Romani

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cHr0mChIk
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Re: Romani

Postby cHr0mChIk » 2018-07-16, 19:46

vijayjohn wrote:There is also an online course a fellow UniLanger once pointed out to me, but I completely forgot the URL and don't quite remember which variety it teaches, either.


I believe you're referring to Romaninet. It teaches Vlax Romani, as it seems. It appears to display a couple of Vlax dialects, Kalderaš, Lovara, Gurbet. I've checked out the dialogues and it seems they have, what sounds to me like quite strong Serbian accents, which is also kinda odd, because this isn't the variety of Romani which is spoken here. Anyway it seems interesting, although it isn't my thing.

vijayjohn wrote:Maybe it could have something to do with how well integrated Roma are in different places (i.e. when they're not as well integrated into the surrounding society, they're more likely to believe things like this)?


Makes sense. Anyway, here is a little different situation, they are not integrated/included/assimilated here at all - Roma live in their own "mahalas" (neighborhoods?) - separated. They are mostly Muslims, while the rest are Christians (Serbs, Hungarians, Slovaks, Romanians, etc. etc.) [with the exclusion of "Serbian" Roma, which appear to be a minority]. So, I guess they (our Roma) have given up such beliefs long time ago. Maybe with Serbian (Vlax) Roma, the situation is a bit different - maybe they are like this and these beliefs depend on their integration/assimilation... :hmm: :hmm:

vijayjohn wrote:Oh, maybe it's Lovara then. That's definitely a possibility. I'm good at confusing closely related linguistic varieties with each other. :lol:


Hehe sure :lol: Yeah I'm pretty sure it's Lovara. Anyway, still, I'm a bit confused why doesn't Ian mention this in the Handbook of Vlax Romani :hmm: :hmm:

Maybe he didn't consider it important enough - both are in reality pretty close sounds, both resembling "sh" / "zh" sounds.

księżycowy wrote:Do either of you guys know of any good textbooks (preferably with audio) to learn Romani with?


Besides Romaninet, if you understand Slovenian - there's one textbook in Slovenian which I have used in the past: Romani čhib!? Džaja anglal ko dromo!

I really like the way the book is, because it teaches Romani through conversations - but also shows grammar points as well.
وَقَالُوا لَن يَدْخُلَ الْجَنَّةَ إِلَّا مَن كَانَ هُودًا أَوْ نَصَارَىٰ ۗ تِلْكَ أَمَانِيُّهُمْ ۗ قُلْ هَاتُوا بُرْهَانَكُمْ إِن كُنتُمْ صَادِقِينَ
بَلَىٰ مَنْ أَسْلَمَ وَجْهَهُ لِلَّهِ وَهُوَ مُحْسِنٌ فَلَهُ أَجْرُهُ عِندَ رَبِّهِ وَلَا خَوْفٌ عَلَيْهِمْ وَلَا هُمْ يَحْزَنُونَ

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Re: Romani

Postby księżycowy » 2018-07-16, 20:08

cHr0mChIk wrote:
Besides Romaninet, if you understand Slovenian - there's one textbook in Slovenian which I have used in the past: Romani čhib!? Džaja anglal ko dromo!

I really like the way the book is, because it teaches Romani through conversations - but also shows grammar points as well.

Unfortunately, I don't know Slovenian.

And out of curiosity, is the Handbook of Vlax Romani a textbook, grammar, or something else entirely?

I think I remember RomaniNet, now that I look at it. It's a good resource to have, for sure! :)

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Re: Romani

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-07-16, 22:34

cHr0mChIk wrote:I believe you're referring to Romaninet.

That's the one! Thanks! :D
It teaches Vlax Romani, as it seems. It appears to display a couple of Vlax dialects, Kalderaš, Lovara, Gurbet. I've checked out the dialogues and it seems they have, what sounds to me like quite strong Serbian accents, which is also kinda odd, because this isn't the variety of Romani which is spoken here.

:shock: That's weird. I thought it was supposed to be one particular variety of Vlax Romani (but I forget which, maybe Lovari?).
Makes sense. Anyway, here is a little different situation, they are not integrated/included/assimilated here at all - Roma live in their own "mahalas" (neighborhoods?) - separated. They are mostly Muslims, while the rest are Christians (Serbs, Hungarians, Slovaks, Romanians, etc. etc.) [with the exclusion of "Serbian" Roma, which appear to be a minority]. So, I guess they (our Roma) have given up such beliefs long time ago. Maybe with Serbian (Vlax) Roma, the situation is a bit different - maybe they are like this and these beliefs depend on their integration/assimilation... :hmm: :hmm:

Interesting, thanks!
Maybe he didn't consider it important enough - both are in reality pretty close sounds, both resembling "sh" / "zh" sounds.

Maybe! Or maybe it's because of dialect contact or something - people who speak various dialects are constantly in contact, and maybe this also has had some effects on how they pronounce čh and ?
księżycowy wrote:And out of curiosity, is the Handbook of Vlax Romani a textbook, grammar, or something else entirely?

A grammar. You already have it. ;)
Last edited by vijayjohn on 2018-07-16, 23:39, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Romani

Postby księżycowy » 2018-07-16, 23:15

vijayjohn wrote:There is this, which I have in paperback

Is there audio for that textbook? [I just thought to check the previous page and saw your reply. :whistle: ]
How good is it?

vijayjohn wrote:A grammar. You already have it. ;)

*goes and checks*
*gets distracted with all the other junk in there*
*.......*
*.......*

Wait, what was I doing?
Looking for a Romani grammar, that's what! :P
*looks for handbook*
*finds handbook*
Looks worth getting to me.

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Re: Romani

Postby cHr0mChIk » 2018-07-16, 23:22

vijayjohn wrote::shock: That's weird. I thought it was supposed to be one particular variety of Vlax Romani (but I forget which, maybe Lovari?).


It's Vlax Romani for sure, at least. I'm not good at differentiating them well, at least not yet. Anyway, in the 2nd Dialogue, it's said: "Save Romendar san tu? - Me sem Kalderaši!" However, in the Grammar part - it seems to state all 3 (Kalderaš, Lovara, Gurbet) in these places when they differ, otherwise mostly uses common things (as it seems).

vijayjohn wrote:Maybe! Or maybe it's because of dialect contact or something - people who speak various dialects are constantly in contact, and maybe this also has had some effects on how they pronounce čh and ?


That could also be the case. :D Also, we know that also dialect mixing is another thing which occurs in Romani sometimes.

There is something I just noticed today. I believed that the nouns which we build from verbs/adjectives end with "-pe": such as "mangipe" (from mangel), "kam(l)ipe" (from kamel), "sastipe" (from sasto), "amalipe" (from amal), "xoxajpe/hovajpe/hovajbe" (from xoxavel/hovavel).

And then, I've noticed that these same things, you appear to say with "-imos" in Vlax: "kamlimos" (love); "sastimos" (health), brotimos (friendship), xoxaimos (lying)...

Is "-imos" the Vlax equivalent of the Balkan "-pe/be" ? Or have I gotten it all wrong. What is the difference between these two. I've always perceived it as the English suffixes "-ness" (such as healthiness) or "-tion" / "-ism"; or even "-ing" (the verbal noun forming suffix)...

Another thing which I wanted to ask:

vijayjohn wrote:Correct, but in Peter Bakker's "Etymological glossary of Indic words in Romani" he says...


Do you know how I could acquire this glossary? Is there somewhere I could buy it, or get it somehow?

I am planning to add a little bit of my own glossary at the end of the paper I'm writing - a glossary of the Romani terms and words I've used in the paper, and It'd be excellent to include their etymologies as well, so, such a glossary would be quite useful for that.

Also regarding Romani Etymology, I was able to get my hands on the Etymologica Zingarica by Endre Tálos. It was quite interesting, although it contains only 87 lexemes. It is not a dictionary/glossary on its own, but rather a commentary/correction/critic of previous etymological works, so it's more like merely a list of corrigenda. Tálos proposes a completely different etymology to the verb v(r)akerel. He Claims that "vakerel" comes from *(ala)va kerel, and that the form (v)rakerel actually comes from the diminutive "(alavo)ḍa kerel"... :hmm: :hmm:

Anyway, to me, the *vak(ya) & *pra-vak(ya) etymology seems waay more likely than "alava kerel"... but still.. I'm not competent at all to make such a statement (which one is correct and which one isn't)... :hmm: :hmm:

Have you seen this post of mine:

cHr0mChIk wrote:With every different Roma group I've came in contact with - they use a different word for morning. I was wondering about their etymologies:

* sabaj (they use this one in my city - it's from Turkish sabah - from Arabic صباح)
* tajsa/tasja/tajha/tahja (also means "tomorrow" - from Greek ταχιά)
* teharin (Bosnian Roma were saying this way. I don't know its etymology but I suspect it may also be from Greek)
* javin (found this one all over the literature... I have no clue about its etymology)
* raťaha (found this one in literature as well... seems like native Romani to me.. I suppose... :hmm: :hmm: )
* jutro/rano/zora (from Slavic)
* dimňaca (from Romanian - dimineaţă)
* zloko? (I guess Russian Roma say it this way - the Northern dialect group)
* carla (in Sinte)
* angloplane (Burgenland - along with raťaha)
* anglamismeri (in Lovara and Kalderaš - along with dimňaca and teharin - also used sometimes in Gurbet too)
* anglodilo (Slovak Romani)
* hajnalo (Lovara)
etc.


Could you browse for these words in that glossary? Anyway, it's not an urgent thing, and you don't have to bother if it's a lot of work.

That is currently the main thing I'm trying to figure out. Or, if you know etymologies for at least some of these words (the ones whose etymology I hadn't stated), could you do so?

Thank you again! And, also, I forgot to thank you for making that longer post. It was very appreciated. Thank you for dedicating your time to it. :D ov sasto! :)
وَقَالُوا لَن يَدْخُلَ الْجَنَّةَ إِلَّا مَن كَانَ هُودًا أَوْ نَصَارَىٰ ۗ تِلْكَ أَمَانِيُّهُمْ ۗ قُلْ هَاتُوا بُرْهَانَكُمْ إِن كُنتُمْ صَادِقِينَ
بَلَىٰ مَنْ أَسْلَمَ وَجْهَهُ لِلَّهِ وَهُوَ مُحْسِنٌ فَلَهُ أَجْرُهُ عِندَ رَبِّهِ وَلَا خَوْفٌ عَلَيْهِمْ وَلَا هُمْ يَحْزَنُونَ

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Re: Romani

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-07-17, 0:23

księżycowy wrote:Is there audio for that textbook? [I just thought to check the previous page and saw your reply. :whistle: ]

Oh, sorry, I meant to say "not that I know of" earlier but forgot. :(
How good is it?

It's okay, I guess, although I think I kind of prefer just relying on notes I took from my advisor's undergrad class on Romani. I wouldn't mind sharing these notes except that I'm hesitant about sharing stuff he taught his class behind his back since I don't want to make him feel like I'm betraying him or anything :para: even though he's probably fine with it lol. :silly:
vijayjohn wrote:A grammar. You already have it. ;)

*goes and checks*
*gets distracted with all the other junk in there*
*.......*
*.......*

Wait, what was I doing?
Looking for a Romani grammar, that's what! :P

:lol:
cHr0mChIk wrote:And then, I've noticed that these same things, you appear to say with "-imos" in Vlax: "kamlimos" (love); "sastimos" (health), brotimos (friendship), xoxaimos (lying)...

I think we have both -imos and -pe where -imos is from Byzantine Greek and -pe is Indic.
vijayjohn wrote:Correct, but in Peter Bakker's "Etymological glossary of Indic words in Romani" he says...


Do you know how I could acquire this glossary? Is there somewhere I could buy it, or get it somehow?

I'm not aware of a way that you could, sorry. :(

Oh, and apparently, I was wrong about the author and it's Mathias Metzger and not Peter Bakker?? :shock: Oh well.

However, if you didn't already know, there is at least Turner's Comparative Dictionary of Indo-Aryan Languages, which includes at least a few dozen Romani words for sure, and you can search it online for free!
Also regarding Romani Etymology, I was able to get my hands on the Etymologica Zingarica by Endre Tálos.

Yeah, I had access to this for a while through Ian. I'm pretty sure he told me both that it wasn't too reliable and that the author is not Romani. (Endre Tálos's remark about alava kerel is probably a good example of something Ian would consider unreliable and false).
Have you seen this post of mine:

Oh yeah, I think I did but skipped over it. Sorry!
cHr0mChIk wrote:With every different Roma group I've came in contact with - they use a different word for morning. I was wondering about their etymologies:

* sabaj (they use this one in my city - it's from Turkish sabah - from Arabic صباح)
* tajsa/tasja/tajha/tahja (also means "tomorrow" - from Greek ταχιά)
* teharin (Bosnian Roma were saying this way. I don't know its etymology but I suspect it may also be from Greek)
* javin (found this one all over the literature... I have no clue about its etymology)
* raťaha (found this one in literature as well... seems like native Romani to me.. I suppose... :hmm: :hmm: )
* jutro/rano/zora (from Slavic)
* dimňaca (from Romanian - dimineaţă)
* zloko? (I guess Russian Roma say it this way - the Northern dialect group)
* carla (in Sinte)
* angloplane (Burgenland - along with raťaha)
* anglamismeri (in Lovara and Kalderaš - along with dimňaca and teharin - also used sometimes in Gurbet too)
* anglodilo (Slovak Romani)
* hajnalo (Lovara)
etc.


Could you browse for these words in that glossary? Anyway, it's not an urgent thing, and you don't have to bother if it's a lot of work.

Hmm...I don't recall seeing most of these before, tbh. I've definitely seen tehàra with the meaning 'tomorrow', and I'm pretty sure I've also seen tajsa with this meaning. My glossary says "perh[aps] (though not very likely) [from] *tã-divasa- (cf. T[urner] 5650 *taddivasam 'on that day'). Tehàra is also of uncertain etymology, although Ian once proposed a similar Indic etymology for it in one of those lists I no longer seem to have. Angloplane, anglamismeri, and anglodilo all look like compounds with angle 'in front of'...mismeri is probably from Greek (compare σήμερα símera 'today', so I guess anglamismeri is something like 'the day in front of today'?).
Thank you again! And, also, I forgot to thank you for making that longer post. It was very appreciated. Thank you for dedicating your time to it. :D ov sasto! :)

Naj soske! :)

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Re: Romani

Postby księżycowy » 2018-07-17, 0:31

vijayjohn wrote:It's okay, I guess, although I think I kind of prefer just relying on notes I took from my advisor's undergrad class on Romani.

That's right. What was I thinking? We all know how weird you are with how you learn languages. :silly:

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Re: Romani

Postby cHr0mChIk » 2018-07-17, 0:55

vijayjohn wrote:It's okay, I guess, although I think I kind of prefer just relying on notes I took from my advisor's undergrad class on Romani. I wouldn't mind sharing these notes except that I'm hesitant about sharing stuff he taught his class behind his back since I don't want to make him feel like I'm betraying him or anything :para: even though he's probably fine with it lol. :silly:


Could you ask him about it :lol: :lol: :lol:

vijayjohn wrote:I think we have both -imos and -pe where -imos is from Byzantine Greek and -pe is Indic.


Makes sense!

vijayjohn wrote:However, if you didn't already know, there is at least Turner's Comparative Dictionary of Indo-Aryan Languages, which includes at least a few dozen Romani words for sure, and you can search it online for free!


I know about it and yeah I've used it a lot. However, the problematic thing is that it only contains Indic words (duh :lol:) and the amount of Romani words included is very little.

vijayjohn wrote:Yeah, I had access to this for a while through Ian. I'm pretty sure he told me both that it wasn't too reliable and that the author is not Romani. (Endre Tálos's remark about alava kerel is probably a good example of something Ian would consider unreliable and false).


Yeah, I totally get what you mean... when even I as a layman can see problematic things with it :lol: :lol:

vijayjohn wrote:Hmm...I don't recall seeing most of these before, tbh. I've definitely seen tehàra with the meaning 'tomorrow', and I'm pretty sure I've also seen tajsa with this meaning. My glossary says "perh[aps] (though not very likely) [from] *tã-divasa- (cf. T[urner] 5650 *taddivasam 'on that day'). Tehàra is also of uncertain etymology, although Ian once proposed a similar Indic etymology for it in one of those lists I no longer seem to have. Angloplane, anglamismeri, and anglodilo all look like compounds with angle 'in front of'...mismeri is probably from Greek (compare σήμερα símera 'today', so I guess anglamismeri is something like 'the day in front of today'?).


Thank you very much for your input! I will continue my quest for tracing these words :lol:

Oh, another thing:

vijayjohn wrote:Vi Tu te aves baxtalo! But baxt thaj sastipe :)


I was confused by the "vi"... never encountered it before. I just searched and it appears that this is how you say "also"... interesting... We would use "em" instead. We use "em" for both purposes (both your "thaj" and "vi"). We also have a Slavic loanword "isto" (which means "as well"), which, I guess can also be used... but it can even be used along with "em" (Em tu isto... te oveja baxtalo for example...). I think Bugurdžije also have something like kiďal instead of "isto" - so it'd be something like em/thaj tu kiďal!...
وَقَالُوا لَن يَدْخُلَ الْجَنَّةَ إِلَّا مَن كَانَ هُودًا أَوْ نَصَارَىٰ ۗ تِلْكَ أَمَانِيُّهُمْ ۗ قُلْ هَاتُوا بُرْهَانَكُمْ إِن كُنتُمْ صَادِقِينَ
بَلَىٰ مَنْ أَسْلَمَ وَجْهَهُ لِلَّهِ وَهُوَ مُحْسِنٌ فَلَهُ أَجْرُهُ عِندَ رَبِّهِ وَلَا خَوْفٌ عَلَيْهِمْ وَلَا هُمْ يَحْزَنُونَ

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Re: Romani

Postby cHr0mChIk » 2018-07-17, 3:27

vijayjohn wrote:Hmm...I don't recall seeing most of these before, tbh. I've definitely seen tehàra with the meaning 'tomorrow', and I'm pretty sure I've also seen tajsa with this meaning. My glossary says "perh[aps] (though not very likely) [from] *tã-divasa- (cf. T[urner] 5650 *taddivasam 'on that day'). Tehàra is also of uncertain etymology, although Ian once proposed a similar Indic etymology for it in one of those lists I no longer seem to have. Angloplane, anglamismeri, and anglodilo all look like compounds with angle 'in front of'...mismeri is probably from Greek (compare σήμερα símera 'today', so I guess anglamismeri is something like 'the day in front of today'?).


*taddivasam > *tajsa - seems quite unlikely. What kind of sound changes would give that result. I believe that it's waaay more likely and logical that it comes from greek taxiá (tomorrow, morning).

Yeah, I know the etymology of these 3 compound words at the end. I don't know of the rest.

Although "anglo/angle" indeed means "in front of", it also means "before":
Angloplane = anglo (before) + plane (noon)
Anglamismeri = anglo (before) + mismeri (noon) - [mismeri is the standard word for noon in Vlax Romani]
Anglodilo = anglo (before) + dilo (noon, midday) - [don't be confused with dilo (fool), they sound the same but their etymologies are different]

So basically these words mean "forenoon" (prepodne).
وَقَالُوا لَن يَدْخُلَ الْجَنَّةَ إِلَّا مَن كَانَ هُودًا أَوْ نَصَارَىٰ ۗ تِلْكَ أَمَانِيُّهُمْ ۗ قُلْ هَاتُوا بُرْهَانَكُمْ إِن كُنتُمْ صَادِقِينَ
بَلَىٰ مَنْ أَسْلَمَ وَجْهَهُ لِلَّهِ وَهُوَ مُحْسِنٌ فَلَهُ أَجْرُهُ عِندَ رَبِّهِ وَلَا خَوْفٌ عَلَيْهِمْ وَلَا هُمْ يَحْزَنُونَ

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Re: Romani

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-07-17, 3:47

księżycowy wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:It's okay, I guess, although I think I kind of prefer just relying on notes I took from my advisor's undergrad class on Romani.

That's right. What was I thinking? We all know how weird you are with how you learn languages. :silly:

That's true, I do have weird language-learning approaches. I mean, currently, my approach is to start study groups for all kinds of languages I'm not even seriously trying to study while simultaneously also trying to seriously study like 30 languages (with only very partial overlap)...:lol:
cHr0mChIk wrote:Could you ask him about it :lol: :lol: :lol:

Maybe I should, but I've also already been sharing all these notes from a seminar he gave about Krio, the language of Sierra Leone! :silly:
However, the problematic thing is that it only contains Indic words (duh :lol:) and the amount of Romani words included is very little.

Yeah :doggy:
I was confused by the "vi"... never encountered it before. I just searched and it appears that this is how you say "also"... interesting... We would use "em" instead. We use "em" for both purposes (both your "thaj" and "vi").

Yeah, vi is Indic and identical to the Punjabi word for 'also'. :D I've also seen it being used to mean 'and' as well. When I first saw a Rom write something to me that began with vi Tu... I was confused, too, even though I actually knew that word by then. :lol:
*taddivasam > *tajsa - seems quite unlikely. What kind of sound changes would give that result.

Lenition on steroids :silly:
I believe that it's waaay more likely and logical that it comes from greek taxiá (tomorrow, morning).

Yeah, I agree. :lol:
Yeah, I know the etymology of these 3 compound words at the end. I don't know of the rest.

Although "anglo/angle" indeed means "in front of", it also means "before":
Angloplane = anglo (before) + plane (noon)
Anglamismeri = anglo (before) + mismeri (noon) - [mismeri is the standard word for noon in Vlax Romani]
Anglodilo = anglo (before) + dilo (noon, midday) - [don't be confused with dilo (fool), they sound the same but their etymologies are different]

So basically these words mean "forenoon" (prepodne).

Interesting, it looks like they're all calques on prepodne (or maybe on similar forms in other Slavic languages?)!

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Re: Romani

Postby cHr0mChIk » 2018-07-19, 4:56

vijayjohn wrote:Yeah, vi is Indic and identical to the Punjabi word for 'also'. :D I've also seen it being used to mean 'and' as well. When I first saw a Rom write something to me that began with vi Tu... I was confused, too, even though I actually knew that word by then. :lol:


Oh yeah... cool! I haven't realized it... It's like urdu "bhi". Awesome. :D

vijayjohn wrote:Interesting, it looks like they're all calques on prepodne (or maybe on similar forms in other Slavic languages?)!


Yeah, that's true, indeed. I'd say they're calques of "prepodne" mostly IMO (or eventually some other Slavic like perhaps: Slovak dopoludnia/doobeda; or Bulgarian predobed)... I guess these are mainly the Slavic languages with which the Roma have came into contact.

Or eventually it could be from a non-Slavic language, like Magyar délelőtt, etc.

* sabaj (from Turkish sabah - from Arabic صباح)
* tajsa/tasja/tajha/tahja (from Greek ταχιά)
* teharin (???)
* javin (???)
* raťaha (???)
* jutro/rano/zora (from Slavic)
* dimňaca (from Romanian - dimineaţă)
* zloko? (???)
* carla (???)
* angloplane/anglamismeri/anglodilo (calques of "prepodne")
* hajnalo (???)


I've been contemplating these a bit :lol: and I believe teharin may be connected to tahja, since I've also seen the forms tajsala, tasjarla, tesarla, tesara, tosara, tesara, tehara, teharin, tahrin, tharin, etc. - in my opinion they might all come from a single root.. and it may be ταχιά :hmm: :hmm: :hmm:

Could javin possibly come from Turkish yarın (tomorrow), is that a possible sound change?

Hmm.. raťaha :hmm: sounds like some sort of a compound of the word rat- (night) hmm something like "after+night?" possibly?

carla must be something German, innit? :hmm: but I don't know any German words similar to *zarla ?

hajnalo *facepalm emoji* :lol: it's Hungarian... how come I didn't figure that out earlier...


Another thing I wanted to ask: it's about the word "help" (both a noun and a verb) How would you say so? Here, there's no other words than "pomoć" and "pomožinel"... and I believe that in almost every country where Roma live, they use a loanword from that language. How would you say these words, and are there multiple ways of saying/expressing it using some words or phrases? Do you know any native (pre-European.. preferably Indic) word for such? Or perhaps a native phrase which would be analogous to that meaning? Thank you again! :D
وَقَالُوا لَن يَدْخُلَ الْجَنَّةَ إِلَّا مَن كَانَ هُودًا أَوْ نَصَارَىٰ ۗ تِلْكَ أَمَانِيُّهُمْ ۗ قُلْ هَاتُوا بُرْهَانَكُمْ إِن كُنتُمْ صَادِقِينَ
بَلَىٰ مَنْ أَسْلَمَ وَجْهَهُ لِلَّهِ وَهُوَ مُحْسِنٌ فَلَهُ أَجْرُهُ عِندَ رَبِّهِ وَلَا خَوْفٌ عَلَيْهِمْ وَلَا هُمْ يَحْزَنُونَ

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Re: Romani

Postby cHr0mChIk » 2018-07-25, 20:18

* sabaj (from Turkish sabah - from Arabic صباح)
* tajsa/tasja/tajha/tahja/tajsala/tasjarla/tesarla/tesara/tosara/tesara/tehara/teharin/tahrin/tharin (from Greek ταχιά)
* javin (???)
* raťaha (from rat [night] + a suffix?)
* jutro/rano/zora (from Slavic)
* dimňaca (from Romanian - dimineaţă)
* zloko? (???)
* carla (???)
* angloplane/anglamismeri/anglodilo (calques of "prepodne")
* hajnalo (from Hungarian hajnal)


cHr0mChIk wrote:Could javin possibly come from Turkish yarın (tomorrow), is that a possible sound change?


According to Cech & Heinschink (1999): "javin" comes from Old Indic *yaminî

cHr0mChIk wrote:Hmm.. raťaha :hmm: sounds like some sort of a compound of the word rat- (night) hmm something like "after+night?" possibly?


According to Elšik & Matras (2006): "Western Central dialects have lexicalised the "sociative" raťaha of the noun 'night' to mean 'in the morning', via the reading 'with the passing night'."

cHr0mChIk wrote:carla must be something German, innit? :hmm: but I don't know any German words similar to *zarla ?


*another facepalm* what is wrong with me.. I wrote in the previous post that one of the variations of the word "tahja/tahrin" is "tesarla" ! Haven't I noticed the obvious connection of "tesarla" with "carla"? :roll:

Now the only thing I'm wondering about is "zloko" :hmm: :hmm:

cHr0mChIk wrote:Another thing I wanted to ask: it's about the word "help" (both a noun and a verb) How would you say so? Here, there's no other words than "pomoć" and "pomožinel"... and I believe that in almost every country where Roma live, they use a loanword from that language. How would you say these words, and are there multiple ways of saying/expressing it using some words or phrases? Do you know any native (pre-European.. preferably Indic) word for such? Or perhaps a native phrase which would be analogous to that meaning? Thank you again! :D


Native phrase which I had in mind is "del vast". That is the only non-loaned way of saying "to help" which comes into my mind.
وَقَالُوا لَن يَدْخُلَ الْجَنَّةَ إِلَّا مَن كَانَ هُودًا أَوْ نَصَارَىٰ ۗ تِلْكَ أَمَانِيُّهُمْ ۗ قُلْ هَاتُوا بُرْهَانَكُمْ إِن كُنتُمْ صَادِقِينَ
بَلَىٰ مَنْ أَسْلَمَ وَجْهَهُ لِلَّهِ وَهُوَ مُحْسِنٌ فَلَهُ أَجْرُهُ عِندَ رَبِّهِ وَلَا خَوْفٌ عَلَيْهِمْ وَلَا هُمْ يَحْزَنُونَ

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Re: Romani

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-08-05, 0:55

Ratjaha sounds like it might mean 'with night' in Sinti or something. The only word I know for 'to help' in Romani is obviously from Romanian: žuti- (from a ajuta). :P

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Re: Romani

Postby cHr0mChIk » 2018-08-05, 2:38

vijayjohn wrote:Ratjaha sounds like it might mean 'with night' in Sinti or something.


Yep, indeed. That's what I said in the previous post. "Sociative" = "Instrumental" case (at least in the case of Romani). Every language I've heard of (except for Hungarian), uses Instrumental for the Sociative function.

vijayjohn wrote:The only word I know for 'to help' in Romani is obviously from Romanian: žuti- (from a ajuta). :P


Yeah... As I said, this is another one of these words... I've used it as an example in the paper I've been writing as well... Verbs such as "to think"; "to write"; "to help" and "to live" are mostly used as loanwords in almost every country where the Roma live. I've made a little chart in my paper. I can share a little snippet of it here:


English"Pure Romani"Slavic-Influenced RomaniRomanian-Influenced Romani
(e.g. Kalderaš)
Hungarian-Influenced Romani
(e.g. South-Central Romani)
Turkish-Influenced Romani
(e.g. Sepečides)
German-Influenced Romani
(e.g. Sinti)
"to think"del goďimislinelgîndisarelgondolineldüšündineldenkarel
"to help"del va[st]pomozinel[a]žutisarelšegítineljardîmi kerelhelferel

etc.

I've came across each one of these.

* sabaj (from Turkish sabah - from Arabic صباح)
* tajsa/tasja/tajha/tahja/tasjarla/tsarla/tesara/tehara/teharin/tharin (from Greek ταχιά)
* javin (from Old Indic *yaminî)
* raťaha (lit. "with the night")
* jutro/rano/zora (from Slavic)
* dimňaca (from Romanian - dimineaţă)
* zloko? (???)
* angloplane/anglamismeri/anglodilo (calques of "prepodne")
* hajnalo (from Hungarian hajnal)


I've posted on a Russian Roma forum about the zloko and asked about their opinion, and I've been told that it must be a Slavic loanword. They said it might have connection with the verb "izlaziti" or the noun "izlazak (sunca)" (Serbo-Croatianism). It must have come through the "Servika" Roma then (which are believed to have come there from Serbia). :hmm: :hmm:

I've been trying to find more literature on the Finnish Romani (Kalo / Kale - or how it's called). I've been able to come across some literature, however I still couldn't find what I was looking for... Does anyone know any literature on Finnish Romani?

I've came across the "Finnish Romani" by K. Vuorela and L. Borin.
Also, "A Corpus of Written Finnish Romani Texts" by L. Borin.
However, I didn't find all what I were looking for in there.
وَقَالُوا لَن يَدْخُلَ الْجَنَّةَ إِلَّا مَن كَانَ هُودًا أَوْ نَصَارَىٰ ۗ تِلْكَ أَمَانِيُّهُمْ ۗ قُلْ هَاتُوا بُرْهَانَكُمْ إِن كُنتُمْ صَادِقِينَ
بَلَىٰ مَنْ أَسْلَمَ وَجْهَهُ لِلَّهِ وَهُوَ مُحْسِنٌ فَلَهُ أَجْرُهُ عِندَ رَبِّهِ وَلَا خَوْفٌ عَلَيْهِمْ وَلَا هُمْ يَحْزَنُونَ

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Re: Romani

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-08-28, 5:45

Sorry, I forgot to reply to this post, but I don't think I can remember any specific resources for Finnish Romani! :doggy:

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Re: Romani

Postby cHr0mChIk » 2018-09-28, 19:16

I've been translating some songs, and I decided to post them here, just to keep the thread from dying :lol: :lol:

That is just in the meantime, until I get back to Romani.

Most of these songs I've already uploaded on this site.



1. Si la kale bal [She's got black hair]

Original version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLwpJHFG7O4
Gypsy Jazz version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHOLedrzzTw

Jekha čhaja, daje,
Lele, me mangav.
Oj si but šuži
Sar god rakljori (original version)
Ka ovel mi romni (Gypsy-jazz version)

Refren:
Si la kale bal
Aj zelena jakha
Me mangav la, daje
Kaj si but šukar (original)
Lake ka merav (Gypsy-jazz)

Sila kale bal
Aj šukar jakha
Me mangav la, daje
Ola me ka lav

Kad dikhel man, daje
Sar o kham tato
Sar o kham tato
Me sem baxtalo (x2)

Refren.

Oj phučel man, daje (original)
Mi čhori, phučel man (Gypsy-jazz)
Dal' ka lav la me
Te li lev la me
Čhori ka merel (original)
Darav ka merel (Gypsy-jazz)

Bijav ka kerav
Muzika ka lav
Muzika ka lav
Aj, ka pokinav

Refren.
One girl, o mother,
Oh, I love so much.
She is so beautiful,
More than any other woman (original)
She'll be my wife (Gypsy-jazz)

Chorus:
She's got black hair
And green eyes
I love her, o mother
'cause she's so beautiful (original)
I will die for her (Gypsy-jazz)

She's got black hair,
And beautiful eyes
I love her, o mother
I am gonna take her (as my wife)

When she looks at me, o mother,
All the sun shines
All the sun shines
And I am happy (x2)

Chorus.

She asked me, o mother (original)
Poor one, asked me (Gypsy-jazz)
Whether I will take her
If I don't take her
The poor one will die (original)
I'm afraid, she will die (Gypsy-jazz)

I will make a wedding
And I'll get the music
And I'll get the music
And pay for it

Chorus.



2. I barval phudela [The wind is blowing]

Original version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8RGHPLEF0Lo
Gypsy-jazz version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3E3vDRGk47A

I barval phudela, čhaje
O bršim perela
Me tut džakerava, čhaje
Mande te ave.

Aaa, tuke ka merav
Eee, so na aveja?

Sa banđovav pe ulica
Tut me džakerava
A tu na aveja, čhaje
Tuke ka merav

Aaa, tuke ka merav
Eee, so na aveja?

Dikhava tut sar aveja,
Te mande asaja.
Me prastava angle tute,
Te čumide man.

Aaa, tuke ka merav
Eee, so na aveja?

Pe ulica terđovava,
A tu na aveja.
So na aveja, čhaje, mori?
Tuke me merav.

Aaa, tuke ka merav
Eee, so na aveja?
The wind is blowing, o girl
The rain is falling.
I am waiting for you, o girl
To come to me.

Aah, I will die because of you
Eeh, why don't you come?

I'm here getting crooked on the street
Waiting for you
And you're not coming, o girl
I'm gonna die because of you

Aah, I will die because of you
Eeh, why don't you come?

I see you coming (in my dream),
And smiling at me.
I'm running towards you,
To kiss me.

Aah, I will die because of you
Eeh, why don't you come?

I'm standing on the street,
And you're not coming.
Why don't you come, o girl
I'm dying because of you.

Aah, I will die because of you
Eeh, why don't you come?
وَقَالُوا لَن يَدْخُلَ الْجَنَّةَ إِلَّا مَن كَانَ هُودًا أَوْ نَصَارَىٰ ۗ تِلْكَ أَمَانِيُّهُمْ ۗ قُلْ هَاتُوا بُرْهَانَكُمْ إِن كُنتُمْ صَادِقِينَ
بَلَىٰ مَنْ أَسْلَمَ وَجْهَهُ لِلَّهِ وَهُوَ مُحْسِنٌ فَلَهُ أَجْرُهُ عِندَ رَبِّهِ وَلَا خَوْفٌ عَلَيْهِمْ وَلَا هُمْ يَحْزَنُونَ

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Re: Romani

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-10-03, 2:46

Thanks for these songs (and your post)! :)

Does "tuke" in the second song really mean 'because of you'? Is there a reason why it can't just mean 'for you'?

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Re: Romani

Postby cHr0mChIk » 2018-10-03, 2:57

vijayjohn wrote:Thanks for these songs (and your post)! :)


You're welcome! I could do some more when I have time, if you'd like, and if you think that this thread is okay for that. I guess we've been using it for all things Romani on this forum, and I don't mind that at all. :D

vijayjohn wrote:Does "tuke" in the second song really mean 'because of you'? Is there a reason why it can't just mean 'for you'?


Literally translated, it just means "I'll die of you". It can be interpreted as both "for you" and "because of you", however, I believe that "because of you" fits better in this context. It's like, I will die because of the things you're causing me. I will die because you're not coming. "I'll die for you" could rather mean if they're together and they're lovers, and he tells her "Oh baby, I love you so much, I'll even die for you" - however, in the context of the song, he is suffering, so I'd say "because" is a better fit. Since he is dying because of what she has caused.
وَقَالُوا لَن يَدْخُلَ الْجَنَّةَ إِلَّا مَن كَانَ هُودًا أَوْ نَصَارَىٰ ۗ تِلْكَ أَمَانِيُّهُمْ ۗ قُلْ هَاتُوا بُرْهَانَكُمْ إِن كُنتُمْ صَادِقِينَ
بَلَىٰ مَنْ أَسْلَمَ وَجْهَهُ لِلَّهِ وَهُوَ مُحْسِنٌ فَلَهُ أَجْرُهُ عِندَ رَبِّهِ وَلَا خَوْفٌ عَلَيْهِمْ وَلَا هُمْ يَحْزَنُونَ

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Re: Romani

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-10-09, 4:01

Najis Tuke!
cHr0mChIk wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:Thanks for these songs (and your post)! :)


You're welcome! I could do some more when I have time, if you'd like, and if you think that this thread is okay for that. I guess we've been using it for all things Romani on this forum, and I don't mind that at all. :D

Sure! :)

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Re: Romani

Postby cHr0mChIk » 2018-10-14, 0:35

Just a couple of notes:

cHr0mChIk wrote: I asked them to translate for me sentences which have in them every possible grammatical case I could think of, even the ones which don't exist in my language.. like for example "The sun is shining = O kham sijil"; "I am moving away from the sun = Me našav taro khamehtar..." etc.


"O kham sijil." - "sijil" is a Vlax verb, since in Balkan dialects we add an infix "-in-" for loaned verbs. Such verb would be "sijinela" in Balkan Romani. The Bosnian Gypsies with whom I spoke there, were speaking the Gurbet dialect (Southern Vlax).
"O kham sijinela." / "O kham sijajinela." is the Balkan Romani variant of this sentence.

"Me našav taro khamehtar." - "našav" is Vlax, in Balkan Romani, our present tense ends with -a; except in cases when it's followed by a pronoun ("tu dikheja" but "tu dikhe man"). Also, "khamehtar" is the Gurbet Ablative case. Gurbet Romani is one of those dialects which replace "s" with "h". In most other dialects, Ablative case suffix is "-estar".
Balkan Romani: "Me našava taro khamestar."

cHr0mChIk wrote:Muslim Gypsies from my city were having a completely different verb "to be" conjugation which I saw for the first time there:
"me injum, tu injan, vov isi..."


*ov isi
(Vlax Roma use "vov"; Balkan Roma use "ov").

cHr0mChIk wrote:phonetic differences - "ć/đ" or "kj/gj"
vaćarav / vakjarav?
ćerav / kerav?
đilabav / giljabav?


*vaćerav
*giljavav

cHr0mChIk wrote:phonetic differences - "o" or "e" in past tense
is it "kerđom" or "kerđem" (because I think I've seen some varieties say it with e as well)...


Vlax dialects say "kerdem"; however Non-Vlax dialects have an "o" instead: "kerdom".
Most dialects actually palatalize the "d" and "k", so the pronunciation of it greatly varies across dialects.
► Show Spoiler


Our dialect pronounces it as "ḱerǵum" (kjergjum), though.

cHr0mChIk wrote:like in the song "dželjem, dželjem" or however it's said, the anthem of Gypsies :D


The song is actually "đelem, đelem" and not "dželem, dželem", although in infinitive this verb is indeed "džal". This is one of those irregular verbs. In present tense, it has a "dž" (me džav, tu dža, vov džal), but in past tense, it has a "g" (me geljom, tu geljan, vov gelja) - this is analogous to the Urdu verb "jaana", which is "gaya" in the past tense. This is one of those cases of Palatalization: g -> gj -> đ; that's why it's "đelem".
In the Balkan Romani, this would be "geljum, geljum" [ǵeľum, ǵeľum].

cHr0mChIk wrote:I thought that "h" became "s".

Actually, "s" is older; and "s" became "h". That is the case mainly in Sinte and Gurbet Romani dialects.
► Show Spoiler


cHr0mChIk wrote:I always believed that there is no distinction between the forms with or without vowels (me džanav / džanava; tu džane / džaneja; vov džanel / džanela), however, Gypsies from my city told me that the forms with a are feminine forms... interesting...


They were wrong, there is no distinction. "džanav" is the Vlax form, "džanava" is the Balkan form.

cHr0mChIk wrote:The Bosnian Gypsies told me stomach is "poh" in their dialect, and they also wrote it that way.. I'm not sure whether it's "h" or "x", though...


It's most certainly "pox", since it's the devoiced form of "poř / porr".

cHr0mChIk wrote:How do you say the verb "to understand" ?


The Vlax word for it is "xaťarel", and the Balkan word is "haľovel" - it is one of the words used for differentiating and determining dialects.
► Show Spoiler


vijayjohn wrote:Interesting; for me, ogi means something more like 'soul'.


Actually, peř means "stomach", as the stomach outside (belly) [in Serbian: "stomak"]; however [v]oǵi means stomach as on the inside - the internal organ [in Serbian: "želudac"]. In the secondary, more metaphorical usage, this word means soul.
It can create ambiguities, though, since, in the Northern Arli (the one they speak in Northern Serbia, and where I am from), the loanword "duša" is used as the only word for "soul", while "[v]ođi" is only used to mean stomach (želudac).

vijayjohn wrote:lačho [ɫaˈʂo] = good
mišto = great
šukar = beautiful (but I've also seen it used to mean 'good', at least in some varieties of Romani :))


In here, "lačho" and "mišto" are only used by Vlax Roma; while Balkan Roma use "šukar" for all three (good, great, nice, and okay - as in conformation) - and "šužo" for "beautiful".

cHr0mChIk wrote:Have you also heard of "hem" / "em" ? Is it maybe used with a different meaning?... hmm


It is used with the same meaning. "Thaj" is Vlax, while "(h)em" is Balkan. Balkan dialects use a lot of Turkish loanwords, where some of them they have completely replaced the native words.
► Show Spoiler


cHr0mChIk wrote:I meant the word "khali" (with "kh"). It has a similar meaning as phuv and them. Here, "them" and "phuv" are considered synonyms because in Serbian, they're both translated as "zemlja". "Khali" is translated as zemlja as well.


Okay this word may not exist. When I were in Slovakia and just started to learn Romani, that is one of the words I've written in my notebook, with the meaning "zemlja". I believe it was told to me by the Serbian Romani girl. However, I've never encountered it again and I haven't been able to find it in any dictionary, nor in any text. It's been a very long time since I wrote the word. Perhaps it was a mistake. I was absolutely sure that this word exists, however, since I wasn't able to find any reference to it anywhere, it may just be a mistake.

cHr0mChIk wrote:Oh cool, I actually thought so. Here, everybody (all 4 variants) were saying "razumil". However, Gypsies from here, although mostly using razumil as well, told me that the proper Gypsy way of saying "to understand" is "haljovel" (not sure whether it's with x or h... here Gypsies don't distinguish them in pronunciation)...


*razuminel
Vlaxs say "razumil", while Balkan Roma say "razuminela" (Bugurdžije say "razumizla" though - since they use an -iz- infix instead of the Arli -in-).

vijayjohn wrote:The neck, throat = e korr


In our dialect, the neck is "vrato", and throat is "grlo".
There is also the more proper word "men", which means "neck".

cHr0mChIk wrote:sky = ćeri / dela... Bosnian Gypsies said: oblakuri


The sky is "nebo". Both "ćeri" and "dela" are Vlax. Balkan uses only "nebo".

cHr0mChIk wrote:word = lafe (hmm I've never heard of "svato"). Some also use "alav" as word. I'm not sure whether it comes from "lafe" with an additional "a" in the beginning (like in anav, ašunav, etc.), or whether it comes from "anav" (name), because I think I've heard people saying it as "alav" in some dialects... hmm


*lafi and not lafe. That was either a typo or a mistake from me. Native Romani word for "word" is "(a)lav"; and "name" is "(a)nav". Some dialects mix these, or use one or the other for both (such as Sinte).
Non-Balkan dialects use either "(a)lav" or loanwords (such as svato, vorba, duma, etc.);
while Balkan dialects use "lafi". The word "lafi" could have either came from "(a)lav"; or perhaps from Turkish "laf", which is perhaps even more likely.

cHr0mChIk wrote:I remember reading in literature that Romani dialects can be divided in 2 groups: the one with "e" vowel and the one with "o"


Yep, I read that in the book Roma in Europe by JP Liégeois.

cHr0mChIk wrote:Here it's:
rungjum/runđum
sukjum/sućum

although, in present tense:
me rovav; me sovav


Actually, I believe there is no "n":
"rugjum/ruđum" is the past tense of the verb "rovel".
"sukjum/sućum" is the past tense of the verb "sovel".

cHr0mChIk wrote:
Trin phrala sas sine, kaj tradine (džalje?) putujinena ande e lumja o sveto, te šaj kerena penge cikna love hari pare. Kana sas te džantar ked valjani te džana, phengja e kavrenge javrenge o najphuro phral: "Šunen, m'e phralale, dža svako po pesko drom pe trin riga, hem palo jekh berš te arakhljam amen pe sa akava odova isto drom kaj sijam akana!" Le kaver E javera phrala dingje pengo lafe lafi lengero te akava isi so te kerena.

Palo jekh berš, arakhlje pale len, sa pe akava drom. O najphuro phral zaradinđa andolela ćilimi, o maškaruno dikhlo ogledalo, hem o najterno phral zaradinđa jabuka andolela phabaj. Li trin stvari kaj zaradinđe sas bhut čudni I trin bukja kaj andolje sine but čudne. O najphuro phral pučhlja phučlja peske phralendar so von zaradinđe andolje, hem o maškaruno mothodja odgovoringja: "Zaradinđum andoljum me jekh dikhlo ogledalo, hem ande akava dikhlo ogledalo, šaj te dikheja sae so kerena ande le aver država phuvja!" Li duj phrala phengje: "Šuži! (or "Šukar!")"


As you can see, my Romani improved a lot in the past year :lol: :lol: :lol:
وَقَالُوا لَن يَدْخُلَ الْجَنَّةَ إِلَّا مَن كَانَ هُودًا أَوْ نَصَارَىٰ ۗ تِلْكَ أَمَانِيُّهُمْ ۗ قُلْ هَاتُوا بُرْهَانَكُمْ إِن كُنتُمْ صَادِقِينَ
بَلَىٰ مَنْ أَسْلَمَ وَجْهَهُ لِلَّهِ وَهُوَ مُحْسِنٌ فَلَهُ أَجْرُهُ عِندَ رَبِّهِ وَلَا خَوْفٌ عَلَيْهِمْ وَلَا هُمْ يَحْزَنُونَ


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