Tamil Study Group

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Re: Tamil Study Group

Postby rmanoj » 2018-11-06, 21:45

dEhiN wrote:
rmanoj wrote:Yes, we use green chillis as well. With a double l.

Actually, both work, and the double l form is an alternative to the single l form.

I know, I was playing the curmudgeon for humorous effect.
Last edited by rmanoj on 2018-11-07, 6:29, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Tamil Study Group

Postby dEhiN » 2018-11-06, 21:57

rmanoj wrote:
dEhiN wrote:
rmanoj wrote:Yes, we use green chillis as well. With a double l.

Actually, both work, and the double l form is an alternative to the single l form.

I know, I was playing the curmudgeon for humourous effect.

Oh sorry, reading intent on here is hard for me especially when I don't really know the person. :D
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Re: Tamil Study Group

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-11-07, 1:54

Huh, I thought <chillies> was a specifically Indian spelling or something...well, I guess it can be used in Britain, too, and probably in other British Commonwealth countries. I remember when I was growing up, I first saw "curmudgeon" being used in an Indian English comic strip (of all the places to learn that word), and when I asked my Amma what that means, she translated it into Malayalam as ഒരു വഴക്കാളി.

Anyway, I completely forgot to update the assignment in the first post until now! :o I hope it looks okay, but let me know if there are any problems with it!

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Re: Tamil Study Group

Postby dEhiN » 2018-11-07, 3:53

vijayjohn wrote:Huh, I thought <chillies> was a specifically Indian spelling or something...well, I guess it can be used in Britain, too, and probably in other British Commonwealth countries. I remember when I was growing up, I first saw "curmudgeon" being used in an Indian English comic strip (of all the places to learn that word), and when I asked my Amma what that means, she translated it into Malayalam as ഒരു വഴക്കാളി.

Google Translate renders that as oru vaḻakkāḷi and translates it as "a quarrel". Is that what it means? I didn't know oru was used in Malayalam as well! And is the first <l> supposed to be similar to Tamil ழ் with the second one similar to ள்?

vijayjohn wrote:Anyway, I completely forgot to update the assignment in the first post until now! :o I hope it looks okay, but let me know if there are any problems with it!

No worries, it looks good. I read through Lesson 7. I would like to go back over it and copy out some of the words into my notebook, although to be honest, none of them were new. I had already learned all those words, but it was good to see it written out as rules with examples. Except, I wish they had given examples for the two ways to make lists.

I also find that with all this Tamil studying, I am slowly getting used to the Tamil way of forming sentences (which I have mentioned before), and also my reading comprehension is slowly increasing. I was thinking to start saying out loud any and all sentence examples I come across (in this or any other resource) as a way to practice my speaking/listening.
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Re: Tamil Study Group

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-11-07, 4:10

dEhiN wrote:Google Translate renders that as oru vaḻakkāḷi and translates it as "a quarrel". Is that what it means?

No, [ʋəˈɻəkɯ] means 'quarrel' or just generally making trouble. A [ʋəɻəˈkaːɭi] is the person who makes the [ʋəˈɻəkɯ]! For me, a naughty kid pretty much immediately comes to mind (but it can be more than just that, i.e. the meaning is broader than that).
I didn't know oru was used in Malayalam as well!

Indeed it is!
And is the first <l> supposed to be similar to Tamil ழ் with the second one similar to ள்?

Yep!
I also find that with all this Tamil studying, I am slowly getting used to the Tamil way of forming sentences (which I have mentioned before)

I'm forgetting. What do you mean by the Tamil way of forming sentences?

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Re: Tamil Study Group

Postby rmanoj » 2018-11-07, 6:58

வழக்காளி apparently exists in Tamil. This is what the Tamil Lexicon has to say:

1) வழக்காளி (p. 3541) vaḻakkāḷi வழக்காளி vaḻakkāḷi, n. < id. + ஆளி1. 1. Plaintiff; வழக்குத்தொடுத்தவன். (யாழ். அக.) 2. Disputant, wrangler; வாதாடுவோன். 3. One who is well informed in laws and customs; வழக்கவிவகாரங்க ளறிந்தவன். Loc.

In Malayalam I suppose we have a slightly different take on it!

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Re: Tamil Study Group

Postby dEhiN » 2018-11-07, 14:56

vijayjohn wrote:I'm forgetting. What do you mean by the Tamil way of forming sentences?

Well, I was already used to verb-final sentences, but the word order of the rest of the sentence is different than in English because Tamil is left-branching. The first several times I encountered slightly longer sentences (than a basic one like "she eats"), I couldn't understand any of it even if I knew all the words. Now, I am sometimes able to get the gist of what's being said.
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Re: Tamil Study Group

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-11-08, 5:27

rmanoj wrote:In Malayalam I suppose we have a slightly different take on it!

We love pejorating Tamil words: வழக்காளி, வளம், பண்டாரம், தந்தை, பண்ணு... :twisted: :P

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Re: Tamil Study Group

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-11-11, 7:30

Anyway, I read lesson 7, and dEhiN, since you've read it by now, too, what should we do for next week? Lesson 8?

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Re: Tamil Study Group

Postby dEhiN » 2018-11-11, 18:53

Sure, that works for me. Also, I asked my uncle about 3 of the Tamil sentences you've written, and here are his replies.

The first one:
► Show Spoiler

The second one:
► Show Spoiler

The third one:
► Show Spoiler


Some notes: I put all of his replies in red; he had only written the corrections for the first sentence in red. He didn't share what கால or அட்டவணையை mean. He also didn't correct வரே, which you wrote as "up to" to வரை. If you want, I can ask him about that. But overall, it looks like your Tamil is quite good!
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Re: Tamil Study Group

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-11-11, 19:22

Oh wow, thanks for sharing all of that here! :D (And of course for the compliment haha). Shouldn't it be படிப்போம், though, not படிபபோம்?

கால is the form of காலம் used in compound nouns, and அட்டவணையை is the accusative case form of அட்டவணை, which apparently means something like 'list'. காலம் is a loanword from Sanskrit meaning 'time' (we have this in Malayalam, too). So கால அட்டவணை as I understand that literally means 'list of times'.

கால அட்டவணையை மாற்றிவிட்டேன். அடுத்த கிழமை பாடம் எட்டு படிப்போம். :)

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Re: Tamil Study Group

Postby dEhiN » 2018-11-12, 20:51

vijayjohn wrote:Oh wow, thanks for sharing all of that here! :D (And of course for the compliment haha).

You're welcome!

Shouldn't it be படிப்போம், though, not படிபபோம்?

Yes, it should be படிப்போம். That was a typo.

கால is the form of காலம் used in compound nouns, and அட்டவணையை is the accusative case form of அட்டவணை, which apparently means something like 'list'. காலம் is a loanword from Sanskrit meaning 'time' (we have this in Malayalam, too). So கால அட்டவணை as I understand that literally means 'list of times'.

மிக்க நன்றி.

கால அட்டவணையை மாற்றிவிட்டேன். அடுத்த கிழமை பாடம் எட்டு படிப்போம். :)

நல்லது.
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Re: Tamil Study Group

Postby dEhiN » 2018-11-13, 19:47

I was reviewing the notes from the lessons we've studied, and I was curious about something. So, in my experience from going to various தமிழ் கடைகள், if you want to ask if they have something, you usually say "X இருக்கதா?". You also could say "X இருக்கிறதா?"; at least I have said that and been understood. But the most common one is the first phrase.

I always thought இருக்கதா was just a spoken variant of இருக்கிறதா, and the question was still in the present tense, as it would be in English. But the examples in the lessons give the pattern of verb root + க்க + PNG suffix for the 3rd inanimate pronoun for strong verbs, meaning that இருக்கதா should be the future tense since இரு is a strong verb? So, is that what's really happening here? Just as how தமிழில் (in Tamil), you use the future tense for general statements: எனக்கு தெரியும் (I understand), எனக்கு நாய்கள் பிடிக்கும் (I like dogs), etc.; is the future tense being used to ask if ஒரு கடை பணியாளர் (a store clerk) has something?

PS. I'm not sure if my use of தமிழில் works in this case. I was trying to throw in any Tamil I could. The same goes for ஒரு கடை பணியாளர் - I don't know if பணியாளர் is the correct word for worker.
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Re: Tamil Study Group

Postby rmanoj » 2018-11-13, 20:12

I believe standard Indian Tamil usage in such situations would be இருக்கா (from literary இருக்குமா). இருக்கதா may be a survival of certain old future-tense forms in -க்கு that existed as an alternative to -ப்ப. So இருக்குவது, இருக்குவேன் etc. These are also found in poetic Malayalam. The future tense is used like that because it used to be just the 'non-past'; the modern present tense is a later innovation.

தமிழில் is perfectly fine. I don't know about பணியாளர்.

Edit: Or it could just be a spoken variant of இருக்கிறதா as you initially thought. Occam's razor and all that. How the future tense is formed has no bearing on how the present may or may not be shortened―check your logic. :)

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Re: Tamil Study Group

Postby dEhiN » 2018-11-13, 21:11

rmanoj wrote:I believe standard Indian Tamil usage in such situations would be இருக்கா (from literary இருக்குமா). இருக்கதா may be a survival of certain old future-tense forms in -க்கு that existed as an alternative to -ப்ப. So இருக்குவது, இருக்குவேன் etc. These are also found in poetic Malayalam. The future tense is used like that because it used to be just the 'non-past'; the modern present tense is a later innovation.

I didn't realise that Old Tamil just had past and non-past. I believe Hittite has the same, if I'm not mistaken. I believe I have heard இருக்கா used before, but because Toronto (and Canada in general) generally has more Sri Lankan Tamils, I hear இருக்கதா more commonly. I used to think that இருக்கா was just even more of a shortening of இருக்கிறதா!

rmanoj wrote:தமிழில் is perfectly fine.

நன்றி.

rmanoj wrote:I don't know about பணியாளர்.

Yeah, I'm not sure either. I tried looking it up, but found conflicting results. I figured a compound noun of some sort with வேலை would work, but I couldn't figure out the ending to use.

rmanjo wrote:Edit: Or it could just be a spoken variant of இருக்கிறதா as you initially thought. Occam's razor and all that. How the future tense is formed has no bearing on how the present may or may not be shortened―check your logic. :)

Damn Occam's razor! :P :D
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Re: Tamil Study Group

Postby rmanoj » 2018-11-13, 21:48

Going by Malayalam, I would expect கடைக்காரர் for 'shopkeeper'. That certainly brings up plenty of search results. If by 'store clerk' you specifically mean a junior employee, then I'm not sure.

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Re: Tamil Study Group

Postby dEhiN » 2018-11-14, 0:15

rmanoj wrote:Going by Malayalam, I would expect கடைக்காரர் for 'shopkeeper'. That certainly brings up plenty of search results. If by 'store clerk' you specifically mean a junior employee, then I'm not sure.

No, I meant just someone who works at the store. I suppose that's most likely a junior employee.
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Re: Tamil Study Group

Postby rmanoj » 2018-11-15, 7:49

In Chennai today for a job interview. Let's see if I can at least buy some cigarettes in Tamil.

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Re: Tamil Study Group

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-11-15, 18:52

Good luck!!

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Re: Tamil Study Group

Postby dEhiN » 2018-11-15, 22:48

rmanoj wrote:In Chennai today for a job interview. Let's see if I can at least buy some cigarettes in Tamil.

(எனக்கு) cigarettes கொடுங்களா?
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