


They both come from Old NOrse, and when using etymological spelling and normalisation, they will look quite similar.

I suspect that Faroese góvu insetad of gávu (ON gáfu) may be due to the same phenomenion as in jamtlandic, i.e., analogy with the development vá- > vó- in vóru (ON váru). Here, /va > /vo is quite general in many scandinavian dialects. In Icelandic one e.g. has vor 'spring' (ON vár), vogur 'bay' (ON vág). In Jamtlandic, one often also has a dropped v as in kóð' 'resin' (ON kváðu acc.), hot 'what' (ON hvat - only Faroese and Jamtlandic have preserved -t here) etc.
But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.
Carl Sagan

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Postby Hunef » 2006-04-17, 18:40

Next type:

Type 4: Characterized by the root vowel changes: a/á-e/æ--ó-ó--e/ë/y (inf-pres sg--imp sg-imp pl--sup).

Example: til skaka [tʰɪ skʰaka] 'to shake'.

Infinitive:
skaka [skʰaka]
(Jeg skal skaka deg tilst dú døyr 'I'll shake you until you die')

Presens indicative:
sing: skek [ʃʰeːk]
plur: skaka [skʰaka]
(Dú skek sunt brúinn 'You are shaking the bridge such that it'll break')

Presens conjunctive:
sing: skëki [skʰeːtʃʰɪ]
plur: skëki [skʰeːtʃʰɪ]
(Hestinn skëki taf a 'May the horse shake him off')

Imperfect indicative:
sing: skók [skʰuːk]
plur: skók' [skʰuːuk]
(Deð skók' sunt brúinn 'You shook the bridge until it broke')

Imperfect conjunctive:
sing: skók' [skʰuːk] (anal. w. vór' 'were'; vá- > vó-)
plur: skók' [skʰuːk] (anal. w. vór' 'were'; vá- > vó-)
(Skók' jeg beri glasin tilst vatnið rinn útt 'If I only could shake the glass until the water gets out')

Supine:
skëkið [skʰeːtʃʰɪ]
(Hann hef itt' skëkið sturkinn 'He has not shaken the girl')

Imperative: Skak! [skʰɑːk] (sg. 2nd), Skakum! [skʰɑːkʊm] (pl. 1st), Skëkin! [skʰetʃʰɪn] (pl. 2nd).
(Skak útt mourinn! 'Shake the ant such that it comes out!')
But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.
Carl Sagan

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Postby Mulder-21 » 2006-04-18, 2:35

Hunef wrote:They both come from Old NOrse, and when using etymological spelling and normalisation, they will look quite similar.


I knew that, Hunef, but according to the classifications Icelandic should be closer to Faroese than Jämtlandic, however, this isn't always so.

Hunef wrote:I suspect that Faroese góvu insetad of gávu (ON gáfu) may be due to the same phenomenion as in jamtlandic, i.e., analogy with the development vá- > vó- in vóru (ON váru). Here, /va > /vo is quite general in many scandinavian dialects. In Icelandic one e.g. has vor 'spring' (ON vár), vogur 'bay' (ON vág). In Jamtlandic, one often also has a dropped v as in kóð' 'resin' (ON kváðu acc.), hot 'what' (ON hvat - only Faroese and Jamtlandic have preserved -t here) etc.


Well, it may be DUE to the same Jämtlandic phenomenon, however, I doubt, that it's the same one.

You took three examples there: our, spring, and bay

They are: vár, vár and vágur in Faroese. So here vá- never became vo/vó- in Faroese.

You're also right about 'what', but as many grammar books'll tell you, the softer version of a hard consonant (by soft, I here mean pronuncing [d] instead of [t] and [g] instead of [k] (this is called unvoicing, right?)), so [kvEat] might be more likely to being pronunced [kvEad].

Returning to the verbal declensions (In English, nouns are conjugated, verbs declined and adjectives inflected, right?):

at skaka has become weak in Faroese, so it's of no use here:

at skaka [Ead sgEaga] - skakar [sgEagar] - skakaði [sgEagaji] (or maybe rather [a_j]?) - skakaðu [sgEagavo] - hevur skakað [he:vUr sgEaga]

Note: I write [g] here, since it's the simplest way to put it. However, since they could be [k_0] or maybe even something à la [g_h_k] (this exists, right?) one of these can be/is more correct. I need to take lessons in phonetics. :P ;)

A word, which is close enough, or whose pattern at least is similar, is the verb 'at ala', which means to 'breed'.

at ala [Eala] - elur [e:lUr] - ól [Oul]/[Eul]/[9ul] - ólu [Oulo]/[Eulo]/[9ulo] - alið [Eali]

However, this verb can also be declined without sound change (weakly):

at ala [Eala] - alir [EalIr] - aldi [aldi] - aldu [aldo] - hevur alt [he:vUr al_h:t] (alt could very well also be [aJ_0t]. L is really weird in Faroese)

JP
Gløgt er gestsins eyga. (Føroyskt orðafelli)
Wise is the stranger's eye. (Faroese saying)
L'occhio dell'ospite è acuto. (Proverbio faroico)
Hosťovo oko je múdre. (Faerské uslovie)

Fluent: Faroese, Danish, English, German
Almost fluent: Norwegian, Swedish
Basic: Slovak (studying), Spanish
Have studied: Hebrew, Russian
Interests: Ukrainian, Romanian, Italian, Albanian, Armenian, Ossetic, Hungarian, Estonian, Baltic languages

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Postby Priscian » 2006-04-18, 5:05

Frågor om själva jamskan.

Vad heter jamskan officiellt? Ivar Aasen kallade språket som han beskrev i sin grammatik ’landsmaal’, vilket senare ändrades till ’nynorsk’, vilket gav språkbrukaren en ny identität. Är ’jämtländska’ det svenska folkmålet i Jämtland och ’jamska’ namnet på språket? Termen ’Neo-Jamtlandic’ översätts den till ’nyjamska’? Är trøndersk och jamska samma språk? Om de är besläktade är språkgränsen större (Härjedalen också)?

Om Jämtland lyckas att få en begränsad autonomi blir Härjedalen del av denna enhet? Vad händer då i Trøndelag? Hur ser de i Trøndelag på den jamska språkrörelsen? Kanske mer intressant hur reagerar de i Härjedalen om jamska som ett kulturellt eller allmänt språk?

Jag tycker om hur du beskriver de skandinaviska språken, och jag håller med om att jamskan ligger mer inom norska språkområdet mer än (inom) sveamålen. Men den politiska och ekonomiska värkligheten är att Jämtland har styrts av Sverige sedan år 1645, blir utgångspunkten då svenska, norska, eller fornnordiska?

Här en beskrivelse om det laotiska språket som kanske hjälper sätta den jamska rörelsen i kontext med att annat folk. Det är nog bättre att jag skriver det här på svenska. Laotiska som en definition är komplicerad, därför landet skapades politiskt, dvs. landet Laos, var en fransk koloni till 1953 när det blev självständigt. Historiskt Laos existerade som två lokalt styrda områden under Thailands skydd. Nutids gränsen (Mekong floden) har ingenting med själva språket att göra. Laotiska talas fortfarande inom ett område some kallas Isan som tar in hela nordöstra Thailand och en stor del av Laos. Majoriteten av språket, som också hetter isan, talas i Thailand, av ungefär 6 - 7 miljoner, och kanske 2,5 i Laos. Men bara i Laos är det officiellt, thailändska myndigheterna kallar isan en dialekt av thailändskan. I Laos skrivs laotiskan med sitt eget alfabete, men i Thailand har det ingen ställning och om det skrivs är det utskrivit med thailändska bokstäver. Laotiska (sedan 70-talet) skrivs fonetiskt, men i Thailand fortsätter man att skriva etymologist (dvs. pali orden). När vi åker över gränsen är allt skrivit på thailändska men folket talar laotiska (isan) med varandra. Konstigt nog så använder dem thailändska med oss om vi talar laotiska till dem, men fortsätter att tala isan med varandra. TV och radio programen är nästan helt på thailändska.

Vad jag ville säga är att benämningen laotiska-isan är politisk och inte en naturlig skillnad. Frankrike hadde mycket att göra med den konstiga ställning som nu exister mellan länderna. Men i franskt försvar så var de ganska toleranta när det gäller språkbruk. Denna position står även idag. Vad det har gjort är ambivös ställning ibland folken, t. ex. thailändska är nu nästan ett språk inom själva laotiskan. En icke laot kan använda thailändska eller en blandning av laotisk-thailändska, men det går inte åt på det andra hållet. Romaniseringen är fortfarande uppsatt på ett franskt mönster, (men i Thailand har den blivit influerad av engelskan), t. ex. Vientiane [wiang-jan]. Språkpolitiken i Thailand har skadat isan och laotiskan; men den har gjort mig sympatisk för alla besatta (underkuvade) folk och deras rättigheter att tala, använda, formulera sig själva på sina egna språk.

Gott skratt: Nätkafét som jag använder har ett laotiskt tangentbord, Word är på thailändksa, ägaren är en vietnames (han talar ett utländskt språk ... ryska) och jag sitter brevid min filipinska fru och jag försöker att skriva om jamska på svenska!
Arma virumque cano

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Postby Priscian » 2006-04-18, 5:06

Frågor om själva jamskan.

Vad heter jamskan officiellt? Ivar Aasen kallade språket som han beskrev i sin grammatik ’landsmaal’, vilket senare ändrades till ’nynorsk’, vilket gav språkbrukaren en ny identität. Är ’jämtländska’ det svenska folkmålet i Jämtland och ’jamska’ namnet på språket? Termen ’Neo-Jamtlandic’ översätts den till ’nyjamska’? Är trøndersk och jamska samma språk? Om de är besläktade är språkgränsen större (Härjedalen också)?

Om Jämtland lyckas att få en begränsad autonomi blir Härjedalen del av denna enhet? Vad händer då i Trøndelag? Hur ser de i Trøndelag på den jamska språkrörelsen? Kanske mer intressant hur reagerar de i Härjedalen om jamska som ett kulturellt eller allmänt språk?

Jag tycker om hur du beskriver de skandinaviska språken, och jag håller med om att jamskan ligger mer inom norska språkområdet mer än (inom) sveamålen. Men den politiska och ekonomiska värkligheten är att Jämtland har styrts av Sverige sedan år 1645, blir utgångspunkten då svenska, norska, eller fornnordiska?

Här en beskrivelse om det laotiska språket som kanske hjälper sätta den jamska rörelsen i kontext med att annat folk. Det är nog bättre att jag skriver det här på svenska. Laotiska som en definition är komplicerad, därför landet skapades politiskt, dvs. landet Laos, var en fransk koloni till 1953 när det blev självständigt. Historiskt Laos existerade som två lokalt styrda områden under Thailands skydd. Nutids gränsen (Mekong floden) har ingenting med själva språket att göra. Laotiska talas fortfarande inom ett område some kallas Isan som tar in hela nordöstra Thailand och en stor del av Laos. Majoriteten av språket, som också hetter isan, talas i Thailand, av ungefär 6 - 7 miljoner, och kanske 2,5 i Laos. Men bara i Laos är det officiellt, thailändska myndigheterna kallar isan en dialekt av thailändskan. I Laos skrivs laotiskan med sitt eget alfabete, men i Thailand har det ingen ställning och om det skrivs är det utskrivit med thailändska bokstäver. Laotiska (sedan 70-talet) skrivs fonetiskt, men i Thailand fortsätter man att skriva etymologist (dvs. pali orden). När vi åker över gränsen är allt skrivit på thailändska men folket talar laotiska (isan) med varandra. Konstigt nog så använder dem thailändska med oss om vi talar laotiska till dem, men fortsätter att tala isan med varandra. TV och radio programen är nästan helt på thailändska.

Vad jag ville säga är att benämningen laotiska-isan är politisk och inte en naturlig skillnad. Frankrike hadde mycket att göra med den konstiga ställning som nu exister mellan länderna. Men i franskt försvar så var de ganska toleranta när det gäller språkbruk. Denna position står även idag. Vad det har gjort är ambivös ställning ibland folken, t. ex. thailändska är nu nästan ett språk inom själva laotiskan. En icke laot kan använda thailändska eller en blandning av laotisk-thailändska, men det går inte åt på det andra hållet. Romaniseringen är fortfarande uppsatt på ett franskt mönster, (men i Thailand har den blivit influerad av engelskan), t. ex. Vientiane [wiang-jan]. Språkpolitiken i Thailand har skadat isan och laotiskan; men den har gjort mig sympatisk för alla besatta (underkuvade) folk och deras rättigheter att tala, använda, formulera sig själva på sina egna språk.

Gott skratt: Nätkafét som jag använder har ett laotiskt tangentbord, Word är på thailändksa, ägaren är en vietnames (han talar ett utländskt språk ... ryska) och jag sitter brevid min filipinska fru och jag försöker att skriva om jamska på svenska!
Arma virumque cano



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Postby Hunef » 2006-04-18, 19:58

Mulder-21 wrote:
Hunef wrote:They both come from Old NOrse, and when using etymological spelling and normalisation, they will look quite similar.


I knew that, Hunef, but according to the classifications Icelandic should be closer to Faroese than Jämtlandic, however, this isn't always so.


Well, the classification only deals with the dominating, standardised languages in Mainland Scandinavia. If one normalise, etymologise and "purify" any dialect spoken in Northern Sweden or Norway, it'll be about as close to Faroese as Faroese is to Icelandic. Faroese has an average position between Icelandic and the dialects in Norway and Northern Sweden. (Read about a comparance between Faroese and Dalecarlian using Icelandic as a benchmark here.)

Mulder-21 wrote:
Hunef wrote:I suspect that Faroese góvu insetad of gávu (ON gáfu) may be due to the same phenomenion as in jamtlandic, i.e., analogy with the development vá- > vó- in vóru (ON váru). Here, /va > /vo is quite general in many scandinavian dialects. In Icelandic one e.g. has vor 'spring' (ON vár), vogur 'bay' (ON vág). In Jamtlandic, one often also has a dropped v as in kóð' 'resin' (ON kváðu acc.), hot 'what' (ON hvat - only Faroese and Jamtlandic have preserved -t here) etc.


Well, it may be DUE to the same Jämtlandic phenomenon, however, I doubt, that it's the same one.


Well, there may be a similar reason.

Mulder-21 wrote:You took three examples there: our, spring, and bay

They are: vár, vár and vágur in Faroese. So here vá- never became vo/vó- in Faroese.


Those examples were specific for Icelandic. In Jamtlandic one has vár and vág (e.g. in the place name Krákvág 'Crow Bay') as well. Are you sure that there are no examples at all where > or va > vo? The best way to find out is to look for words containing or vo in a dictionary and post them here and I'll quickly be able to tell whether they have the origin or va, respectively. This is a task for you, Johan Petur. :wink:

Mulder-21 wrote:You're also right about 'what', but as many grammar books'll tell you, the softer version of a hard consonant (by soft, I here mean pronuncing [d] instead of [t] and [g] instead of [k] (this is called unvoicing, right?)), so [kvEat] might be more likely to being pronunced [kvEad].


Yeah, but it's not hvað [kvEa:], is it?

Mulder-21 wrote:Returning to the verbal declensions (In English, nouns are conjugated, verbs declined and adjectives inflected, right?):

at skaka has become weak in Faroese, so it's of no use here:

at skaka [Ead sgEaga] - skakar [sgEagar] - skakaði [sgEagaji] (or maybe rather [a_j]?) - skakaðu [sgEagavo] - hevur skakað [he:vUr sgEaga]


In Swedish it's weak as well: att skaka - skakar - skakade - har skakat. But Jamtlandic has preserved the strong conjugation. (Like English has.) I don't think there's any weak conjugation of this verb. (See below for an example of a verb which is either strong or weak.)

Mulder-21 wrote:A word, which is close enough, or whose pattern at least is similar, is the verb 'at ala', which means to 'breed'.

at ala [Eala] - elur [e:lUr] - ól [Oul]/[Eul]/[9ul] - ólu [Oulo]/[Eulo]/[9ulo] - alið [Eali]


In Jamtlandic:

til ala [aɽa] - el [eːɽ] - ól [uːɽ] - ól' [uːuɽ] - hef elið [eɽɪ].

Mulder-21 wrote:However, this verb can also be declined without sound change (weakly):

at ala [Eala] - alir [EalIr] - aldi [aldi] - aldu [aldo] - hevur alt [he:vUr al_h:t] (alt could very well also be [aJ_0t]. L is really weird in Faroese)

JP


It can be weak in Jamtlandic as well:

til ala [aɽa] - eli [eɽɪ] - ald' [ææɖː] - hef ald [æɖː].

Note the expression aldisvón [ˈæɖːəsˌʋuːn] 'breeding ability', used for animals which you want to breed: "Jeg ynskj' souðum góð i aldisvón" [jeːɣ øøɲʃ ʂɞɵːvʊm guː ɪ ˈæɖːəsˌʋuːn] 'I wish a good breeding ability for the sheep'. (ON ván 'hope, expectation'; an example of the development > in Jamtlandic.)
But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.
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Postby Hunef » 2006-04-18, 20:37

Priscian wrote:Vad heter jamskan officiellt? Ivar Aasen kallade språket som han beskrev i sin grammatik ’landsmaal’, vilket senare ändrades till ’nynorsk’, vilket gav språkbrukaren en ny identität. Är ’jämtländska’ det svenska folkmålet i Jämtland och ’jamska’ namnet på språket? Termen ’Neo-Jamtlandic’ översätts den till ’nyjamska’? Är trøndersk och jamska samma språk? Om de är besläktade är språkgränsen större (Härjedalen också)?


Jag börjar luta åt namnet högjämtska - "hœgjamtsk'" [ˈhøʏːɣˌjamsk] - för min skriftnormal, men att själva språket (eller dialekten av skandinaviska) ska kallas jämtska - "jamtsk'" [jaamsk].
Jag vet inte om det egentligen är någon skillnad, formellt sett, mellan 'jämtländska' och 'jämtska'. Det förra kan nog ses som ett vidare begrepp än det senare, dvs 'jämtländska' innehåller 'jämtska', 'lidmål', 'ragundamål', en mot rikssvenskan uttunnad jämtska, kanske till och med härdalska etc.
Termen 'Neo-Jamtlandic' översätts som 'nyjämtska' på svenska. Jämtska och tröndska - dit härdalskan hör - är grenar på samma nordskandinaviska dialekt som talades med Trondheimsfjorden som centrum för 1000-1500 år sedan. Kom ihåg att Trondheim var minst lika viktigt språkcentrum som Bergen där isländska, färöiska och västnorska hade sitt centrum fram tills 1300-talet.

Priscian wrote:Om Jämtland lyckas att få en begränsad autonomi blir Härjedalen del av denna enhet? Vad händer då i Trøndelag? Hur ser de i Trøndelag på den jamska språkrörelsen? Kanske mer intressant hur reagerar de i Härjedalen om jamska som ett kulturellt eller allmänt språk?


Eftersom Härjedalen ligger i samma län som Jämtland, så är det mest troliga at Härjedalen blir en del av samma autonomi. (Om befolkningen där röstar för förslaget, så.) Det kommer inte hända nånting speciellt med Tröndelag, förutom att en viktig poäng med autonomin är att stärka de gamla banden med fylket. (Se Håkan Larssons hemsida för mer information om bildandet av vår autonomi och (åter-)upprättandet av parlamentet Jamtamót.) Självklart är det inte speciellt svårt att infoga de härdalska dialekterna under samma skriftspråk som jämtskan. Även lidmålet och ragundamålet kan enkelt infogas. Allt detta pga den etymologiska stavningen. (Visst, skriftspråket har sitt fokus på jämtskan, men 80% av befolkningen i Jämtlands län bor i det område där man traditionellt talar jämtska. 10% bor i härdalska området, och av de resterande 10%:en bor de flesta i ragundamålsområdet. Lidmålet talas bara i en socken i nordvästligaste Jämtland.)

Priscian wrote:Jag tycker om hur du beskriver de skandinaviska språken, och jag håller med om att jamskan ligger mer inom norska språkområdet mer än (inom) sveamålen. Men den politiska och ekonomiska värkligheten är att Jämtland har styrts av Sverige sedan år 1645, blir utgångspunkten då svenska, norska, eller fornnordiska?


Jag tror att utgångspunkten blir den nordskandinaviska dialekten av fornnordiska och att jämförelser med hur man konstruerat och upprätthållit främst färöiska, menockså isländska, kommer göras.

Priscian wrote:Här en beskrivelse om det laotiska språket som kanske hjälper sätta den jamska rörelsen i kontext med att annat folk. [...]

Gott skratt: Nätkafét som jag använder har ett laotiskt tangentbord, Word är på thailändksa, ägaren är en vietnames (han talar ett utländskt språk ... ryska) och jag sitter brevid min filipinska fru och jag försöker att skriva om jamska på svenska!


Tack för beskrivningen av situationen angående det laotiska språket.

Ah, du har en fillipinsk fru? Min kusin har faktiskt en thailändsk fru (eller snarare sambo - de är inte gifta). Han är nästan 200 cm lång, så det är en viss längdskillnad mellan dem. Deras barn (de har två pojkar nu) bör bli av normallängd, c:a 180 cm, rimligen. :wink:
But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.
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Postby Priscian » 2006-04-20, 2:40

Thank you for the posting! I will respond with a longer message.

In the mean time, I found the following site, about Jamtlandic proverbs (maxims): http://perampere.com/jamska.htm

How would you normalize the orthography for the Lord's Prayer (using Bo Oscarsson's translation)?


N Far Vånn

Du Far, som e oppi himla!
Latt namne dett vål tæla ta oss.
Latt rike dett komma hit at oss.
Latt vilja di rå på jorln,
som oppi himla.
Gje oss matn för daga.
Förlåt oss skullan vår,
å mæ ske förlåt dom som e skyllu oss.
Narr oss int ti dumheitan,
uttan håll oss frå allht som e ont.
För rike e dett, å makta å ära i all evigheit.
Amen.


(Översätte ta a Bo Oscarsson frå nynorsk 1998)
Arma virumque cano



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Postby Erin » 2006-04-20, 12:48

Thanks for all this great info! It's really interesting.

I'm wondering if there is some place to download some spoken Jamtlandic. I have a presentation to do in my Swedish class, and am wanting to talk about Jamtlandic. I have the Garmarna song Kulleritova, and I've also seem the files on http://www.astro.uu.se/~ns/jamska.html, but those seem more dialect than actual Jamtlandic.

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Postby Hunef » 2006-04-20, 19:10

Priscian wrote:Thank you for the posting! I will respond with a longer message.

In the mean time, I found the following site, about Jamtlandic proverbs (maxims): http://perampere.com/jamska.htm

How would you normalize the orthography for the Lord's Prayer (using Bo Oscarsson's translation)?


N Far Vånn

Du Far, som e oppi himla!
Latt namne dett vål tæla ta oss.
Latt rike dett komma hit at oss.
Latt vilja di rå på jorln,
som oppi himla.
Gje oss matn för daga.
Förlåt oss skullan vår,
å mæ ske förlåt dom som e skyllu oss.
Narr oss int ti dumheitan,
uttan håll oss frå allht som e ont.
För rike e dett, å makta å ära i all evigheit.
Amen.


(Översätte ta a Bo Oscarsson frå nynorsk 1998)


Bo Oscarsson is quite interesting. He's focusing all on keeping the dative vs accusative right, but other aspects of the genuine Jamtlandic dialect isn't considered much. Thus, I really can't normalise wverything of what he writes since not all of it is genuine Jamtlandic, but rather Standard Swedish with übercorrect Jamtlandic dative vs accusatiove endings. For example, he has daga 'the day' with correct dative ending -a (-n in accusative), but he completely forgets about the softening of the g. In genuine Jamtlandic, it's not "daga", but dagja (using his orthography). My point here is that Bo has grown up with a not so genuine Jamtlandic, and when he has started to think about what genuine Jamtlandic is, he has mainly focused on getting the dative vs accusative endings right, and "details" like pronunciation and vocabulary are not as important in his POV.

Well, I'll give it a try anyway using a few changes of his inconsistencies (see below):


N faðr vánn

Dú faðr sum er uppí himlį!
Lat namnið dit várð' tala taf uss.
Lat ríkið dit komo hít at uss.
Lat vili dí ráð' pá jórðinn,
sum uppí himlį.
Gef uss matinn fyr dagį.
Fyrlat uss skúllin vár',
og með skal fyrlát' dum sum er skyllug uss.
Narr uss int' tí dumheitin,
úttą háll uss frá allt sum er ónt.
Fyr ríkið er dit, og maktį og ærų í all ævugheit.
Amen.


The original version which you posted has some inconsistencies, e.g., (using his orthography) Latt! is imperative of the verb lååt 'to let', but the verb förlåt 'to forgive' with the same -lå(å)t suddenly gets the imperative Förlåt!, not the expected Förlatt!. (I use the latter, proper imperative for consistency. I am not sure which would be the most genuine Jamtlandic, though.) Furthermore, he has no softening in rike 'the kingdom' and daga 'the dday' (dat.), where one would expect rikje and dagja, respectively. He writes evigheit 'eternity', which is inconsistent with the adjective evu 'eternal'. I see a few other flaws as well (the most important concerning vilja n. 'will'), apart from the fact that he's using so many foreign words.
But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.
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Postby Hunef » 2006-04-20, 19:19

Erin wrote:Thanks for all this great info! It's really interesting.

I'm wondering if there is some place to download some spoken Jamtlandic. I have a presentation to do in my Swedish class, and am wanting to talk about Jamtlandic. I have the Garmarna song Kulleritova, and I've also seem the files on http://www.astro.uu.se/~ns/jamska.html, but those seem more dialect than actual Jamtlandic.


Jamtlandic is a dialect of Scandinavian, no doubt. It's linguistically hardly a separate language and it's not the most "spectacular" dialect even in a Swedish context. (That'd be Dalecarlian, for sure.)
The link to Nils-Göran Sjölanders website doesn't work for me. Can you post some of the examples he gives? (The words, not the sound files since I can't listen to sound files at the moment in Stockholm.)
I don't think I have heard Garmarna, but I know about them.
Here's a link to some pretty good sound files:

http://www.svd.se/dynamiskt/kultur/did_4351328.asp

You have there "Jämtland - Föllinge" and "Jämtland - Åsarna". The Föllinge (or Fyling, in Jamtlandic) dialect is more or less identical to my dialect. (It's classified as Litsmål, and my grand mother grew up in Lit.) I encourage you to listen to "Dalarna - Älvdalen" s well, since that's the spectacular dialect of Dalecarlian I spoke about above. It could linguistically be called a separate language.
But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.
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Postby Priscian » 2006-04-21, 4:36

Jens:

Your version of the Lord's Prayer is actually quite beautiful!

N faðr vánn

Dú faðr sum er uppí himlį!
Lat namnið dit várð' tala taf uss.
Lat ríkið dit komo hít at uss.
Lat vili dí ráð' pá jórðinn,
sum uppí himlį.
Gef uss matinn fyr dagį.
Fyrlat uss skúllin vár',
og með skal fyrlát' dum sum er skyllug uss.
Narr uss int' tí dumheitin,
úttą háll uss frá allt sum er ónt.
Fyr ríkið er dit, og maktį og ærų í all ævugheit.
Amen.
Arma virumque cano



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Postby Travis B. » 2006-04-21, 9:52

Hunef wrote:You have there "Jämtland - Föllinge" and "Jämtland - Åsarna". The Föllinge (or Fyling, in Jamtlandic) dialect is more or less identical to my dialect. (It's classified as Litsmål, and my grand mother grew up in Lit.) I encourage you to listen to "Dalarna - Älvdalen" s well, since that's the spectacular dialect of Dalecarlian I spoke about above. It could linguistically be called a separate language.


At least from what I myself have read over about Dalecarlian, its grammar was more reminiscient of insular West North Germanic than Standard Swedish, even if its genetically firmly East North Germanic, and even if it were not all too far from Standard Swedish with respect to lexicon. And yet I have seen individuals insist that it is a dialect of Swedish despite that Standard Swedish, Standard Danish, and at least Bokmål (and maybe even Nynorsk) are likely at least as close to each other in practice today than it and Standard Swedish, with the exception of the phonology of Standard Danish versus the other two (even though I could easily be wrong here). It is interesting that one would call it a dialect of a language whose standard language form is probably more similar to the standard language form of that called a separate language.
secretGeek on CodingHorror wrote:Type inference is not a gateway drug to more dynamically typed languages.

Rather "var" is a gateway drug toward "real" type inferencing, of which var is but a tiny cigarette to the greater crack mountain!

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Postby Tomcat » 2006-04-21, 12:13

What makes Dalekarlian so special? I would love to read a sentence in Jamtlandic and its Dalekarlian translation, or a word, or some grammatical endings or whatever.

When I learnt Swedish some 25 years back, there was of course no internet yet, but in our local university library I found an interesting book on Swedish dialects, with sample texts for each dialect - and I was really amazed how much they differ from the official standard. While I was able to read the official Swedish very well at that time, I hardly understood anything from those dialect texts.
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