Tamil Study Group

[rmanoj]

Sounds good, and I've been having an interesting conversation with a Tamilian girl on Tinder, so there's my motivation.

[vijayjohn]

Ooh! Well, good luck then!

If the materials on the left-hand side, then we could possibly skip "Tamil Alphabet", unless a few others join the group who don't know the script.

We don't know if or when anyone else will join; it could take a week, it could take months, maybe it could even take years if this thread lasts that long! So I think it's fine to just go ahead and start working through it and/or figuring out where you'd like to start, as long as you're fine with potentially helping people catch up later.

All of which would apply to me, once I do eventually join.

That's ok; we can help you catch up. And depending on when you finally join, if Vijay, rmanoj and I are good enough in Tamil, we could have full on conversations in script about you all the while we help you (in English) to catch up!

Now I'm imagining you, rmanoj, and me standing around on Marina Beach in Chennai while watching księżycowy struggle to write இ in the sand.

[dEhiN]

Now I'm imagining you, rmanoj, and me standing around on Marina Beach in Chennai while watching księżycowy struggle to write இ in the sand.

"Now remember księżycowy, it's 3 small circles folowed by a loop, and looks like a person sitting cross-legged under an archway*"

*Ok, so not exactly since that would be a pretty fucked up archway that starts on the person's lap!

[księżycowy]

Fine! I quit!
*storms off*

[vijayjohn]

Now I'm imagining you, rmanoj, and me standing around on Marina Beach in Chennai while watching księżycowy struggle to write இ in the sand.

"Now remember księżycowy, it's 3 small circles folowed by a loop, and looks like a person sitting cross-legged under an archway*"

*Ok, so not exactly since that would be a pretty fucked up archway that starts on the person's lap!

"Wait, it is? I thought it was a tiny circle followed by a loop followed by an oval followed by another loop!"
(heated argument in Tamil begins)

[vijayjohn]

I just added the weekly assignment to the first post of this thread, following księżycowy's practice as suggested by ceid donn.

Here's an important note about Exercise #2 by the way, because it's a bit tricky, and while the instructions do helpfully point out that some of the questions require you to get some background information from the dialogues, they still don't help enough IMO! If all the options are questions, then you have to choose the most appropriate question that yields the given sentence as an answer. (For example, #5 says: என் தம்பி பெயர் கோபால். என் அண்ணன் பெயர் கோபால் இல்லை. The three options you get to choose are: a) யார் உங்கள் தம்பி? b) உங்கள் தம்பி பெயர் என்ன? c) உங்கள் அண்ணன் பெயர் கோபாலா? Since all three options are questions, you have to choose the most appropriate question that would yield என் தம்பி பெயர் etc. as an answer). Otherwise, choose the most appropriate and specific answer (I say "and specific" because there are technically two correct answers for question #9, but they want you to choose the most specific answer).

However, I'm also going to announce that anyone may complete the relevant exercises if and whenever they want to. If you don't want to, you don't have to. If you choose to post your answers before the deadline, please use the "spoil" and "/spoil" tags in square brackets to hide your answers! நன்றி!

I'm going to go ahead and do this myself (especially since I already did exercise 2 like three times before getting it all right without having to change any of my answers lol):

► Show Spoiler

Exercise 1

1. வணக்கம் - b. greetings
2. மாணவி - a. student
3. பெயர் - f. name
4. என் - d. my
5. அவர் - c. he that
6. ஆசிரியர் - e. teacher
7. மகிழ்ச்சி - g. glad
8. ரொம்ப - i. very
9. ஊர் - k. town
10. எது - j. which
11. இவர் - h. he this
12. ஜான் - l. John

Exercise 2

1. வணக்கம். வணக்கம்.
வணக்கம்.
2. என் பெயர் வள்ளி. உங்கள் பெயர் என்ன?
என் பெயர் கண்ணன்.
3. உங்கள் ஊர் எது?
சென்னை
4. நான் ஒரு தமிழ் ஆசிரியர்.
ரொம்ப மகிழ்ச்சி.
5. என் தம்பி பெயர் கோபால். என் அண்ணன் பெயர் கோபால் இல்லை.
உங்கள் அண்ணன் பெயர் கோபாலா?
6. பழனி யார் ஊர்?
முருகன் ஊர்.
7. வள்ளி ஊர் எது?
மதுரை.
8. என் பெயர் சுந்தர்
அப்படியா? ரொம்ப மகிழ்ச்சி
9. கண்ணன் யார்?
சிவா அண்ணன்
10. யார் தமிழ் மாணவி?
மேரி தமிழ் மாணவி

I'll also go ahead and say that a few of the translations into English in Exercise 1 are a bit odd, and Exercise 2 strikes me as really awkward for having such strict yet vague criteria.

[dEhiN]

I haven't done the dialogues nor exercises yet, though I'm hopefully going to get through them today. I got pretty busy last week toward the end of the week, and so wasn't able to check UniLang, and in turn forgot about the Tamil study group!

I have a couple of questions about the exercises. Mainly just vocab questions: what do பழனி, முருகன் and வள்ளி mean? Can I assume by the fact that the answer for exercise 2, number 6 is முருகன் ஊர், முருகன் is a place name?

Also, a few notes about the exercise 1 vocabulary:

1) மாணவி is a female student. மாணவன் is a male student.

2) அவர்/இவர் technically are just the 3rd singular masculine/feminine* polite nominative pronoun, so in other words they can also mean "she" when you need to speak with respect. And as far as I understand it, they don't actually mean "that/this" in the sense of 3rd singular inanimate nominative pronoun; you would use அது/இது for that. Also, அவர்/இவர் have a far/near distinction. So அவர் is used for someone who is far from you and இவர் for someone near. The same applies for அது/இது (hence "that/this"), அவர்கள்/இவர்கள் ("they"), அப்படி/இப்படி ("like that/this"), அங்கே/இங்கே ("there/here"), and அப்பொழுது/இப்பொழுது ("then/now").

3) ரொம்ப can also mean "many" or "a lot" if I'm not mistaken. It's an adverb whereas மிக்க, which means "much" or "great", is an adjective.

4) I learned that ஊர் can also mean "a specific place/area", so I suppose not just referring to a town or village, but a word generally used for a specific place?

[vijayjohn]

I haven't done the dialogues nor exercises yet, though I'm hopefully going to get through them today. I got pretty busy last week toward the end of the week, and so wasn't able to check UniLang, and in turn forgot about the Tamil study group!

No worries!

I have a couple of questions about the exercises. Mainly just vocab questions: what do பழனி, முருகன் and வள்ளி mean?

They're all proper nouns. பழனி is a placename, and முருகன் and வள்ளி are just the names of the first two characters in dialogue #1.

Can I assume by the fact that the answer for exercise 2, number 6 is முருகன் ஊர், முருகன் is a place name?

No, முருகன் ஊர் literally means 'Murugan's place', i.e. his hometown.

Also, a few notes about the exercise 1 vocabulary:

1) மாணவி is a female student. மாணவன் is a male student.

Yep!

2) அவர்/இவர் technically are just the 3rd singular masculine/feminine* polite nominative pronoun, so in other words they can also mean "she" when you need to speak with respect. And as far as I understand it, they don't actually mean "that/this" in the sense of 3rd singular inanimate nominative pronoun; you would use அது/இது for that. Also, அவர்/இவர் have a far/near distinction. So அவர் is used for someone who is far from you and இவர் for someone near. The same applies for அது/இது (hence "that/this"), அவர்கள்/இவர்கள் ("they"), அப்படி/இப்படி ("like that/this"), அங்கே/இங்கே ("there/here"), and அப்பொழுது/இப்பொழுது ("then/now").

Right, just like 'this' vs. 'that', 'here' vs. 'there', etc. in English.

3) ரொம்ப can also mean "many" or "a lot" if I'm not mistaken. It's an adverb whereas மிக்க, which means "much" or "great", is an adjective.

Hmm, okay, I think that makes sense. Malayalam has மிக்க but not ரொம்ப, which is apparently a uniquely Tamil innovation (I read somewhere once that it comes from வளரும்ப or something, which means something having to do with growing. Malayalam has pretty similar words having to do with growing, too).

4) I learned that ஊர் can also mean "a specific place/area", so I suppose not just referring to a town or village, but a word generally used for a specific place?

I think ஊர் just means 'place'...and can mean basically any kind of place. But I guess it depends on context.

[rmanoj]

I will go through it tomorrow but let me just briefly explain the cultural references they've sneaked in there. Murugan (முருகன்) is a major deity in Tamil Nadu and to a lesser extent the rest of south India. His Sanskrit names are Subrahmanya, Kartikeya and Kumara (as in Kalidasa's Kumara Sambhavam 'the birth of Kumara'). This is probably a case of a major Dravidian god being syncretized with a minor Hindu deity. Murugan's consorts are Valli (வள்ளி) and Devasena, hence the Carnatic composition 'Shri Valli Devasenapate' (O lord of Valli and Devasena). Devasena also means 'army of the gods', of which Murugan is the commander-in-chief. His greatest shrine is Palani or Pazhani (பழனி), a major pilgrimage site.

[dEhiN]

I will go through it tomorrow but let me just briefly explain the cultural references they've sneaked in there. Murugan (முருகன்) is a major deity in Tamil Nadu and to a lesser extent the rest of south India. His Sanskrit names are Subrahmanya, Kartikeya and Kumara (as in Kalidasa's Kumara Sambhavam 'the birth of Kumara'). This is probably a case of a major Dravidian god being syncretized with a minor Hindu deity. Murugan's consorts are Valli (வள்ளி) and Devasena, hence the Carnatic composition 'Shri Valli Devasenapate' (O lord of Valli and Devasena). Devasena also means 'army of the gods', of which Murugan is the commander-in-chief. His greatest shrine is Palani or Pazhani (பழனி), a major pilgrimage site.

மிக்க நன்றி ர் மனொஜ்.

[dEhiN]

I just listened through the dialogues, and I have to say, for me they speak very fast! Some words, such as என்னுடைய in கண்ணன் என்னுடைய அண்ணன் (Unit 1, Dialogue 2) sound to me like almost one syllable or phoneme! If I listen really closely, I can pick it out though.

I also noticed that they use the more common Indian Tamil word for doctor, டாக்டர். In Sri Lanka, I believe it's much more common to hear வைத்தியர்.

[vijayjohn]

They sound fast because they're acting out their lines and talking more like they normally would in real life, not like people reading a textbook out loud or something. I actually really appreciate that because it's more authentic and prepares us better for how people really talk instead of presenting us with an artificially slowed-down version of the language that doesn't really help with understanding what people are actually saying. I get how that can be hard to deal with, though. I think it just takes some getting used to, but that'll happen over time.

மிக்க நன்றி ர் மனொஜ்.

I'd write his username as ஆர். மனோஜ்.

Murugan btw is Ganesha's older brother and Shiva's son. Another name for Murugan (the one I personally am most familiar with) is Skanda. He has a lot of other names. The Malayalam poem I've been trying to memorize uses a whole bunch of them.

I also noticed that they use the more common Indian Tamil word for doctor, டாக்டர். In Sri Lanka, I believe it's much more common to hear வைத்தியர்.

Maybe so, but people say that in India, too, including later in this course IIRC (we say it in Malayalam as well; it's a loanword from Sanskrit vaidya). But yeah, we also use the English word a lot.

[rmanoj]

He is actually considered the the younger brother in the south Indian tradition.

In Malayalam, we use the word vaidyan for traditional ayurveda physicians, but we use 'doctor' for Western-style physicians and also modern ayurveda practicioners who are trained in universities and such.

[rmanoj]

I don't think I'll have any free time until Friday or Saturday. A lot of work this week. You guys can go ahead. I'll catch up.

[dEhiN]

Check in from me: I listened to Dialogues 1 & 2 and went through Exercise 1. I was planning on reading the grammar notes and doing Exercise 2, but I lost my laptop power chord and am getting a new one.

What do you guys want to do for next week?

[dEhiN]

I meant to reply to this a couple of days ago. So I finished reading the grammar of Dialogues 1 & 2, and also doing Exercise 2.

I was thinking that, if it's ok with you two, we could switch to weekly goals that start on Sunday and end on Saturday? That would make it easier for me to line up with my own TAC goals, including updating this thread and planning new goals.

I also was thinking that since rmanoj is a bit busy, perhaps for next week we could just do Dialogues 3 & 4. I believe Dialogue 4 has a fairly long grammar section, so the 2 dialgoues alone should be sufficient.

So that means that we will try to do Dialogues 3 & 4 by July 7.

[vijayjohn]

Yeah, that sounds good enough to me.

I completely ignored the grammar notes until now btw. I'll try to go through them, too, but at this point in the course, I'm not sure it has any information that any of us don't already know.

[dEhiN]

Yeah, that sounds good enough to me.

I completely ignored the grammar notes until now btw. I'll try to go through them, too, but at this point in the course, I'm not sure it has any information that any of us don't already know.

That's true, plus I think some of the points I would contest anyway. But I figure it's part of the course, so at least reading through it would be helpful. I'm definitely not writing anything down, even if I come across new vocab.

Edit: Could you update the weekly assignment in the first post to reflect this week's goal(s)? Thanks.

[vijayjohn]

Done!

I listened to both dialogues and went through all the grammar notes except for the ones for DIalogue 4, which I'm reading now.

[dEhiN]

I listened to both dialogues and I have a few questions about words that I'm not sure the meaning of and don't seem to be in the glossary.

For Dialogue 3:

1) வேடிக்கை அர்த்தம் என்ன?

2) Is இதெல்லாம் just a contraction of இது and எல்லாம்? If so, why contract? Why not just keep it as two separate words, when it's not like one is a suffix?

3) நிறையெ அர்த்தம் என்ன?

For Dialogue 4:

1) கல்லா அர்த்தம் என்ன? If it is just the word கல் with the interrogative suffix ஆ, then why does the Child ask (in the 3rd line) இது கல்லா இரும்பா? Wouldn't it make more sense to add அல்லது, so you have இது கல்லா அல்லது இரும்பா "Is this stone or iron"? Or is he asking something else?

Also, I have to say that the difference between பல் and பால் is very slight and I can barely notice it. In my family, there's more of a difference: /pæl/ vs /paːl/. So even the geminated /a/ is pronounced as such in 'milk'. The way the man and child pronounce geminated /a/ sounds basically like ungeminated /a/!