Selam sarinenge! So kerena? So isi tumen nevo? But vakti na pišinđum tumen.
I really haven't posted in this thread (nor in Unilang in general) in such a looong time.
Thank God, I am using Romani language very often in my life these times.
I wanted to write a bit to this thread and I wasn't sure what to write, but then I figured I may go back and read my old messages again, and see whether I wrote some things wrong or incorrect and then correct them.
And oo boy, I found a lot of stuff
cHr0mChIk wrote:The variety which I knew was not necessarily the one which was spoken in my area, but rather the one in which the vast majority of the songs were - and that's the one where the phonemes "gj" and "kj" exist... - and the past tense is conjugated like vakjergjum, dingjum, dikhljum, mangljum... and the verb "to be" copula is "me sijum, tu sijan, vov si..." etc. (I guess this might be Macedonian Romani.. I don't even know...)
I believe I've already said this in later posts, however to clarify - the variety I'm talking about (the one with "gj", "kj", Perfect tense suffix "-jum", etc.) is the Macedonian Arli Romani.
(also, it's "ov" in Balkan Romani and not "vov" - that would be Vlax).
cHr0mChIk wrote:"I am moving away from the sun = Me našav taro khamehtar..."
Now that I look at this sentence, it seems quite strange to me. Both the "taro" and the suffix "-tar" seem redundant, and either just "Me našava khamestar." or "Me našava taro o kham" seem correct (the second one in particular having a more "Balkan" feel to it).
It's strange to see both used within one sentence, I'm guessing it may be a Serbian influence (where they use both the prepositions with case suffixes and not just the one or the other)?
Could perhaps @vijayjohn or someone who speaks a Vlax variety of Romani clarify how would this particular sentence be said in their variety of Romani? Honestly, I would just say it as "Našava taro o kham."
cHr0mChIk wrote:I noticed some differences from each one of their varieties and also the variety which I've known so far...
I was saying gj and kj in place where they were saying đ and ć (both Serbian and Bosnian Gypsies)
Also Serbian Gypsies (and me) had a "s" where the Bosnian Gypsies had "h" - "he is" = "vov hi" / "vov si"
"khamehtar" / "khamestar" etc.
Even the verb "to be" conjugation was different than how I was saying it:
(me sem, tu san, vov hi - Bosnian Gypsies;
me sem, tu san, vov si - Serbian Gypsies;
me som, tu sal, vov hi - Slovak/Hungarian Gypsies)
To clarify, both the Bosnian and Serbian Roma with whom I was talking there, spoke different regional varieties of Gurbet Romani (which belongs to the Southern Vlax Group), and Slovak and Hungarian Roma spoke various Central Romani dialects.
cHr0mChIk wrote:I've actually learned that in my city there are 2 separate groups of Gypsies.. they call themselves "Muslim Gypsies" and "Serbian Gypsies"... as the way they call themselves implies, their religion is different, but also the variety of Romani that they speak is also completely different...
Muslim Gypsies from my city were having a completely different verb "to be" conjugation which I saw for the first time there:
"me injum, tu injan, vov isi..."
(although the Serbian Gypsies from my city were saying me sem, tu san... etc.)
That is because the "Muslim Roma" have migrated into Northern Serbia mainly from Kosovo or Macedonia, and they spoke more "Southern" Romani Varieties (Balkan Romani dialects such as Arli and Bugurdži), while "Serbian Roma" refers to the people which have been living in these areas for centuries and they mainly spoke Vlax Romani (mainly the Čergarski variety, but there were others as well).
As for the "me injum, tu injan,..."; Arli Romani can be split into 2 subgroups: the "s" group and the "h" group.
Namely, some Arli speakers will say stuff like the copula:
"me si(n)jum, tu si(n)jan,..."
while the others will say it like:
"me hi(n)jum, tu hi(n)jan,..."
same goes for the word "was" (which is "sas" in Vlax Dialects if I remember well) - some will say it as "sine", some as "hine".
That is an interesting phenomenon which appears within every single Romani dialect group, and I believe I have spoken about it before.
From my experience, Arli spoken in Serbia and Kosovo mainly uses "h", while Macedonian and Bulgarian Arli use "s" - even though there may be exceptions.
cHr0mChIk wrote:So.. the reason why I don't know what is the variety which I speak is because I didn't learn Romani mostly from books, but from actual people, and the people were from all the different places... Although they've all been teaching me.. I've always tried to stick to my original variety which I spoke since high school (the one with gj.. vakjergjom, sijum, etc...)...
Nope. The actual reason why I was unsure of what Romani variety I spoke is because I didn't speak any "completely". I learned bits and pieces of Romani from different people and different places, and I knew it "fragmentarily", and also I kept mixing different dialects at the time.
The first variety I started to properly learn was "Gurbet Romani", and I learned it to a certain degree, but never reached fluency in it. Then, upon returning to my hometown in Vojvodina, I learned Arli Romani with the Roma there, and reached fluency in that one.
So the answer is, I speak Arli Romani, even though I am acquainted with other dialects and dialect groups "grammar-wise" but not "vocabulary-wise". What I mean is that I am acquainted with most dialect groups in terms of stuff like morphology, syntax, phonetics, but I do not know their vocabulary that well, so my understanding of different varieties varies.
I can understand Balkan Romani the easiest, and also those Vlax varieties which are spoken in there, such as Gurbet Romani. The more further Geographically they are, the lesser I can understand them.
"Čergari" Roma (Vlax) are probably the most numerous group of Roma in my hometown, however I don't know many of them and I am not really acquainted with their dialect that well.
cHr0mChIk wrote:From what I've experienced so far is that the Romani grammar is the same everywhere
O boy I was so wrong
different varieties of Romani have differences in almost every aspect, including grammar. There are some pretty different varieties of which I cannot understand almost a single word (Finnish Romani
cHr0mChIk wrote:Although I'm not sure whether it's sijum or sijom... you can't really tell clearly from the pronunciation, since the vowels are not as clear here... Actually I believe perhaps sijom would be the way it would be officially written.. I just hear sijum, I guess..
Both exist, however, the "-um" is the way it appears to be pronounced in Serbian and Macedonian Arli, while "-om" in Bulgarian Arli (Erli).
This is not just refering to the verb "to be" (copula), but to the Perfect tense as well (dikhljum vs dikhljom, etc.)
cHr0mChIk wrote:But I know that our Muslim Gypsies have ć đ... they say me vaćerđom... so ćere? etc... are these characteristics of the Arli varieties as well? I really don't know the full story...
No they don't. I confused what I learned from Vlax Roma while working in Slovakia with what I learned from Balkan Roma. That's why I mixed the dialects up.
Gurbet Roma say:
Arli Roma (in Serbia) say:
"me vaćerđum" (in Macedonia: "vakjergjum")
"so ćereja?" (in MK: "kereja")
While Bugurdži Roma (another group of "Muslim" Roma from my hometown - whose dialect belongs to the "2nd Balkan group", AKA "Zis Romani group") say:
I think that Čergari Roma say "me vakerdem" and "so keres?", however I am not 100% sure of this one, since I do not know many Čergari people, and I am only familiar with their variety on a really really basic level.
cHr0mChIk wrote:They had regular verbs "to speak" (vaćarel) "to talk" (phenel)...
Correction: "phenel" means "to say", and not "to talk". "vakerel" means both to talk and speak.
cHr0mChIk wrote:Also the word "nothing" was different everywhere.....
Bosnian Gypsies were saying "niso" (which makes sense), and Serbian Gypsies were saying "khanči"
Muslim Gypsies from my city say "ništa" (like in Serbian) - and they told me that Serbian Gypsies from our city also use "khanči"... since, when I asked about "khanči" they said "that's how Serbian Gypsies speak".
How do you say "nothing"?
The "Muslim" Roma in my hometown either say "ništo" or "hič" - and they consider the latter one more "proper Romani."
cHr0mChIk wrote:The neuter pronoun "it"...
Bosnian Gypsies said "guva"
However, the rest said "akava"
It's not a neuter pronoun, it's a demonstrative pronoun. Romani has only two genders.
cHr0mChIk wrote:"How many/How much" ?
Kozom/Kobor - Serbian (including Muslim) Gypsies
Gači - Bosnian Gypsies
Kati/Kaci/Kači/Kaći - something like that - Slovak/Hungarian Gypsies
To be exact, Bosnian Gurbet Romani speakers said "gaći";
Serbian Gurbet speakers said "Kozom".
"Kozom" is also used by Serbian Arli speakers;
and "kobor" is used by Bugurdži speakers and also Macedonian Arli speakers.
Arli people consider "kobor" more "proper" out of the two. Even though, they may be even used interchangeably. I've caught myself using them both interchangeably, even though I may use "kozom" a little more often and the only reason being that this is the word I hear more often around me.
cHr0mChIk wrote:Have you also heard of "hem" / "em" ? Is it maybe used with a different meaning?... hmm
It's a loanword. From Turkish language, ultimately from Persian.
head = šoro
neck/throat = /none/ - using Serbian words for these.. I could ask Gypsies from my city about these, though, when I'm back...
leg/foot = prno (therefore, comes the word "prnali" as well - "footwear / shoes").
I mixed up some things again.
Gurbet Roma from Bosnia said head as
"šoro", while the rest (both Vlax and Balkan Roma) said it as "šero".
"neck" is "men" in Balkan Romani, and "korr" in Vlax.
"throat" is "krlo", which is a Serbian loanword I believe.
I also said this, later on:
cHr0mChIk wrote:In our dialect, the neck is "vrato"
No it's not. It's a Serbianism. The neck is "men", and "vrato" is a Serbianism which some would occasionally use when code-switching, although not that commonly.
And, regarding leg:
"prno" in Vlax
"pro" in Balkan Romani.
I've never heard the word "prnali" used by Roma, the only place I've seen it is the dictionary. Here, we'd say "kundure", which is actually a loanword from Ottoman Turkish (it may ultimately have Greek origin though).
cHr0mChIk wrote:the "most" Gypsy word for it is "kundure"
I wonder what made me think it's "the most Gypsy word".
cHr0mChIk wrote:We also say berš, and I say berš as well. However, Bosnian Gypsies said "brš", and Dunđerski dictionary also states "brš". Anyway, I've stumbled on "breš" in literature as well.
Gurbet Roma from Bosnia said "brš", while the rest (Vlax and Balkan Roma) said "berš". Berš is the most typically used word in most dialects, while "brš" is used only in some Vlax varieties.
cHr0mChIk wrote:sky = ćeri / dela... Bosnian Gypsies said: oblakuri
"ćeri" and "dela" are the words I've seen in the dictionary only. In here they'd most of the time just say "nebo" (Slavic loanword), or "devel" (which also means God).
city = foro / diz
bread = marno
little = cikno / tikno
work = bući / buti
word = lafe / alav
death = mulipe
life = životi / džuvdipe (also "trajo" in literature)
(to die = merel; to live = živinel (although Serbian Gypsy in Slovakia told me "užinel" - that sounds like a snack to me
"foro(s)" is the Vlax Romani, while "diz" is Balkan Romani. Balkan Roma (ie. Arli) don't use "foro", and when I asked them about it, they told me they haven't heard of this word. However, I've heard one person say in a conversation "grado", which is an obvious Slavic loanword.
"maro" is the way bread is said in here, by all Balkan varieties. It's interesting that "to eat" is "hal maro". For example "I want to eat" = "Mangava te hav maro". It doesn't mean "to eat bread", but to eat in general.
(notice how I wrote it with "h" and not "x". All Balkan varieties I'm acquainted with don't have "x". I've only heard "x" being pronounced by Gurbet Roma).
Work is "buti" in Arli (that's the oldest pronounciation as well). In Gurbet Romani it's "bući" (palatalization); and in Bugurdći Romani it's "buci" (sibilarization).
"word" is "alav" in Vlax Romani and "lafi" in All Balkan varieties I've came in contact with. Other words Roma use regionally include "duma" and "svato" (Slavic loanwords - these words are not used in here, but I've heard them very frequently used by speakers of other Romani varieies) and also "vorba" (Romanian loanword).
"Life" is "životo" in all Balkan varieties spoken in here. Macedonian Arli speakers use "dživdipe" alongside "životo/životi" and both words can be heard interchangeably. "životo/životi" is an obvious Slavic loanword, while the other one is native.
(the same situation is with the verb. There is "živinela" and "dživdinela" - both used interchangeably in Macedonian Arli, however in Serbian and Kosovo Arli - živinela seems to be the only used one).
cHr0mChIk wrote:Why? = Sose? (also soske? soće? sohke?)
"Soske?" is the standard word for "why?" in pretty much every single variety of Romani. When Arli Roma speak in an everyday "slangy"-kinda way, they tend to remove the "k" from the Dative case, therefore saying "sose" instead of "soske"; "lese" instead of "leske", etc. This is done only in really informal speech and rarely can be seen in more serious writing, or in songs, but can be often heard on the streets. Roma acknowledge that saying it with "k" is the proper way of saying it.
The case of "sohke?" is some varieties of Gurbet Romani which turn "s" into "h"; and the case of "soće?" is also used by some varieties of Gurbet Romani, I believe. Since they are very known for their palatalizations of both "t" and "k" into "ć" ;
and also "d" and "g" into "đ", something which Balkan Roma do extremely Rarely - Balkan Roma only palatalize "k" and "d".
Example is "vaćer manđe!" ("tell me" in Gurbet). In Arli it would be "vaker mange" (and I believe in most Romani dialects it would be said similarly) - even though, many Serbian Arli speakers would say "vaćer mange".
cHr0mChIk wrote:When? = Kana?
"Kana?" is used by Vlax Roma and also Bugurdžije which belong to the "2nd Balkan group". Arlije say "ked(a)" or "kad(a)?" - "ked(a)" being more common.
vijayjohn wrote:For me, it's kon, unless it's a relative pronoun or in oblique case. Then it's kaj. In Russian Kalderash, in oblique case, it can instead be kas.
It's "kas" in Balkan Romani as well!
cHr0mChIk wrote:"Khali" is translated as zemlja as well.
Huh, okay, didn't know that word
Because it doesn't exist
cHr0mChIk wrote: vijayjohn wrote:
Perr, por, etc. are related to the Hindi/Urdu word: [peʈ].
Ohh so this seems to be the second instance from this conversation, where you have "e" and we have "o" (the first one being "head" - šoro / šero).
Once again, <where we have "o"> - no we don't!
I confused dialects again. The only people saying it with "o" were the Bosnian Gurbet Roma - all others I've encountered, said these words with "e".
cHr0mChIk wrote: vijayjohn wrote:
Oh yeah, I forgot about diz! I've never seen that word used in context before, though, only in research papers because it probably doesn't occur much (or at all) in the varieties I'm most familiar with.
Same, only seen it in literature. However, remembered it, and decided to include it.
At the time. "Diz" is the only word I hear nowadays
Balkan Roma do not use "foro" at all, as I've mentioned earlier.
cHr0mChIk wrote:Trin phrala sas, kaj tradine (džalje?) ande e lumja te šaj ćerena penge cikna love. Kana sas te džantar, phenđa e kavrenge o najphuro phral: "Šunen, m'e phralale, dža svako po pesko drom pe trin riga, hem pa jekh brš te arakhljam (I don't think we use pluperfect ever) pe sa akava drom kaj sijam akana!" Le kaver phrala dinđe pengo lafe te akava si te ćeren(...)
O boy this is some broken messed up thing. I wanted to "translate" it from one variety of Romani to other, but I did it accordingly to what I've known of Romani at the time, and that is some mixed dialects. I wanted to analyze it and correct it in this post, however, I've already written a whole novel of an enormous post, so I may do it other time...
Hahah it's actually the same case with this:
cHr0mChIk wrote:Na džanava so te pišinav... ake, odlučinava te pišiv o akava diveste... So me kerđum adive...
Me siklino uštava ko dešu jekh, andar i bući. Ćerava popodne, andar o fakulteti...
Ama adive uštljum ko dešu duj sati, te džav ki Džamija, adaleske isi Džuma.
Majpalal, ovljum ko bankake, em onda vratinđum e sobeste (...)
I mixed multiple dialects into one, and even made grammatical mistakes.
I may analyze this in future and point out everything which is wrong with it
However, this post is already excruciatingly long, so I've decided to end it here