Tamil Study Group

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Re: Tamil Study Group

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-10-31, 5:00

dEhiN wrote:
vijayjohn wrote::lol: And there are two scribble speaks in this thread, too! :silly:

Speaking of two, when are you going to teach me Malayalam? We could do both at the same time!

Whenever you like. You didn't express any particular interest in doing that until just now. :P

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Re: Tamil Study Group

Postby dEhiN » 2018-10-31, 5:06

அது உண்மை. (I don't remember if this works in Tamil or not; I feel like I used it as a response once before and you said it doesn't sound right.)
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Re: Tamil Study Group

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-10-31, 5:19

Actually, you said அது சரியான உன்மை. That's what I said didn't sound right. :P

I think அது உண்மை works.

I was just thinking that if you wanted to learn Malayalam, maybe the script would be hard, but then I thought a bit more and realized it probably isn't that hard if you can see some of the comparisons with Tamil and especially with Grantha script (which is not quite the same thing as Grantha letters, although that's where the Grantha letters come from! Then I started worrying a bit about whether Grantha script would make much sense to you :silly:).

Of course, it gets more complicated once we get into how consonant clusters are represented in Malayalam, because there are the ones that get stacked vertically, the ones that get stacked horizontally (EDIT: did I mention that there's one that's stacked in the opposite direction from the others?), the one(s?) that can get stacked either way except that one way is new script and the other is old script, and the ones that are sort of random, but at least all the rest are handled pretty much the same way as in Tamil script! Heheh! Ehheheheh!! Yeah.

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Re: Tamil Study Group

Postby rmanoj » 2018-11-04, 12:11

Hi guys. How's it going? I couldn't get started on this because I was too busy then, but now I have more time—but I've taken up Sanskrit instead. Ploughing through the rather problematic Teach Yourself Sanskrit right now. I'm not planning to do anything actively with Tamil for the time being, although that may change if I get the job in TN that I'm angling for. Nevertheless, I'm here if you find yourselves in need of the occasional monologue on adverbial participles and such. :)

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Re: Tamil Study Group

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-11-04, 17:13

I'm fine, how are you? I'm glad you posted here especially since I was wondering, and wanted to ask, whether dEhiN managed to read the first six lessons of தமிழ் பாடநூல் this week. (I could try writing in Tamil, but I'm worried that my knowledge of it is so poor that it would be more likely to just confuse everyone. :P I'd be fine with only confusing dEhiN :twisted: but I'm not so sure about potentially confusing you and him :lol:).

Nice to see you again, and thanks for offering to help! :)

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Re: Tamil Study Group

Postby dEhiN » 2018-11-04, 21:18

rmanoj wrote:Hi guys. How's it going? I couldn't get started on this because I was too busy then, but now I have more time—but I've taken up Sanskrit instead. Ploughing through the rather problematic Teach Yourself Sanskrit right now. I'm not planning to do anything actively with Tamil for the time being, although that may change if I get the job in TN that I'm angling for. Nevertheless, I'm here if you find yourselves in need of the occasional monologue on adverbial participles and such. :)

Hey, it's been a while! What version of TY Sanskrit do you have? I have the 1992 edition, which I've started twice and stopped after the preface/introduction section.

I'm tempted to start a study group with you right now! :twisted:

vijayjohn wrote:I''m glad you posted here especially since I was wondering, and wanted to ask, whether dEhiN managed to read the first six lessons of தமிழ் பாடநூல் this week. (I could try writing in Tamil, but I'm worried that my knowledge of it is so poor that it would be more likely to just confuse everyone. :P I'd be fine with only confusing dEhiN :twisted: but I'm not so sure about potentially confusing you and him :lol:).

Thanks so much for being ok with confusing me, but not wanting to confuse rmanoj! :evil: :D I did finish the first six lessons of தமிழ் பாடநூல். Could we just do lesson 7 for this week? I know it's not much, but I wanted to go back through the Tamil vocab you used in your prior posts, and look them up and write them out.

Also, for lesson 6, they write that the future tense suffixes for weak and strong verbs don't apply to the pronouns அது/அவை, but then they give an example in the examples for each. In the weak verbs examples, they write நாய் நாளைக்கு உட்காரும், and for the strong verbs examples, they have அவை குடிக்கும். From these two, can we deduce that for the pronouns அது/அவை, with weak verbs, for the future tense you just write verb root + PNG suffix, and for the strong verbs you write verb root + க்க் + PNG suffix?
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Re: Tamil Study Group

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-11-04, 21:45

dEhiN wrote:
rmanoj wrote:Hi guys. How's it going? I couldn't get started on this because I was too busy then, but now I have more time—but I've taken up Sanskrit instead. Ploughing through the rather problematic Teach Yourself Sanskrit right now. I'm not planning to do anything actively with Tamil for the time being, although that may change if I get the job in TN that I'm angling for. Nevertheless, I'm here if you find yourselves in need of the occasional monologue on adverbial participles and such. :)

Hey, it's been a while! What version of TY Sanskrit do you have? I have the 1992 edition, which I've started twice and stopped after the preface/introduction section.

I have the 2003(?) edition and can share it.
I'm tempted to start a study group with you right now! :twisted:

I'd be fine with joining that group, of course. :P
Thanks so much for being ok with confusing me, but not wanting to confuse rmanoj! :evil: :D

That's because he knows both Tamil and Malayalam better than me, and I'm worried that he may not even know how to really react when he sees Tamil written under the influence of some American guy's Malayalam. :lol:
I did finish the first six lessons of தமிழ் பாடநூல்.

Yay!
Could we just do lesson 7 for this week?

Yep!
I know it's not much, but I wanted to go back through the Tamil vocab you used in your prior posts, and look them up and write them out.

And this right here is why I decided to write this entire post in English because otherwise, you'd probably find even more vocab!

Please take that vocab with a grain of salt, though. Remember, I'm not Tamil, and I'm not a native speaker. EDIT: Honestly, I probably just pulled some of those words out of my ass.
Also, for lesson 6, they write that the future tense suffixes for weak and strong verbs don't apply to the pronouns அது/அவை, but then they give an example in the examples for each. In the weak verbs examples, they write நாய் நாளைக்கு உட்காரும், and for the strong verbs examples, they have அவை குடிக்கும். From these two, can we deduce that for the pronouns அது/அவை, with weak verbs, for the future tense you just write verb root + PNG suffix, and for the strong verbs you write verb root + க்க் + PNG suffix?

Yeah, I think so. I think their point was just that there's no வ் or ப்ப் in the அது/அவை forms (i.e. when the subject is inanimate).

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Re: Tamil Study Group

Postby dEhiN » 2018-11-04, 22:16

vijayjohn wrote:I have the 2003(?) edition and can share it.

It looks like it's the 2006 version.

vijayjohn wrote:I'd be fine with joining that group, of course. :P

Let's just stop beating around the bush Vijay, and start study groups for every single language out there, even if it's just you and me in the group.

vijayjohn wrote:That's because he knows both Tamil and Malayalam better than me, and I'm worried that he may not even know how to really react when he sees Tamil written under the influence of some American guy's Malayalam. :lol:

Makes sense!

vijayjohn wrote:Yep!

Yay! நன்றி.

vijayjohn wrote:And this right here is why I decided to write this entire post in English because otherwise, you'd probably find even more vocab!

எனக்கு அது தெரியும்.

vijayjohn wrote:Please take that vocab with a grain of salt, though. Remember, I'm not Tamil, and I'm not a native speaker.

Well, I was thinking to ask my parents or uncle if what you wrote works.

vijayjohn wrote:Yeah, I think so. I think their point was just that there's no வ் or ப்ப் in the அது/அவை forms (i.e. when the subject is inanimate).

Well, there two possibilities I can see based on the examples:

1) As I already wrote, for weak verbs, the future tense for when the subject is inanimate is formed by verb root + PNG suffix, and for strong verbs, it's verb root + க்க் + PNG suffix.

2) For weak verbs, the future tense for an inanimate singular subject is verb root + PNG suffix, but we don't (yet) know what to do for an inanimate plural subject. Conversely, for strong verbs, the future tense for an inanimate plural subject is verb root + க்க் + PNG suffix, but we don't (yet) know what to do for an inanimate singular subject.
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Re: Tamil Study Group

Postby księżycowy » 2018-11-04, 22:18

vijayjohn wrote:
I'm tempted to start a study group with you right now! :twisted:

I'd be fine with joining that group, of course. :P

Says the person that is still catching up on other study groups... *ahem*

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Re: Tamil Study Group

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-11-04, 22:52

I know. That's my eternal problem, especially when I also have a job. :P

Speaking of Tamil, if I get up early enough tomorrow, I may end up going to a Tamil restaurant! :D I could try going later, too, but they get really crowded pretty quickly.
dEhiN wrote:It looks like it's the 2006 version.

That seems to be what Amazon says, but I'm not sure whether they're right because I have another book with the exact same cover and the copyright information says, "This edition published 2003."
Let's just stop beating around the bush Vijay, and start study groups for every single language out there, even if it's just you and me in the group.

Yessss! :twisted:
Well, I was thinking to ask my parents or uncle if what you wrote works.

Good idea! :y:
Well, there two possibilities I can see based on the examples:

1) As I already wrote, for weak verbs, the future tense for when the subject is inanimate is formed by verb root + PNG suffix, and for strong verbs, it's verb root + க்க் + PNG suffix.

2) For weak verbs, the future tense for an inanimate singular subject is verb root + PNG suffix, but we don't (yet) know what to do for an inanimate plural subject. Conversely, for strong verbs, the future tense for an inanimate plural subject is verb root + க்க் + PNG suffix, but we don't (yet) know what to do for an inanimate singular subject.

I don't think the second possibility is right because the forms are the same regardless of whether the (inanimate) subject is singular or plural.

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Re: Tamil Study Group

Postby dEhiN » 2018-11-04, 23:03

vijayjohn wrote:Speaking of Tamil, if I get up early enough tomorrow, I may end up going to a Tamil restaurant! :D I could try going later, too, but they get really crowded pretty quickly.

So what's early enough?! :D Also, is it a Chettinad restaurant? There was a Chettinad Tamil restaurant that I went to in Toronto, and it was quite yummy but fairly pricey. I much preferred the myriad of Sri Lankan Tamil restaurants, which if you ever come up to Toronto, I'll come down and introduce you to. (The offer goes for anyone else as well!)
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Re: Tamil Study Group

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-11-04, 23:59

dEhiN wrote:So what's early enough?! :D

Probably by 8 AM because my dad's taking me to get a haircut first.
Also, is it a Chettinad restaurant?

Yep! I've never been to one before. It's called Sangam. (The name reminds me of the Tamil version of a Malayalam movie song. In Tamil, it's called "Sangam Valartha Tamil" :P).
There was a Chettinad Tamil restaurant that I went to in Toronto, and it was quite yummy but fairly pricey. I much preferred the myriad of Sri Lankan Tamil restaurants, which if you ever come up to Toronto, I'll come down and introduce you to. (The offer goes for anyone else as well!)

Thanks! I've never had a chance to eat any kind of non-Indian, non-Pakistani, or non-Nepali South Asian food before. :P

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Re: Tamil Study Group

Postby rmanoj » 2018-11-05, 4:42

The வ்/ப்ப forms for future-tense neuter verbs do exist, but I think they may be less common literary/ classical alternatives. All these seem to have been used in Sangam Tamil.

You will see words like செய்வது very often, but these are gerunds. "Doing" etc.

I seem to have the 2006 edition of TY Sanskrit. We can definitely start a study group if you want to do it

There are quite a few problems with the book—this review goes into it in some detail: https://sanskritstudio.wordpress.com/2012/11/18/review-of-sanskrit-teach-yourself-by-michael-coulson/
My main problem is with word order—the answers at the back often differ from mine in this respect, but there's really no way to tell if my versions are incorrect or unidiomatic.
I've also been sloppy with my Devanagari—the book lets me get away with it—and haven't memorised all the conjunct consonants. Many seem less intuitive than their Malayalam counterparts, but that's probably just my native bias speaking.
(I wish I could just write Sanskrit in Malayalam script, as people used to do before this Devanagari imperialism.)

I bought the book 10 (!) years ago and have made numerous false starts, but this time I've actually stuck to it—I've just finished chapter 6. The new Cambridge Introduction to Sanskrit is supposed to be very good, but I think I'll just persevere with this for now as I've got this far.

EDIT: On the other hand, the book's approach to sandhi is commendable. There's just a big table early on that you can refer to when needed, and you'll need it less and less as you internalise the patterns. Other books apparently introduce sandhi bit by bit, or leave it for later so that you're essentially working with fake, un-sandhi'd Sanskrit until then. I know people who did it at school in India who were never even told about sandhi. They just wrote and read fake Sanskrit for years.

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Re: Tamil Study Group

Postby dEhiN » 2018-11-05, 17:28

What's Sangam Tamil? And செய்வது does sound familiar to me. Do you know if there are any rules governing gerund use in Tamil? I know they exist and I have lying around somewhere a printout of a post you made some while back (I think on my Tamil thread) about how they are formed in Tamil.
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Re: Tamil Study Group

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-11-05, 19:09

dEhiN wrote:What's Sangam Tamil?

Tamil as used in literature from the Sangam period

Speaking of Sangam, I just got back from Sangam. :D The food was spicy as hell (this is very much a point in the restaurant's favor). I think as soon as I took my first bite, my dad told me in Malayalam that I should blow my nose (because it was running, and it continued to run the whole time). :lol: My dad also got filtered coffee at the very end, which was authentic in terms of presentation (though they didn't present the steel cup upside down) but not very flavorful in his opinion. He was happy, though, because he got to show me how to drink it and, according to him at least, hasn't had coffee served like this in fifty years. I am full, and he is so stuffed he may well have fallen asleep by now.

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Re: Tamil Study Group

Postby dEhiN » 2018-11-05, 19:52

Is chili spice a common ingredient in Malayalam cooking (especially curries)? I know the general trend in the subcontinent of South Asia is that as you go further south, the more chili is a common part of curries and cooking, while the further north you go, the less that's true. I do recall as well that while the Chettinad restaurant I went to had food (such as its dosais and mutton curry) that was similar in flavour to Sri Lankan flavour, there was also a certain difference that I couldn't pinpoint.
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Re: Tamil Study Group

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-11-05, 19:59

dEhiN wrote:Is chili spice a common ingredient in Malayalam cooking (especially curries)?

Red chilis? Yes, it is common in Malayalee cooking.
I know the general trend in the subcontinent of South Asia is that as you go further south, the more chili is a common part of curries and cooking, while the further north you go, the less that's true.

As usual, I think it's a bit more complicated than that. :P I've heard both that South Indians like their food spicier than North Indians and the other way around, and I don't think either of those is true and tolerance of spicy food varies an awful lot on an individual level even within families. People from around Delhi strike me as being big fans of red chilis.

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Re: Tamil Study Group

Postby dEhiN » 2018-11-05, 20:13

vijayjohn wrote:
dEhiN wrote:Is chili spice a common ingredient in Malayalam cooking (especially curries)?

Red chilis? Yes, it is common in Malayalee cooking.

Well, really any form of chili spice (or capsaicin). In Sri Lankan cooking (at least among my family, including for myself), red chili powder is used for some curries, but sometimes green chilies are used especially in white curries. Then there's red curry powder, which has red chili powder in it, but there's also black curry powder, which I think uses black pepper more than anything else.

vijayjohn wrote:As usual, I think it's a bit more complicated than that. :P I've heard both that South Indians like their food spicier than North Indians and the other way around, and I don't think either of those is true and tolerance of spicy food varies an awful lot on an individual level even within families. People from around Delhi strike me as being big fans of red chilis.

Yeah, I can see it being more complicated than that. I was referring to a generality I'd heard. But even in my own family, my sister doesn't like and can't handle that much spicy food. My mom can handle a bit more than her; I presume from growing up in Sri Lanka. My dad, brother and I like our food quite spicy.
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Re: Tamil Study Group

Postby rmanoj » 2018-11-06, 9:15

Yes, we use green chillis as well. With a double l.

Gerunds
I found some examples here: http://www.singarayan.com/part3/54.html
Note how these things have 'tense'. You'd use one constructed from the past stem when referring to past events. But example 9 seems really weird to me―in Malayalam, you certainly wouldn't use the past stem for something that didn't actually happen.

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Re: Tamil Study Group

Postby dEhiN » 2018-11-06, 17:15

rmanoj wrote:Yes, we use green chillis as well. With a double l.

Actually, both work, and the double l form is an alternative to the single l form.

rmanjo wrote:Gerunds
I found some examples here: http://www.singarayan.com/part3/54.html
Note how these things have 'tense'. You'd use one constructed from the past stem when referring to past events. But example 9 seems really weird to me―in Malayalam, you certainly wouldn't use the past stem for something that didn't actually happen.

Huh, thanks for the link! I'll have to check it out. I started perusing that site, and I like it. I've never come across it before. I was going through their page on case suffixes, and it's fairly helpful. My only complaint is that they split up the meaning/usage of some suffixes into multiple tables.
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