Lachian / Lachisch / Lachique

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Radegast
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Lachian / Lachisch / Lachique

Postby Radegast » 2006-04-02, 13:09

Who does speak this language? And why isn't it possible to select it in the list of languages?

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Postby Nukalurk » 2006-04-02, 13:22

Most likely because no one had been able to translate the website into this language. The reason why you can't find it there might be because no one of the members knows it? :?:

You could offer your help here: http://home.unilang.org/main/forum/viewforum.php?f=9. :)

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Re: Lachian / Lachisch / Lachique

Postby ladyskywalker » 2006-04-02, 15:02

Radegast wrote:Who does speak this language? And why isn't it possible to select it in the list of languages?


I have to admit I have never heard of this language. :shock: *goes to Wikipedia it*

[EDIT] It appears the mighty Wikipedia does not have an entry for it. :?

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Postby Oleksij » 2006-04-02, 15:15

I bet Lachian is a Slavic language spoken in Poland. Ukrainian resources and literature from the 18th century and before refer to Poles as "Lachs".
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Re: Lachian / Lachisch / Lachique

Postby Hubi » 2006-04-02, 15:33

ladyskywalker wrote:It appears the mighty Wikipedia does not have an entry for it. :?

Of course it has: German, Lithuanian, Polish

It's a West Slavic language spoken in Czech Silesia and Hlučínsko. It is often referred to as a Czech dialect, although there are significant differences. Lachian is related to the Polish dialect of Upper Silesia.
The main differences between Lachian and Czech are:
*different vocabulary and sounds which don't occur in Czech (e.g. dz and dž)
*the second last syllable is stressed (like in Polish)
*different declinations
*sound changes
*no difference between long and short vowels (like in Polish and Sorbian)


and here is another German link about this language: http://www.uni-klu.ac.at/eeo/Lachisch.pdf
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Re: Lachian / Lachisch / Lachique

Postby ladyskywalker » 2006-04-02, 15:52

Hubi wrote:
ladyskywalker wrote:It appears the mighty Wikipedia does not have an entry for it. :?

Of course it has: German, Lithuanian, Polish


Well, it doesn't help if you don't know what languages to look under, does it? ;) I ran a search on Wikipedia and all it gave was 4 results which had nothing to do with the language. Even Google wasn't all that helpful.

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Postby Rikita » 2006-04-03, 17:40

Lassko is the name for the region around Frendstát pod Radhostem, Frýdek, Ostrava and Opava - but this word for the region only became generally accepted in the 19th century - and the region doesn't really correspond with any natural, historical or political borders... the linguistic and ethnographic region Lachia lies in the border area between Silesia and Moravia and was never a independent political entity (all this according to Kevin Hannan)

Up till the 19th century and in fact until today the word "lachian" is somewhat ambivalent, and sometimes used as pejorative, and these days only seldom used as linguistic term...

One of the most important people to know in connection to lachian is the writer Óndra Lysohorsky (not his real name, but rather a lachian name he made up for himself) - he tried to form a lachian literary language, and with it a lachian identity...

Usually lachian is parted into three dialectal groups - the western one around Opava, the eastern one around Ostrava, and a southern one around Frenstát pod Radhostem...

Lachian doesn't have distinctive vowel length, I think, in contrast to Czech, and most of its varieties distinguish /i/ and /y/, again in contrast to Czech - but in contrast to Polish Lachian doesn't have nasal vowels, nd there are some varieties that don't distinguish /i/ and /y/, also in contrast to Polish Lachian doesn't velarize the Common Slavic *ě...

Some of the typical things for consonants are that in some lachian dialects s' and z' get palatalized before e and i, while in tohers they become s and z (s'eno vs seno), and in the area about opava to š (šeno) - czech would be seno. and others...
there is a progressive assimilation of voiced/nonvoiced consonants, similarly to polish, while in czech it would be regressive. like in czech, the common slavic *g became h (hłava, like czech hlava) - contrast to polish - but in contrast to czech l and r can't form syllables in lachian...

okay, there are more phonetic differences to polish and czech, and also morphological and lexical ones, but i guess this is getting boring for most people... also, i must say i wrote a uni paper on lachian a few years ago but the paper isn't all that great so there might be quite a few mistakes in what i wrote here... anyway, if anyone wants to know more, i can write some more...

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Postby Radegast » 2006-04-04, 1:44

Rikita wrote:...and these days only seldom used as linguistic term...


The term "lassky" is very frequent in linguistic papers. Somewhat confusing may be the term "vychodolassky" which is used for a group of Polish dialects around Karwina, Cieszyn and Jablonkow (on both sides of the Olza border).

Do you speak Lachian?

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Postby Kuba » 2006-04-04, 7:09

Rikita wrote: ... in contrast to Polish Lachian doesn't velarize the Common Slavic *ě...

What does that mean? Can you give an example, please?

Rikita wrote:okay, there are more phonetic differences to polish and czech, and also morphological and lexical ones, but i guess this is getting boring for most people... also, i must say i wrote a uni paper on lachian a few years ago but the paper isn't all that great so there might be quite a few mistakes in what i wrote here... anyway, if anyone wants to know more, i can write some more...

No, it's not boring - I'd like to hear more...
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Postby Rikita » 2006-04-04, 21:00

Radegast wrote:
Rikita wrote:...and these days only seldom used as linguistic term...


The term "lassky" is very frequent in linguistic papers. Somewhat confusing may be the term "vychodolassky" which is used for a group of Polish dialects around Karwina, Cieszyn and Jablonkow (on both sides of the Olza border).

Do you speak Lachian?

that's just what was said in some of the books i read, particularly in a book by someone named kevin hannan, though the book was not particularly on lachian - which was my problem anyway: most stuff i found on lachian was in czech or polish or sometimes russian, none of which i know well enough to read that much in, and the other things were side notes in books on dialects of silesia or similar... so i guess there can be some mistakes in what i say, as i didn't have a chance to verify it too much...

i don't speak lachian, haven't even been the area it's spoken... i just wrote that paper on it a year ago, mainly because it was the only topic connected somehow with czech in the sociolinguistics course i took, and i needed a grade for czech...

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Postby Rikita » 2006-04-04, 22:32

Kuba wrote:
Rikita wrote: ... in contrast to Polish Lachian doesn't velarize the Common Slavic *ě...

What does that mean? Can you give an example, please?

well actually i just copied that now from the paper, and don't remember everything that clearly anymore (even back then i suppose i copied more from books, i am not really an expert on these things at all)... anyway, what they say is that words like hvězda or květ have the same form as in standard czech, while polish i guess would have changed the sound... i am sorry i can't really explain it, i'd have to get the books i got it from again and see what it says there. :(

anyway, to add some more things - in morphology lachian is distinguished from standard czech for example by using -my for the 1st person plural ending, similar to polish

the preposition "do" is used to show general movement to a direction (id'e do bratra), while in standard czech it would be used only for movement into a space (jde do divadla)

similar to polish it has a negation-genitive (maybe someone who speaks polish can explain how exactly that works?)

a particular form that is typical for lachian are its forms for the indicative present tense and past tense for the verb "to be" - there are different forms, like joch je and byłach žech in the east, and ja sem/ja sem je and była sem in the west...

it also has some lexems that are similar to the silesian dialects but aren't part of standard czech - like "kaj" for "where" (in standard czech "kde")

so in general you could say lachian is in some aspects similar to polish, in others similar to czech - and it has quite a bit in common with western slovakian dialects... the question which language they speak of often interesting from a political point of view, as it can go with national interests for the area (and if you read more about óndra łysohorsky you can see that it created some problems for him that he tried to create an own writing system for lachian, using parts of polish and parts of czech orthography, he was accused of trying to alienate the region from czech identity)...

one thing kevin hannan points out that i found interesting is, that when you look at the lachian dialects you realize that a "tower of babel theory", saying there is a "pure czech" from which different dialects go off like branches from a tree is not working, and that linguistic contact can sometimes be just as or more important than genetic connection of languages... and of course about dialects being a continuum, thus it can't be decided completely, which language the lachian dialects belong to (or of course if they are dialects, but then the distinction of dialect and language has been discussed here before...) though of course the czech influence is growing due to political reasons...

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Postby Kuba » 2006-04-05, 7:01

Rikita wrote:[...] anyway, what they say is that words like hvězda or květ have the same form as in standard czech, while polish i guess would have changed the sound...

ah, it's a /je/ > /ja/ change:
cz. hvězda <> pol. gwiazda
cz. květ <> pol. kwiat

Rikita wrote:similar to polish it has a negation-genitive (maybe someone who speaks polish can explain how exactly that works?)

It's like this: transitive verbs which take accusatine-objects turn tham into genetive-objects when negated.
Widzę chłopca. Nie widzę chłopca.
See-I boy-ACC. Not see-I boy-GEN.
(since boy is a masculine nomen and living (in some grammars this class is called "viril"), there is no overt difference between the accusative and the genetive)
Widziałem dziewczynę. Nie widziałem dziewczyny.
Saw-I girl-ACC. Not saw-I girl-GEN.
Mam mieszkanie. Nie mam mieszkania.
Have-I flat-ACC. Not have-I flat-GEN.
Piję piwo. Nie piję piwa.
Drink-I beer-ACC. Not drink-I beer-GEN.
Czytasz książkę. Nie czytasz książki.
Read-you book-ACC. Not read-you book-GEN.
Maybe this construction is a remnant of a genetivus partitivus, but I'm not sure - usually the genetivus partitivus is pretty often used in Polish...
Hmm - "I don't drink of wine" - "Ich trinke nicht des Weins!" :D

Rikita wrote:a particular form that is typical for lachian are its forms for the indicative present tense and past tense for the verb "to be" - there are different forms, like joch je and byłach žech in the east, and ja sem/ja sem je and była sem in the west...

That looks like a "more Polish" and a "more Czech" approach, and that with a lexem like "to be"... funny. (Though there are similar cases in German, too: PPP of "to be" in Vorarlberg - gsi, in the rest of Austria - gwen/gwesn)

Rikita wrote:one thing kevin hannan points out that i found interesting is, that when you look at the lachian dialects you realize that a "tower of babel theory", saying there is a "pure czech" from which different dialects go off like branches from a tree is not working, and that linguistic contact can sometimes be just as or more important than genetic connection of languages... and of course about dialects being a continuum, thus it can't be decided completely, which language the lachian dialects belong to (or of course if they are dialects, but then the distinction of dialect and language has been discussed here before...) though of course the czech influence is growing due to political reasons...

That's absolutely true - death to the family trees! Long live the continua and "change-waves"... :lol:

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Postby Rikita » 2006-04-06, 21:32

Kuba wrote:It's like this: transitive verbs which take accusatine-objects turn tham into genetive-objects when negated.
Widzę chłopca. Nie widzę chłopca.
See-I boy-ACC. Not see-I boy-GEN.
(since boy is a masculine nomen and living (in some grammars this class is called "viril"), there is no overt difference between the accusative and the genetive)
Widziałem dziewczynę. Nie widziałem dziewczyny.
Saw-I girl-ACC. Not saw-I girl-GEN.
Mam mieszkanie. Nie mam mieszkania.
Have-I flat-ACC. Not have-I flat-GEN.
Piję piwo. Nie piję piwa.
Drink-I beer-ACC. Not drink-I beer-GEN.
Czytasz książkę. Nie czytasz książki.
Read-you book-ACC. Not read-you book-GEN.
Maybe this construction is a remnant of a genetivus partitivus, but I'm not sure - usually the genetivus partitivus is pretty often used in Polish...
Hmm - "I don't drink of wine" - "Ich trinke nicht des Weins!" :D

Ah, okay... then is the plural genitive (like in czech and i suppose also in some other slavic languages) also a remnant of genitivus partitivus?[/quote]

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Past tense

Postby Radegast » 2006-04-21, 21:48

Interesting are the various past tense forms: "I saw/have seen"

widzioł(e)ch
žech widzioł
widzioł jo
móm widzóne

Morover, for intransitives:

jech przindzóny "I came"

As far as I know, the latter pattern only occurrs in Macedonian (among Slavonic languages: sum dojden).

The possessive perfect only uses the verb mieć (as in Mac, contrary to PP in Russian "u menja korova podojeno", adessive in BLit "manip karvė pamelžta").

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Some more information, but not in English

Postby Radegast » 2006-05-22, 22:38


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Postby hreru » 2006-05-23, 20:15

Rikita wrote: Ah, okay... then is the plural genitive (like in czech and i suppose also in some other slavic languages) also a remnant of genitivus partitivus?

I have no idea what you`re talking about ... I feel sad. :cry:

Nero

Postby Nero » 2006-05-23, 21:18

I have to admit I have never heard of this language. *goes to Wikipedia it*


Heh, me neither. :wink:

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Postby nettchelobek1 » 2006-05-24, 5:58

Rikita said:Ah, okay... then is the plural genitive (like in czech and i suppose also in some other slavic languages) also a remnant of genitivus partitivus?

Yeah, you're right, like in Russian.
There's a rule which states that if the noun or substance doesn't have singular form. e.g.
банка консервов - A can of tinned food.
with the word консервы in plural genitive.

Equally, the nouns of substances or matters that can be counted by unities.
e.g.
килограмм огурцов - a cucumber kilogram
много помодоров - a lot of tomatoes.

With both nouns in plural genitive.


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