Kazakh (Қазақ тілі)

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hyc
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Re: Kazakh (Қазақ тілі)

Postby hyc » 2008-10-05, 14:27

I've reorganized things on my web page a bit; the 3 documents are now in a subdirectory:
http://highlandsun.com/hyc/Kazakh/

I made a start at both of the Peace Corps manuals, but I probably won't bother to finish the 1992 document. The only reason I mention this now, while things are still so incomplete, is that I found a cursive Cyrillic font and added the Kazakh-specific characters to the font. You can get it from my page as well. I also searched all over the web for a decent image of the Kazakh national emblem; most of them were too small. (Yeah yeah I know, I'm wasting all my time on these peripheral details when I should actually be reading and studying the *content*...)

I'll be flying to Kazakhstan in December; I hope to have finished all of the material in the 1995 manual before then. I've also downloaded one or two lists from the http://www.byki.com free lessons. Too bad that only runs on Windows...

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Re: Kazakh (Қазақ тілі)

Postby akilbek » 2008-10-05, 19:01

Wow! You're doing a great job! Thank you so much from all of us who love the Kazakh language. If I have time I'll try to go over the courses after you've finished them and point out any typos in the Cyrillic text I find.

hyc wrote:I also searched all over the web for a decent image of the Kazakh national emblem; most of them were too small.


Kazakhstan's national emblem is awful. I call it 'the pig's face'. :) It was created in the early post-Soviet times when the notion of Kazakhstani national identity wasn't developed yet (well, that's the case even today). As the result, Kazakhstan ended up with a funny less professional version of the old Kazakh SSR emblem. Bottom line: yeah, don't bother searching for a higher resolution image... :D

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Re: Kazakh (Қазақ тілі)

Postby zhiguli » 2008-10-06, 3:53

do we have a native speaker here?
welcome to the site, akilbek, hope you'll stick around.

akilbek wrote:Wow! You're doing a great job! Thank you so much from all of us who love the Kazakh language.


and i second this. as i'll soon be pulling the plug on my own site your work is all the more important.

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Re: Kazakh (Қазақ тілі)

Postby hyc » 2008-10-06, 4:17

Pulling the plug on your web site? Why? Would it be worthwhile to make a copy of your stuff on my web site?

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Re: Kazakh (Қазақ тілі)

Postby hyc » 2008-10-06, 4:23

zhiguli wrote:do we have a native speaker here?
welcome to the site, akilbek, hope you'll stick around.

akilbek wrote:Wow! You're doing a great job! Thank you so much from all of us who love the Kazakh language.


and i second this. as i'll soon be pulling the plug on my own site your work is all the more important.


Thanks to both of you. And echo that question - akilbek, are you from KZ?

Perhaps you can give a definitive answer to the question of e = "e" vs e = "ye"... From what I can tell, e is "ye" if it's in a stressed syllable. (E.g., butterfly көбелек - no "ye" sound on the first e, but "ye" on the second e.)

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Re: Kazakh (Қазақ тілі)

Postby zhiguli » 2008-10-08, 4:29

hyc wrote:Pulling the plug on your web site? Why? Would it be worthwhile to make a copy of your stuff on my web site?


Just a lack of time and interest. And what time I do have left is time I'd rather spend on learning the material, than translating/regurgitating it for a (almost) nonexistent audience. And...I just don't like leaving things half-finished for too long.

I was working on some stuff for Kazakh, but then I realized that all the grammar tables one could ever need were already at the back of the Peace Corps manual, so it would be sort of reinventing the wheel. And then my hard drive crashed along with all the relevant files, which pretty much killed whatever enthusiasm was left. But if I ever do get around to finishing it I'll be happy to pass it on to you.

Have a nice trip, btw, жолдарың ашық болсын!

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Re: Kazakh (Қазақ тілі)

Postby hyc » 2008-10-13, 7:28

Рахмет! Yeah, a hard drive crash would pretty much kill my enthusiasm too...

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Re: Kazakh (Қазақ тілі)

Postby hyc » 2008-12-21, 7:35

Fyi I've completed all the text of the 1995 manual. I doubt I'll get to editing all the images back in. It's helped me get around Almaty for the past month; I'm flying back to Los Angeles in a few days. But I'll be returning to KZ in about 6-7 months... Жаңа жыл күтты болсын!

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Re: Kazakh (Қазақ тілі)

Postby księżycowy » 2010-01-17, 13:14

I know there hasn't been life at this post in quite a while, but I'm hoping someone will be able to answer a question. I've been studing Kazakh lately, and am wondering about the 'present tense' (at least that's what the book I'm using calls it, I'm using Kazakh Made Easy by Кубаева Ираида, among other grammar resources to supplement). Other resources have called in 'present progressive.' Anyway, on to my question.

I understand the basic concept:
verb stem + іп/ып/п + one of the following 'helping' verbs
(отыр/тұр/жатыр/жүр)
I also understand the meaning of the 'helping' verbs, but how do you select which 'helping' verb to go with which 'base' verb?

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Re:

Postby księżycowy » 2010-01-19, 20:34

zhiguli wrote:A few more words about a very important verb tense that was not covered in the lessons.

The present/future tense given is more like an aorist - it indicates action that is habitual or is planned for the near future.
барамын - I go (usually)/will go

To express the present continuous ("I am going") there's another construction.

There are four auxiliary verbs:

тұру to stand
отыру to sit
жатыру to lie
жүру to walk

These are the only ones that use a simple form in this tense. All other verbs use one of them as an auxiliary.

The main verb is the root with the added suffix -п/ып/іп:

мен сөйлеп тұрмын I am saying
сен жазып отырсың you are writing
etc

Exceptions: the verbs бару to go, келу to come, әкелу to bring, апару to take away

These use the form root+-е/а:

мен бар-а жатырмын
сен келе жатырсың
ол апара жатыр

The question is - which auxiliary to use? All have a slightly different nuance to them.

1) отыру indicates that the action is being done at this moment (sitting down):
Әділ кітап оқып отыр Ädil is reading a book
Кәрім шай ішіп отыр Kärim is drinking tea

2) жатыру gives a nuance of continuity and emphasizes the duration of an action:
Оля институтта оқып жатыр Olya studies (continues studying) at the institute
Мен келе жатырмын I continue to go

3) тұру has the nuance of repetitiveness, and indicates that the action is taking place at the moment (standing up):
Екі адам сөйлесіп тұр Two men are talking (standing up)
Ол маған қарап тұр He keeps looking at me (all this time)
Сен маған келіп тұр Keep coming to visit me (regularly)

4) жүру just like жатыр emphasises the continuity of an action or its being repeated:
Оля институтта оқып жүр Olya continues to study at the institute
Самат маған келіп жүр Samat comes to visit me (regularly)

http://www.geocities.com/bolatkhan/KazL ... index.html

"The most commonly used is жатыр. It's so common that there's even a proverb that goes
"Бұл қазақ не істесе де жатып істейді."
"This Kazakh, whatever he does, does it lying down."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kazakh_language

is a bit more precise:

Aspect in the Present Tense in Kazakh Kazakh aspect English translation
Жеймін non-progressive "I eat."
Жеп жатырмын progressive "I am eating."
Жеп отырмын progressive/durative "I am [sitting and] eating." / "I have been eating."
Жеп тұрмын progressive/punctual "I am eating [this very minute]."
Жеп жүрмін habitual/frequentative "I eat [lunch at noon every day]."

Evidentiality

Kazakh exhibits an evidentiality system which does not neatly align with morphological paradigms.

* тазалап тастапты - he cleaned it, and I saw the result
* тазалап тастапты (екен) - he cleaned it, and someone saw the results and told me
* тазалап тастаған - he cleaned it, I saw the result, and verified it with him
* тазалап тастаған екен - he cleaned it, and told me, but I probably didn't see the results
* тазалап тастады - he cleaned it, and I saw him clean it


The -ған/қан/ген/кен affix is that of another tense, the past perfect (the equivalent the mişli geçmiş zaman for you Turkish students) "He has gone" "you have eaten" etc.

Found my answer, thanks zhiguli! I suppose I should have read all the posts before asking the question. Nice lessons by the way.

I was thinking of posting some grammar notes here, but I think your lesson translations are why better then anything I would post. Though if I come across something else in my studies that wasn't posted I'll be sure to add it.

And out of curiosity I'll ask: Anyone learning Kazakh (or perhaps interested in learning it)? Or any native speakers?

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Re: Kazakh (Қазақ тілі)

Postby księżycowy » 2010-01-24, 19:43

I'll take that as a 'no, no-one's learning or interested in learning Kazakh.' That's a shame too. Was looking foreword to a 'study-buddy.' :( But I suppose I understand, this being a 'unique' ( :hmm: shall we say) language of Central Asia.

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Re: Kazakh (Қазақ тілі)

Postby hyc » 2010-01-25, 18:52

I haven't really practiced it since last year. Not much need or opportunity...

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Re: Kazakh (Қазақ тілі)

Postby księżycowy » 2010-01-25, 22:44

hyc wrote:I haven't really practiced it since last year. Not much need or opportunity...

I certainly understand that. Too bad more people weren't interested in Kazakh . . .

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Re: Kazakh (Қазақ тілі)

Postby Osprey » 2010-01-31, 17:56

I just began to study Kazakh. It seems to me, that it is easier language than Russian, at least to a person, who speaks Finnish. Please tell me where to find Kazakh fonts to my computer?
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Re: Kazakh (Қазақ тілі)

Postby księżycowy » 2010-01-31, 18:40

Osprey wrote:I just began to study Kazakh. It seems to me, that it is easier language than Russian, at least to a person, who speaks Finnish. Please tell me where to find Kazakh fonts to my computer?

Great to here you've started to learn Kazakh! It is a very different language then Russian (can't say if it's easier or not, I've always though that a matter of opinion).

As for fonts, if your using a newer system the fonts and keyboard layout should be already on the computer (like mine, which is (dare I say) windows vista). If they're not here are some links:
One
and
Two

Anyway, I'm sure we'll see each other around the forum. Later.

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Re: Kazakh (Қазақ тілі)

Postby Osprey » 2010-01-31, 20:41

księżycowy wrote:Great to here you've started to learn Kazakh! It is a very different language then Russian (can't say if it's easier or not, I've always though that a matter of opinion).

Kazakh is an agglutinative language as Finnish, so it seems somehow familiar to me... Of course it is not easy language... far from it, I believe, but very inspiring and interesting one.
księżycowy wrote:As for fonts, if your using a newer system the fonts and keyboard layout should be already on the computer (like mine, which is (dare I say) windows vista).

I found fonts and keyboard layout, thank you very much! Рахмет! Actually, I have Vista... and I don't like it at all.
księżycowy wrote:Anyway, I'm sure we'll see each other around the forum. Later.

I hope so! I'm afraid I'd stay here whining for help...
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Re: Kazakh (Қазақ тілі)

Postby księżycowy » 2010-01-31, 23:16

Osprey wrote:Kazakh is an agglutinative language as Finnish, so it seems somehow familiar to me... Of course it is not easy language... far from it, I believe, but very inspiring and interesting one. -

Indeed Kazakh is one of the many agglutinative languages. And I couldn't agree more with your last comment there!

I hope so! I'm afraid I'd stay here whining for help...

I'd be more then happy to offer any (though very limited at this point) help I can! And I'm sure if you can track down hyc or zhiguli they *may* be of assistance.

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Re: Kazakh (Қазақ тілі)

Postby hyc » 2010-02-01, 0:36

If you're looking for a Kazakh cursive font, I have one I edited here

http://highlandsun.com/hyc/Kazakh/

It was originally a Russian Cyrillic font, and I added the missing characters...

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Re: Kazakh (Қазақ тілі)

Postby Osprey » 2010-02-04, 21:05

hyc wrote:If you're looking for a Kazakh cursive font, I have one I edited here

http://highlandsun.com/hyc/Kazakh/

It was originally a Russian Cyrillic font, and I added the missing characters...


Thank you!

Kazakh really is a very cool language! Pronunciation, though, is somehow complicated… For example й - is it the same as Russian i kratkoje?
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Re: Kazakh (Қазақ тілі)

Postby księżycowy » 2010-02-05, 0:35

Osprey wrote:
hyc wrote:If you're looking for a Kazakh cursive font, I have one I edited here

http://highlandsun.com/hyc/Kazakh/

It was originally a Russian Cyrillic font, and I added the missing characters...


Thank you!

Kazakh really is a very cool language! Pronunciation, though, is somehow complicated… For example й - is it the same as Russian i kratkoje?

As best as I can tell, most Kazakh letters are similar to their Russian equivalents. The main differences are the 'extra' letters that are used to Kazakh. (That's not to say that Kazakh is pronounced as Russian, but the letters used to write both are for the most part pronounced the same)

Also, I'm curious, what are you using to learn Kazakh?


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