Tamil Study Group

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Re: Tamil Study Group

Postby dEhiN » 2018-11-19, 16:17

vijayjohn wrote:I think that would be வாழ்த்துக்கு, and பேசுது in செந்தமிழ் would be பேசுகிறது

But why would you use the present tense? I figured the future tense would be used, since it's a general (or even permanent) thing: this word means that in Tamil. I was confused at first by your addition of the dative, but I think I understand it. I wasn't sure how to word that sentence because, in English, வாழ்த்து would be the subject and so dictate how the verb is conjugated. But I don't know if in Tamil, the same thing could happen.
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Re: Tamil Study Group

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-11-19, 18:32

Wait, actually, it should probably be:

தமிழில் "wish"உக்கு வாழ்த்து பேசுகிறது

I.e. 'in Tamil, one says வாழ்த்து for "wish"' or maybe 'வாழ்த்து is said for "wish" in Tamil'.

Meaning is அர்த்தம், which is from Sanskrit. In Malayalam, this is supposed to be pronounced [ərt̪ˈt̪ʰəm] (as reflected in the spelling അർത്ഥം), but it seems likely to me that a lot of people pronounce it the same way as Tamils do.

I've found in Malayalam that there isn't always as much of a clear-cut distinction between present progressive ("present tense") and present habitual ("future tense") as I'd expect, so this could be something like that.

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Re: Tamil Study Group

Postby dEhiN » 2018-11-19, 22:54

vijayjohn wrote:Wait, actually, it should probably be:

தமிழில் "wish"உக்கு வாழ்த்து பேசுகிறது

I.e. 'in Tamil, one says வாழ்த்து for "wish"' or maybe 'வாழ்த்து is said for "wish" in Tamil'.

Meaning is அர்த்தம், which is from Sanskrit. In Malayalam, this is supposed to be pronounced [ərt̪ˈt̪ʰəm] (as reflected in the spelling അർത്ഥം), but it seems likely to me that a lot of people pronounce it the same way as Tamils do.

I've found in Malayalam that there isn't always as much of a clear-cut distinction between present progressive ("present tense") and present habitual ("future tense") as I'd expect, so this could be something like that.

Oh yeah, I forgot the word அர்த்தம்! I don't know if your phrase makes sense though because the PNG suffix for the verb is the 3rd inanimate singular and it's the present active, meaning you're effectively saying "in Tamil, வாழ்த்து says for 'wish'". If you want to say "வாழ்த்து is said for 'wish' in Tamil", then you need to use the present passive, which I know is done differently.
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Re: Tamil Study Group

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-11-19, 23:04

Except that unless Tamil grammar is even more different from Malayalam grammar than I thought, the passive is too rarely used to be applicable in such a casual context, and people would be more likely to just use a sentence with an unspecified subject.

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Re: Tamil Study Group

Postby dEhiN » 2018-11-26, 21:27

So, have you finished Lesson 9? If so, shall we do Lesson 10 for this week?
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Re: Tamil Study Group

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-11-26, 21:54

dEhiN wrote:So, have you finished Lesson 9?

ஆம் :)
If so, shall we do Lesson 10 for this week?

ஆம், நான் கால அட்டவணையை மாற்றிவிட்டேன்.

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Re: Tamil Study Group

Postby dEhiN » 2018-11-26, 22:05

I just realized that I did lesson 10 last week, so this week I'll actually be doing lesson 9!
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Re: Tamil Study Group

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-11-26, 22:14

Lol okay, you do lesson 9 while I do lesson 10! :P

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Re: Tamil Study Group

Postby dEhiN » 2018-11-27, 17:12

vijayjohn wrote:Lol okay, you do lesson 9 while I do lesson 10! :P

ஆம் தம்பி.
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Re: Tamil Study Group

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-12-03, 0:07

அண்ணா, நீங்கள் பாடத்தைப் படித்துவிட்டீர்களா?

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Re: Tamil Study Group

Postby dEhiN » 2018-12-03, 21:58

vijayjohn wrote:அண்ணா, நீங்கள் பாடத்தைப் படித்துவிட்டீர்களா?

ஆம் தம்பி.

Why did you use the same structure here as மாற்றிவிட்டது? Couldn't you just use the simple past of படி?
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Re: Tamil Study Group

Postby dEhiN » 2018-12-03, 22:40

அப்ப, நாங்கள் பாட பதினொன்றை* இந்த கிழமை படிக்கிறோமா?

*பாடத்தை பதினொன்று?
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Re: Tamil Study Group

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-12-03, 23:04

dEhiN wrote:Why did you use the same structure here as மாற்றிவிட்டது? Couldn't you just use the simple past of படி?

Sure, but படித்துவிட்டீர்களா IIUC conveys something slightly different: 'Did you finish reading...?'

படித்துவிட்டீர்களா literally means 'did you read and let go'. விடு means 'release, let go'.

This is a short movie clip in Malayalam with lots of English, not in Tamil, although it's set in a tourist resort called Kodaikanal, which is in Tamil Nadu (though close to the border with Kerala). :P The woman in this clip says விடு since we have this word in Malayalam, too:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_1KKXofSSU
At 0:27: [jɛnˈde kəˈjiːn̪n̪ɯ ʋiˈɖɯ]...[jɛnˈde kəˈjiːn̪n̪ɯ ʋiˈɖaːnaː pəˈrəɲəd̪ɯ]! 'Let go of my hand...I said let go of my hand!'.
dEhiN wrote:அப்ப, நாங்கள் பாட பதினொன்றை* இந்த கிழமை படிக்கிறோமா?

*பாடத்தை பதினொன்று?

பாடம் பதினொன்று. ஆம், பாடம் பதினொன்று படிப்போம். நான் கால அட்டவணையை மாற்றிவிட்டேன்.

It's நாம், not நாங்கள், because you're talking about both you and me (i.e. you're including the person you're talking to), so you need the inclusive pronoun. I'm not sure whether அப்ப works in this context; I'd say அப்படி என்றால் based on what your uncle (right?) said earlier. :P I'd also say அடுத்த கிழமை படிப்போமா? since we haven't started doing it yet; I'm not sure whether இந்த or அடுத்த is correct in this context.

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Re: Tamil Study Group

Postby dEhiN » 2018-12-04, 18:11

vijayjohn wrote:
dEhiN wrote:Why did you use the same structure here as மாற்றிவிட்டது? Couldn't you just use the simple past of படி?

Sure, but படித்துவிட்டீர்களா IIUC conveys something slightly different: 'Did you finish reading...?'

படித்துவிட்டீர்களா literally means 'did you read and let go'. விடு means 'release, let go'.

So that's why you add the present participle of the second verb as a prefix?

At 0:27: [jɛnˈde kəˈjiːn̪n̪ɯ ʋiˈɖɯ]...[jɛnˈde kəˈjiːn̪n̪ɯ ʋiˈɖaːnaː pəˈrəɲəd̪ɯ]! 'Let go of my hand...I said let go of my hand!'.

Interestingly enough, what you hear or wrote as schwa I heard more as [ɛ].

dEhiN wrote:அப்ப, நாங்கள் பாட பதினொன்றை* இந்த கிழமை படிக்கிறோமா?

*பாடத்தை பதினொன்று?

பாடம் பதினொன்று.

Why don't we use the accusative suffix here?

It's நாம், not நாங்கள், because you're talking about both you and me (i.e. you're including the person you're talking to), so you need the inclusive pronoun. I'm not sure whether அப்ப works in this context; I'd say அப்படி என்றால் based on what your uncle (right?) said earlier. :P I'd also say அடுத்த கிழமை படிப்போமா? since we haven't started doing it yet; I'm not sure whether இந்த or அடுத்த is correct in this context.

Thanks for the corrections. I totally forgot about the inclusive/exclusive pronoun aspect for 1st person plural. And I also forgot about அப்படி என்றால் as the conjunctive 'so/then'. I used இந்த because I was writing the post within the same week as the goal. At first I wrote அடுத்த but then changed it. That's also why I used the present tense suffix. I was trying to say "then, are we studying lesson 11 for this week".
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Re: Tamil Study Group

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-12-05, 1:14

dEhiN wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:
dEhiN wrote:Why did you use the same structure here as மாற்றிவிட்டது? Couldn't you just use the simple past of படி?

Sure, but படித்துவிட்டீர்களா IIUC conveys something slightly different: 'Did you finish reading...?'

படித்துவிட்டீர்களா literally means 'did you read and let go'. விடு means 'release, let go'.

So that's why you add the present participle of the second verb as a prefix?

I don't understand what you mean (what present participle and what prefix? படித்துவிட்டீர்களா contains neither of those).
At 0:27: [jɛnˈde kəˈjiːn̪n̪ɯ ʋiˈɖɯ]...[jɛnˈde kəˈjiːn̪n̪ɯ ʋiˈɖaːnaː pəˈrəɲəd̪ɯ]! 'Let go of my hand...I said let go of my hand!'.

Interestingly enough, what you hear or wrote as schwa I heard more as [ɛ].

Which schwa in which word?
dEhiN wrote:அப்ப, நாங்கள் பாட பதினொன்றை* இந்த கிழமை படிக்கிறோமா?

*பாடத்தை பதினொன்று?

பாடம் பதினொன்று.

Why don't we use the accusative suffix here?

As far as I understand, because it's a set expression (I think you could only say பாடத்தை பதினொன்று if those two words weren't part of the same noun phrase, but in the sense 'lesson 11', of course they're part of the same phrase), and you can't add case suffixes to numerals.

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Re: Tamil Study Group

Postby dEhiN » 2018-12-05, 18:37

vijayjohn wrote:I don't understand what you mean (what present participle and what prefix? படித்துவிட்டீர்களா contains neither of those).

Well, the way I analyzed படித்துவிட்டீர்களா is:
படித்துவிட்டீர்களா < படித்து + விட்டீர்களா < படி + த்து + விடு + ட்ட + ஈர்கள் + ஆ
= verb root "study" + present participle suffix + verb root "release, let go" + past tense suffix + 2nd polite singular PNG suffix + interrogative suffix

So, I saw படி as the second verb made into a present participle and then affixed as a prefix to the main verb விடு. But it seems like my analysis is wrong?

vijayjohn wrote:
At 0:27: [jɛnˈde kəˈjiːn̪n̪ɯ ʋiˈɖɯ]...[jɛnˈde kəˈjiːn̪n̪ɯ ʋiˈɖaːnaː pəˈrəɲəd̪ɯ]! 'Let go of my hand...I said let go of my hand!'.

Interestingly enough, what you hear or wrote as schwa I heard more as [ɛ].

Which schwa in which word?

Right, I should've been more specific. I heard [kəˈjiːn̪n̪ɯ] more as [kɛˈjiːn̪n̪ɯ] both times and even [pəˈrəɲəd̪ɯ] sounded a little bit more like [pɛˈrəɲəd̪ɯ].

vijayjohn wrote:As far as I understand, because it's a set expression (I think you could only say பாடத்தை பதினொன்று if those two words weren't part of the same noun phrase, but in the sense 'lesson 11', of course they're part of the same phrase), and you can't add case suffixes to numerals.

I realized it was a set expression, which was why I wasn't sure where to put the accusative suffix. So, I guess for set expressions that end in a numeral, case suffixes aren't attached? What about sentences where the set expression (or noun phrase) isn't in the accusative case? For example, say the sentence, "What were your answers for lesson 11?" Based on what you wrote, I would say something like உங்கது வினாகளை பாடம் பதினொன்று என்ன? But otherwise, I would think to add the dative suffix to பாடம் பதினொன்று.
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Re: Tamil Study Group

Postby rmanoj » 2018-12-05, 19:46

விடு I would say is an auxiliary there, while படி is the main verb. Of course, the former is also used as a main verb, as in that Malayalam example.

Inanimate nouns don't take the accusative much of the time (differential object marking). So பாடம் படித்தேன், not பாடத்தை படித்தேன். So the question of having the numeral agree doesn't really arise. Even when there is some non-nominative case marking, only the final element takes it―think of it as behaving like a compound. So in the genitive, பாடம் பதினொன்றின், not பாடத்தின் பதினென்று or பாடத்தின் பதினொன்றின்.

In Malayalam, the short 'a' is sometimes a schwa and sometimes a more open vowel ([ä]?). It can also be [ɛ] (or [e]?) in some people's pronunciation, but I don't think that would ever occur in the words quoted—and they certainly don't sound like that to me in the video.

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Re: Tamil Study Group

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-12-06, 1:09

dEhiN wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:I don't understand what you mean (what present participle and what prefix? படித்துவிட்டீர்களா contains neither of those).

Well, the way I analyzed படித்துவிட்டீர்களா is:
படித்துவிட்டீர்களா < படித்து + விட்டீர்களா < படி + த்து + விடு + ட்ட + ஈர்கள் + ஆ
= verb root "study" + present participle suffix + verb root "release, let go" + past tense suffix + 2nd polite singular PNG suffix + interrogative suffix

So, I saw படி as the second verb made into a present participle and then affixed as a prefix to the main verb விடு. But it seems like my analysis is wrong?

No, படி is the main verb, and த்து is the past participle. விடு, as rmanoj says, is the auxiliary/helping verb/whatever you want to call it.
For example, say the sentence, "What were your answers for lesson 11?" Based on what you wrote, I would say something like உங்கது வினாகளை பாடம் பதினொன்று என்ன?

:shock: If you wrote this, I'd have no idea what it meant. :lol: I've never seen உங்கது except from you, actually. :hmm: I have no idea what வினாகள் is...is that really how y'all say 'answers'?

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Re: Tamil Study Group

Postby dEhiN » 2018-12-11, 22:02

vijayjohn wrote::shock: If you wrote this, I'd have no idea what it meant. :lol: I've never seen உங்கது except from you, actually. :hmm: I have no idea what வினாகள் is...is that really how y'all say 'answers'?

Yeah, maybe உங்கது isn't an actual word. I just assumed it was because of உனது and எனது. And yeah, விளா is the word I know for 'answer'; what do you use?

Also, can we skip this week? I didn't get a chance to do much last week except for Tamil, so I would like to catch up with French, Spanish and Old English this week.
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Re: Tamil Study Group

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-12-12, 1:14

dEhiN wrote:Yeah, maybe உங்கது isn't an actual word. I just assumed it was because of உனது and எனது.

Yeah, I've never seen any of those except from you. Maybe they're Sri Lankan Tamil?
And yeah, விளா is the word I know for 'answer'; what do you use?

In Malayalam, we say [uˈt̪əɾəm], which seems to be a Sanskrit loanword.
Also, can we skip this week? I didn't get a chance to do much last week except for Tamil, so I would like to catch up with French, Spanish and Old English this week.

Sure! :) I have to catch up with Old English, too. :P


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