Tamil Study Group

[dEhiN]

For Exercise 4, I couldn't do 4 of the questions. Here are the correct answers for the rest:

1) என் பெயர் கண்ணன்

2) உங்கள் ஊர் தமிழ்நாடா?

3) நீங்கள் தமிழா?

4) ஜான் யார்?

5)

6)

7) தமிழ் மொழி என் தாய்மொழி

8)

9)

10) இது கல்லா இரும்பா ?

[vijayjohn]

The key to the first three of those four questions is that you can't possibly use all the words provided to you to produce a correct answer (in fact, in the last one, i.e. #8, some of the options given to you are not even real words and are probably meant to trip you up!). The key to the last of those four questions is that you can use one of the words provided to you twice.

Apparently, the answers they were looking for were:

► Show Spoiler

5. என் ஊர் கனடா இந்தியா இல்லை
6. உங்கள் பெயர் மேரியா ஆனா ?
8. இது பாலா பல்லா ? (This is the only one of these four questions that I actually got right on the first try)
9. இந்த சிலை கல் சிலையா இரும்பு சிலையா ?

[księżycowy]

I'm glad I got you guys as sn answer key when I start working through the lessons.

I meant to say this earlier too, but the book version comes with a DVD that contains the same stuff as the website. It even opens with a web browser. So it's both the same as the website and different.

[dEhiN]

The key to the first three of those four questions is that you can't possibly use all the words provided to you to produce a correct answer (in fact, in the last one, i.e. #8, some of the options given to you are not even real words and are probably meant to trip you up!). The key to the last of those four questions is that you can use one of the words provided to you twice.

Apparently, the answers they were looking for were:
5. என் ஊர் கனடா இந்தியா இல்லை
6. உங்கள் பெயர் மேரியா ஆனா ?
8. இது பாலா பல்லா ? (This is the only one of these four questions that I actually got right on the first try)
9. இந்த சிலை கல் சிலையா இரும்பு சிலையா ?

Huh, thanks! I figured not all the words provided were meant to be used. I think the fact that they (or I suppose written Tamil in general?) doesn't need the use of commas or அல்லது (or) in situations where English would trips me up. For example, with number 5, I would add a comma because that's what would work in English. For number 6, I figured மேரியா was a name, but didn't realize ஆனா was the last name. For number 7, the non-use of "or" confused me. And the same basically for number 8.

Also, why is a question mark still used if the interrogative suffix is used? I always thought in languages that had an interrogative suffix/particle, that (in writing at least) the suffix/particle replaced the question mark in denoting a question.

[vijayjohn]

I think the fact that they (or I suppose written Tamil in general?) doesn't need the use of commas or அல்லது (or) in situations where English would trips me up. For example, with number 5, I would add a comma because that's what would work in English.

In that particular example, I think that was just them, really. But English AFAICT has unusually strict (and honestly rather complicated) rules regarding punctuation compared to most languages, including most written languages.

For number 6, I figured மேரியா was a name, but didn't realize ஆனா was the last name.

It's not a last name. They're both just English first names + the -ஆ suffix. மேரியா ஆனா means 'Mary or Ann(e)?'.

EDIT: But yeah, ஆனா definitely tripped me up because they've never mentioned anybody named either Ann or Anne before.

Also, why is a question mark still used if the interrogative suffix is used? I always thought in languages that had an interrogative suffix/particle, that (in writing at least) the suffix/particle replaced the question mark in denoting a question.

It doesn't. That's just Japanese convention.

EDIT2:

For me, என் is கொடுந்தமிழ் in India, while எண்டே is கொடுந்தமிழ் in Sri Lanka.

I think they're both கொடுந்தமிழ் in both countries actually. At least in Tamil Nadu, they're clearly both கொடுந்தமிழ், so I've never understood what the difference was. (Remember Unit 1, Lesson 2?
Kannan: என் பெயர் கண்ணன்.
Siva: கண்ணன் என்னுடைய அண்ணன்.).

(Also, it should be spelled with முண்டு சுழி ண், not ரெண்டு சுழி ன் as I did above.)

It's supposed to be spelled என்னுடைய AFAIK, but I did a Google search and found results for என்டே (as well as for எண்டே), so...*shrug*.

[vijayjohn]

Okay, so I was actually wrong about them not teaching us என்னுடைய yet, I guess. But IIRC these forms are just interchangeable in Tamil or something (whereas in Malayalam, there's definitely a clear difference; என் is only ever found in literature, including poems and movie songs).

Anyway, shall we aim for doing Dialogues 5-6 by next Saturday, August 11?

Btw I'm confused by this:

அது சரியான உன்மை.

What was that supposed to mean? And truth is உண்மை, not *உன்மை.

[dEhiN]

Yeah I know both என் and என்னுடைய are used in both countries; I was referring to the shortening of என்னுடைய as எண்டே/என்டே as something I though was only a SLT கொடுந்தமிழ் thing. But I might be wrong. I am fairly sure that என் is rarely used in SLT கொடுந்தமிழ். I've really only ever heard என்னுடைய, எண்டே, and எனது.

Anyway, shall we aim for doing Dialogues 5-6 by next Saturday, August 11?

Sure; I think I might just focus more on reading/listening and absorbing the content rather than try to fully learn every grammar point.

Btw I'm confused by this:

அது சரியான உன்மை.

What was that supposed to mean? And truth is உண்மை, not *உன்மை.

Right, thank you! சரியான means "very" or "really", at least in SLT கொடுந்தமிழ்.

[vijayjohn]

Yeah I know both என் and என்னுடைய are used in both countries; I was referring to the shortening of என்னுடைய as எண்டே/என்டே as something I though was only a SLT கொடுந்தமிழ் thing. But I might be wrong. I am fairly sure that என் is rarely used in SLT கொடுந்தமிழ். I've really only ever heard என்னுடைய, எண்டே, and எனது.

Oh OK, interesting! In Malayalam, we say [ɛnˈde].

Sure; I think I might just focus more on reading/listening and absorbing the content rather than try to fully learn every grammar point.

That's all I've been doing anyway. Schedule updated!

Btw I'm confused by this:

அது சரியான உன்மை.

What was that supposed to mean? And truth is உண்மை, not *உன்மை.

Right, thank you! சரியான means "very" or "really", at least in SLT கொடுந்தமிழ்.

Right, and I think it means 'really' (but not 'very'?) in India, too, but I don't know whether that expression makes sense in Tamil since I'm not sure it's possible to talk about something being 'very true' in South Asian languages in general. I think you'd just say அது உண்மைதான்.

[dEhiN]

Right, and I think it means 'really' (but not 'very'?) in India, too, but I don't know whether that expression makes sense in Tamil since I'm not sure it's possible to talk about something being 'very true' in South Asian languages in general. I think you'd just say அது உண்மைதான்.

Maybe it only means 'really' in Sri Lanka too; I know phrases like சரியான பசிக்கது work. But somehow what you said sounds more correct. Thanks!

[vijayjohn]

So did you read those two dialogues, dEhiN? Should we move on to Exercises 5-6 for next Saturday? That would be August 18.

[dEhiN]

I confess I only did Dialogue 5. I got stuck on the new vocabulary - I wanted to write out the new vocab (which were mostly the postpositions) in my notebook. I didn't have my notebook with me when I went through the dialogue initially. So could we do just dialogue 6 this week? Also, could we do one dialogue per week? During the non-dialogue weeks, we can do any amount of readings and exercises, since those aren't that intensive for me.

[vijayjohn]

I confess I only did Dialogue 5. I got stuck on the new vocabulary - I wanted to write out the new vocab (which were mostly the postpositions) in my notebook. I didn't have my notebook with me when I went through the dialogue initially.

Wait, there are postpositions in this dialogue? I don't see any. Or do you mean in the notes?

So could we do just dialogue 6 this week? Also, could we do one dialogue per week?

Sure! Dialogue #6 is now due on August 18.

During the non-dialogue weeks, we can do any amount of readings and exercises, since those aren't that intensive for me.

Really? The exercises are kind of hard even for me because they make no sense sometimes. (Speaking of which, heads-up in advance for Exercise #5!).

[dEhiN]

I confess I only did Dialogue 5. I got stuck on the new vocabulary - I wanted to write out the new vocab (which were mostly the postpositions) in my notebook. I didn't have my notebook with me when I went through the dialogue initially.

Wait, there are postpositions in this dialogue? I don't see any. Or do you mean in the notes?

Yeah, I meant the notes.

Sure! Dialogue #6 is now due on August 18.

Nandri!

During the non-dialogue weeks, we can do any amount of readings and exercises, since those aren't that intensive for me.

Really? The exercises are kind of hard even for me because they make no sense sometimes. (Speaking of which, heads-up in advance for Exercise #5!).

Well sure the exercises can be kinda hard. But I find that they take up less time in general, and I feel like I can go through them at a quicker pace than with the dialogues. Maybe it's because the grammar is basically all new stuff, and so even if I'm not taking down notes on grammar points, I'm still learning new material. Throw in the new vocabulary and I feel like it requires more of a time commitment to sit down and go through the dialogue and notes. I'm still debating about whether to add every new word from any dialogues/notes to Anki or not. It would be a great way to grow my vocabulary base, but it takes more effort and time than just listening to and reading through the dialogues/notes.

[vijayjohn]

I ignore the notes by default, and the vocabulary is pretty easy for me, but the reason why I ignore the notes is because I hate reading about grammar if I can get away with not doing it (especially given the sometimes not-so-great descriptions of the grammar in materials like these), and the reason why the vocabulary is easy is partly because of Malayalam and partly because I've learned bits and pieces of Tamil since childhood anyway.

[księżycowy]

I take it you learn grammar inductively then?

[vijayjohn]

I prefer to, if possible, especially because I've had to do that sometimes. I've never found a grammar that did a good job of explaining all the things I've wondered about grammar in either Tamil or Malayalam. Just asking people questions is far more effective IME.

[księżycowy]

I can appreciate that, but I also like a grammar for whatever explanations it can give. Middle of the road.

[vijayjohn]

I appreciate grammars on some level and even use them for certain languages (where few other resources exist) but have little patience left especially for the half-baked explanations so common in Indian textbooks, including this one (even though it's in electronic form in this case), after struggling with them for so many years. The organization is absolutely dismal, they create more questions than they answer, and I think perhaps most importantly, they try way too hard to take the kind of techniques used to teach native speakers the grammar of their own language and apply them to teaching people that language as a foreign language. It really doesn't work.

[dEhiN]

Could you give an example for this course? So far I'm finding the grammar explanations helpful. For languages where the grammar is similar to English, I can pick up the grammar intuitively, but for languages like Tamil, I have a harder time. I suppose certain things, like the Tamil plural suffix, I picked up intuitively, but for others, like the case suffixes, I needed an explanation. As for the vocabulary, because I want to eventually become at least conversationally fluent, I figure learning every new word I come across will be beneficial. But, maybe not?

[vijayjohn]

I may just be biased since I'm approaching these resources from a very different perspective compared to you, but take the very first dialogue. It only has four pronouns in it, but in the notes, they immediately give you all the pronouns in nominative and genitive case. How often do you see that happening right after the very first dialogue of a Teach Yourself or Colloquial book, for instance? I'd worry that that would run the risk of overwhelming the learner quickly, though I guess in reality, it probably depends on the learner.