Tamil Study Group

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Re: Tamil Study Group

Postby dEhiN » 2018-07-16, 0:47

I'll write out the vowels using romanization to get you started. There are 5 monophthongs and 2 diphthongs. The diphthongs are considered long by default, and the monophthongs all have a long and short version. The 5 are a /a/, i /i/, e /e/, u /u/, o / o/. The 2 are ai /ai/ and au /au/. So, in total the vowels are:

a /a/
aa /aː/

i /i/
ii /iː/

e /e/
ee /eː/

u /u/
uu /uː/

ai /ai/

o /o/
oo /oː/

au /au/
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Re: Tamil Study Group

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-07-16, 2:02

dEhiN wrote:2-3 lateral approximants - alveolar, retroflex and either palatal (if you speak Sri Lankan Tamil) or a post-alveolar central approximant (if you speak Indian Tamil).

In Indian Tamil AFAIK, it's retroflex and not lateral except for speakers who have merged it with/into the retroflex lateral (which as I understand it is most of them).
I say 5 because there are 5, but some Tamilians consider there to be only 3 because they don't see the palatal and velar nasals as nasals, for some odd reason!

Actually, there are six because [m] is also a nasal. However, the dental, alveolar, palatal, and velar ones are all allophones of the same phoneme, so there are only three phonemic nasals (/m/, /n/, and /ɳ/). The dental one only appears morpheme-initially and before [d̪], the palatal one only ever appears before [d͡ʒ] IIRC, the velar one only appears before [g], and the alveolar one appears only in all other contexts. In Malayalam, by contrast, all six nasals are phonemic.
księżycowy wrote:Maybe I'll just learn it through context, like I did with Japanese.

I think that's roughly what I did, too (though probably over a much longer period of time than you may be hoping for :P).
dEhiN wrote:In romanized Tamil, th/dh refer to dental (unvoiced/voiced stop) while t/d refer to retroflex (unvoiced/voiced stop).

Except when they don't

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Re: Tamil Study Group

Postby dEhiN » 2018-07-16, 14:53

True, sometimes people write t/d for the dental stops.
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Re: Tamil Study Group

Postby księżycowy » 2018-07-16, 15:32

vijayjohn wrote:I think that's roughly what I did, too (though probably over a much longer period of time than you may be hoping for :P).

I'm going to take my time and enjoy the struggle. :lol:

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Re: Tamil Study Group

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-07-16, 15:53

So are you going through the course now, księżycowy? :P
dEhiN wrote:True, sometimes people write t/d for the dental stops.

More than sometimes. This is a South Asian language, after all! Romanization just isn't consistent.

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Re: Tamil Study Group

Postby dEhiN » 2018-07-16, 16:07

vijayjohn wrote:
dEhiN wrote:True, sometimes people write t/d for the dental stops.

More than sometimes. This is a South Asian language, after all! Romanization just isn't consistent.

அது சரியான உன்மை.
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Re: Tamil Study Group

Postby dEhiN » 2018-07-16, 16:20

I just read through the cultural notes part, and I found it quite helpful actually! I was always confused on why sometimes the stop consonants were doubled in written Tamil, and now I know why.

I do have two questions though. FIrstly, why is the 2nd singular polite / plural PNG suffix used not ஈர்கள்? For example, in 1b, shouldn't it be கொடு + ஈர்கள் = கொடுர்கள் or something like that. I assume that because all the examples (with verbs) are in the imperative mood and there's no tense suffix in between the verb roots and PNG suffixes, that in Tamil, the imperative mood is just verb root + PNG suffix?

Secondly, in point 3, they say that you double after the demonstrative adjectives, but not other adjectives. Yet, in example 3c, they write சின்னப் பையன்! Is சின்ன just an exception? If so, are there other exceptions? Is it just an oversight on their part to forget to mention that?
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Re: Tamil Study Group

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-07-16, 16:36

dEhiN wrote:I just read through the cultural notes part, and I found it quite helpful actually! I was always confused on why sometimes the stop consonants were doubled in written Tamil, and now I know why.

Nice! :D
I do have two questions though. FIrstly, why is the 2nd singular polite / plural PNG suffix used not ஈர்கள்?

Because -ஈர்கள் is just the suffix used for present progressive verbs ('you are ____ing'). The suffix for the imperative mood is -(உ)ங்கள் in Centhamil and -(உ)ங்க in Madurai dialect at least.
Secondly, in point 3, they say that you double after the demonstrative adjectives, but not other adjectives. Yet, in example 3c, they write சின்னப் பையன்! Is சின்ன just an exception? If so, are there other exceptions? Is it just an oversight on their part to forget to mention that?

Yeah, unfortunately, I'm not sure about this one. :? I saw it, too, and thought that maybe some adjectives do require doubling and others don't. Who knows! :P

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Re: Tamil Study Group

Postby dEhiN » 2018-07-16, 17:28

vijayjohn wrote:
dEhiN wrote:I do have two questions though. FIrstly, why is the 2nd singular polite / plural PNG suffix used not ஈர்கள்?

Because -ஈர்கள் is just the suffix used for present progressive verbs ('you are ____ing'). The suffix for the imperative mood is -(உ)ங்கள் in Centhamil and -(உ)ங்க in Madurai dialect at least.

Oh, so the PNG suffixes vary based upon the mood? Also, doesn't something like நான் பாண் சாப்பிடுகிறேன் mean more "I eat bread"? From what I understand, it could also imply the progressive "I'm eating bread", but I think the more common construction for progressive is to use verb root plus இரு: நான் பாண் சாப்பிடு இருக்கிறேன்.
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Re: Tamil Study Group

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-07-16, 17:44

dEhiN wrote:Oh, so the PNG suffixes vary based upon the mood?

I believe so, and in some moods, there are none, e.g. பார்க்கலாம் '[unspecified subject] shall see'.
Also, doesn't something like நான் பாண் சாப்பிடுகிறேன் mean more "I eat bread"? From what I understand, it could also imply the progressive "I'm eating bread", but I think the more common construction for progressive is to use verb root plus இரு: நான் பாண் சாப்பிடு இருக்கிறேன்.

Wouldn't it be past tense stem plus இரு, i.e. சாப்பிட்டு இருக்கிறேன்?

Yeah, I don't know whether this is a dialect difference or what it is, but I'm at least not aware yet of a case where a verb like சாப்பிடுகிறேன் could have a habitual meaning (e.g. 'I eat bread every day'), and my understanding is that you'd use the same form that's used for making definitive statements about the future like in Malayalam (i.e. 'I eat bread every day' and 'I will eat bread tomorrow' use the exact same verb form). Also, in Indian Tamil, apparently, 'bread' is உரொட்டி or ரொட்டி and is a loanword from Telugu (which surely got it from Hindi like Malayalam did), although this also says மண்டிகை means 'cake, bread', and பாண் apparently means either toddy or vocal music. :P

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Re: Tamil Study Group

Postby dEhiN » 2018-07-16, 17:51

Well, according to TamilDict.com, both பாண் and ரொட்டி mean bread.
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Re: Tamil Study Group

Postby księżycowy » 2018-07-16, 18:19

vijayjohn wrote:So are you going through the course now, księżycowy? :P

Not yet. I did the unthinkable and bought the book. I'm curious if there are any differences between the book and site (wouldn't think so, but you never know :P ).

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Re: Tamil Study Group

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-07-16, 18:30

dEhiN wrote:Well, according to TamilDict.com, both பாண் and ரொட்டி mean bread.

Maybe they're including SLT usage, too? *shrug*
księżycowy wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:So are you going through the course now, księżycowy? :P

Not yet. I did the unthinkable and bought the book. I'm curious if there are any differences between the book and site (wouldn't think so, but you never know :P ).

Apparently, there are. Someone once said the book looks more as if it was the author's thesis or something.

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Re: Tamil Study Group

Postby księżycowy » 2018-07-16, 18:31

Time shall tell, I suppose.

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Re: Tamil Study Group

Postby dEhiN » 2018-07-29, 22:33

Ok, so I read through (well, more listened to and somewhat followed along) Reading 1. I also finished all the grammar stuff from Dialogue 4. I guess we could do Exercises 3 & 4 for this week?
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Re: Tamil Study Group

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-07-29, 22:40

Sure! Exercises 3 and 4 are now due next Saturday, on August 4. :)

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Re: Tamil Study Group

Postby dEhiN » 2018-07-29, 22:55

மிக்க நன்றி என்டே நல்லா தம்பி.
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Re: Tamil Study Group

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-08-01, 0:36

dEhiN wrote:மிக்க நன்றி என்டே நல்லா தம்பி.

Or என் நல்ல தம்பி using the pronominal form they've taught us so far in this course. :P

Np :)

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Re: Tamil Study Group

Postby dEhiN » 2018-08-03, 16:32

vijayjohn wrote:
dEhiN wrote:மிக்க நன்றி என்டே நல்லா தம்பி.

Or என் நல்ல தம்பி using the pronominal form they've taught us so far in this course. :P

Np :)

I forgot that நல்ல is that adjective and நல்லா is the adverb. For me, என் is கொடுந்தமிழ் in India, while எண்டே is கொடுந்தமிழ் in Sri Lanka. (Also, it should be spelled with முண்டு சுழி ண், not ரெண்டு சுழி ன் as I did above.)
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Re: Tamil Study Group

Postby dEhiN » 2018-08-03, 18:10

Here are the answers for Exercise 3:

பல் - பல்லா
பால் - பாலா

கல் - கல்லா
கால் - காலா

கண் - கண்ணா
தம்பி - தம்பியா

தங்கை - தங்கையா
அம்மா - அம்மாவா

அப்பா - அப்பாவா
அண்ணன் - அண்ணனா

அவர் - அவரா
பழம் - பழமா

One thing that confused me is there is a button for ன which would indicate it's needed for one of the answers. However, it's not; there's no word where you need to double ன். Also, I'm not sure if அண்ணன் is more commonly used in Spoken Indian Tamil, but in Spoken Sri Lankan Tamil, it's quite common to hear அண்ணா instead (though I have heard அண்ணன் as well).
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