dEhiN's Tamil Thread

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dEhiN's Tamil Thread

Postby dEhiN » 2017-01-21, 13:13

வணக்கம் எல்லாம். என்னுடைய பேர் dEhiN. This is my Tamil thread. See here for a background of who I am and why I'm learning Tamil.

I'm going to post questions I have in Tamil, and hopefully eventually translations. I'm a beginner in Tamil. Whenever I can, I will write in Tamil but probably in செந்தமிழ். கொடுந்தமிழ் is difficult for me because I want to learn Sri Lankan கொடுந்தமிழ் and most Tamil native speakers I meet online are from Tamil Nadu. I think maybe if I learn proper செந்தமிழ் first, then I can use my Tamil family and friends where I live to practice Sri Lankan கொடுந்தமிழ்.

With that said, I will probably still ask some pronunciation questions. For example, do Tamils generally pronounce கொஞ்சம் as /koɲd͡ʒəm/ or /koɲd͡ʑəm/?

நன்றி.
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Re: dEhiN's Tamil Thread

Postby vijayjohn » 2017-01-23, 8:13

dEhiN wrote:வணக்கம் எல்லாம்.

I think எல்லாம் means 'everything', not 'everyone'. I would think "hi everyone" would be something more like எல்லாருக்கும் வணக்கம். Or am I totally off base here? I suspect Aekalaivan or someone like that may be able to give some more valuable feedback here than I can.
For example, do Tamils generally pronounce கொஞ்சம் as /koɲd͡ʒəm/ or /koɲd͡ʑəm/?

Tbh I don't think the difference between [d͡ʒ] and [d͡ʑ] is big enough for anyone (or at least any native speakers of Tamil) to reliably notice. I feel even linguists screw this up all the time to the point where there is some linguist for each of all sorts of Asian languages claiming that they have [t͡ɕ] and [d͡ʑ] rather than [t͡ʃ] and [d͡ʒ]. People say this for Malayalam as well, but I use [t͡ʃ] and [d͡ʒ] all the time and no one has ever once batted an eyelid in all the 28 years I've been doing this.

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Re: dEhiN's Tamil Thread

Postby dEhiN » 2017-01-24, 0:55

vijayjohn wrote:
dEhiN wrote:வணக்கம் எல்லாம்.

I think எல்லாம் means 'everything', not 'everyone'. I would think "hi everyone" would be something more like எல்லாருக்கும் வணக்கம். Or am I totally off base here? I suspect Aekalaivan or someone like that may be able to give some more valuable feedback here than I can.

ந்ன்றி வீஜை (or: விஜை?).

I was using Agarathi as a resource, and thought there was an entry that basically said using எல்லாம் for 'everyone' is ok. But looking at it again, I think it should be எல்லாரும். There are two entries on that Agarathi page that uses எல்லாரும் when talking about people:
நாமெல்லாரும், all of us.
நீங்களெல்லாரும், all of you.


vijayjohn wrote:Tbh I don't think the difference between [d͡ʒ] and [d͡ʑ] is big enough for anyone (or at least any native speakers of Tamil) to reliably notice. I feel even linguists screw this up all the time to the point where there is some linguist for each of all sorts of Asian languages claiming that they have [t͡ɕ] and [d͡ʑ] rather than [t͡ʃ] and [d͡ʒ]. People say this for Malayalam as well, but I use [t͡ʃ] and [d͡ʒ] all the time and no one has ever once batted an eyelid in all the 28 years I've been doing this.

That's good to know! I used to use [t͡ʃ] and [d͡ʒ] and I'm pretty sure my parents use them too. But I assumed that's due to English influence. It is easier for me to use those two rather than [t͡ɕ] and [d͡ʑ] in Tamil, so I'll continue using what I first used.
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Re: dEhiN's Tamil Thread

Postby vijayjohn » 2017-01-24, 4:56

dEhiN wrote:ந்ன்றி வீஜை (or: விஜை?).

விஜய், I guess, but my Malayalee name would be விஜயன், which would probably make more sense as a Tamil name, too. I think "thanks, Vijay!" would be விஜயனுக்கு நன்றி!
I was using Agarathi as a resource, and thought there was an entry that basically said using எல்லாம் for 'everyone' is ok. But looking at it again, I think it should be எல்லாரும். There are two entries on that Agarathi page that uses எல்லாரும் when talking about people:
நாமெல்லாரும், all of us.
நீங்களெல்லாரும், all of you.

Yeah, that makes sense. They list one of the possible meanings as "All, personal as well as impersonal," so that may have been what confused you, but their only examples are அவர்கள் எல்லாம் போனார்கள் and அவை எல்லாம் போயின, both meaning 'they all went/left/disappeared' (where the first one refers to people and the second refers to things).
That's good to know! I used to use [t͡ʃ] and [d͡ʒ] and I'm pretty sure my parents use them too. But I assumed that's due to English influence. It is easier for me to use those two rather than [t͡ɕ] and [d͡ʑ] in Tamil, so I'll continue using what I first used.

:y:

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Re: dEhiN's Tamil Thread

Postby dEhiN » 2017-01-24, 5:01

vijayjohn wrote:
dEhiN wrote:ந்ன்றி வீஜை (or: விஜை?).

விஜய், I guess, but my Malayalee name would be விஜயன், which would probably make more sense as a Tamil name, too. I think "thanks, Vijay!" would be விஜயனுக்கு நன்றி!

விஜயனுக்கு ந்ன்றி! :D
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Re: dEhiN's Tamil Thread

Postby dEhiN » 2018-02-09, 20:29

I haven't posted on here in quite a while, but as I recently mentioned on the "Dravidian languages" thread, I'm going to start posting on here more often. For anyone reading this who doesn't follow my TAC, I've started taking weekly private Tamil lessons from a Sri Lankan Tamil tutor. We're going through a lot of new vocabulary, which is great. I would like to go through some grammar stuff as well, but perhaps she's not used to doing that? She is a Tamil teacher for the public school board, and we're going through the same materials she uses with her school kids. Anyway, I figured one way I could post on here more often is to list out the vocabulary I learn every week. So this is from February 5:

மூடு - close [v. root]
பிடி - catch [v. root]
படு - sleep [v. root]
பாட்டு - song
இசை - music
ஆசிரியர் - teacher
பேராசிரியர் - professor
பணி - work
புராதனம் - old; ancient
புராதனம் - Old Tamil; ancient Tamil
ஆய்வு - research
தமிழகம் - Tamil Nadu
பல்கலைக்கழகம் - university
வெள்ளைநிறம் - white (colour)
உள்ளம் - heart; mind [used poetically]
கமலம் - lotus flower
உத்தமன் - honest person
உத்தமனார் - honest person [pol.]; God
பிரசித்தம் - famous
புகழ் - famous
பாடல் - song
ஏறு - climb [v. root]
நிலா - moon
ஓடு - run [v. root]
மலை - mountain
மேல் - on
மல்லிகைப் பூ - jasmine flower
கொண்டு - bring [v. root]
வட்டம் - circle
முகில் - cloud
வண்ணம் - colourful; beauty; beautiful
அழகு - beauty; beautiful
பற - fly [v. root]
சுற்றி - spiral [v. root]
பம்பரம் - spinning top (i.e., children's toy)
சேவல் - rooster
வண்ணத்துப்பூச்சி - butterfly
புச்சி - insect
வாத்து - duck
பிட்டு - puttu/pittu (i.e., type of Sri Lankan food)
தோசை - dosa
அப்பம் - hopper (i.e., type of Sri Lankan food)
பாண் - bread
இடியப்பம் - stringhoppers (i.e., type of Sri Lankan food)

The food terms I already knew, at least in terms of speaking them. But I'd never written some of them (i.e., I didn't realize பாண் took muundu* suzhi na, which I guess means I've been saying it wrong!). One thing I'm confused about is why my Tamil teacher said பிடி means "catch". I thought it would be the verb root for "like", since a sentence like இது பிடிக்கும் means "I like this".

*I wrote muundu because in spoken SLT, ன்ற becomes nda, rather than nna like in spoken IT.
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Re: dEhiN's Tamil Thread

Postby dEhiN » 2018-02-09, 21:12

In class my teacher taught me a children's song that goes like this:

நிலா நிலா ஓடி வா
நில்லாமல் ஓடி வா
மலை மேல் ஏறி வா
மல்லிகைப் பூ கொண்டு வா
வட்ட வட்ட நிலாவே
வண்ண முகில் பூவை
பட்டம் போலே பறந்து வா
பம்பரமாய்ச் சுற்றி வா


Let me see if I can translate that:

நிலா நிலா ஓடி வா
moon moon come running (lit. moon moon ran come)
நில்லாமல் ஓடி வா
?? come running
மலை மேல் ஏறி வா
come over the mountain (lit. mountain on climbed come)
மல்லிகைப் பூ கொண்டு வா
come bring a jasmine flower (lit. jasmine flower bring come)
வட்ட வட்ட நிலாவே
circle circle ??
வண்ண முகில் பூவை
beautiful cloud ??
பட்டம் போலே பறந்து வா
??? (lit. kite ?? flew come)
பம்பரமாய்ச் சுற்றி வா
come spinning like a top (lit. top spin come)

I'm not sure why sometimes the second verb is in the past tense and other times it's in the imperative. (In Tamil, the verb root also functions as the imperative). Either that, or something like ஓடி is really the verb root when conjugated for the past tense. The full past tense would have to include a tense suffix and a person suffix. So maybe it's more like a past imperative? But that still doesn't explain why ஓடி, ஏறி and பறந்து are in past forms, while கொண்டு and சுற்றி are in present forms.

I still have trouble with understanding certain changes that are made to words. For example, it seems to me that நிலாவே has to do with the moon, but why the addition of -வே? What does that change in terms of the meaning? In the case of நில்லாமல், I know நில் is the verb root for "stop/stand/wait", but I don't know how to parse the rest of that. I'm pretty sure போலே is related to the verb root போ which means "go", but if so, what does the -லே suffix mean? And finally, it seems to me that பூவை has something to do with flowers (பூ means "flower"), but then what does the -வை suffix mean?
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Re: dEhiN's Tamil Thread

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-02-10, 4:00

dEhiN wrote:நில்லாமல் ஓடி வா
?? come running

"Without waiting"
வண்ண முகில் பூவை
beautiful cloud ??

பூவை can apparently mean a myna bird, a woman, a kind of tree, or Vishnu.
பட்டம் போலே பறந்து வா
??? (lit. kite ?? flew come)

"Come flying like a kite"
I'm not sure why sometimes the second verb is in the past tense and other times it's in the imperative. (In Tamil, the verb root also functions as the imperative). Either that, or something like ஓடி is really the verb root when conjugated for the past tense. The full past tense would have to include a tense suffix and a person suffix. So maybe it's more like a past imperative? But that still doesn't explain why ஓடி, ஏறி and பறந்து are in past forms, while கொண்டு and சுற்றி are in present forms.

Those are all past tense.

For example, it seems to me that நிலாவே has to do with the moon, but why the addition of -வே?

Vocative suffix. "Moon" vs. "o moon!"
In the case of நில்லாமல், I know நில் is the verb root for "stop/stand/wait", but I don't know how to parse the rest of that.

-ஆமல் (if I'm remembering the form of the suffix correctly) means 'without'.
I'm pretty sure போலே is related to the verb root போ which means "go", but if so, what does the -லே suffix mean?

It's not. போலே is a postposition that means 'like'.
And finally, it seems to me that பூவை has something to do with flowers (பூ means "flower"), but then what does the -வை suffix mean?

பூவை could mean 'flower' in accusative case, but I don't think that's what it means here since that wouldn't seem to make sense in this context.

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Re: dEhiN's Tamil Thread

Postby rmanoj » 2018-02-10, 6:42

Vijay has covered most of it. Just a couple of things:

I think பூவை here may just be 'flower' in the vocative. I've seen that kind of thing before, eg in a line from a song: பூவை உன்னை பார்த்த பின்னே பூக்களின் மொழி அறிந்தேன் 'After seeing you, o flower, I knew the language of the flowers'.

The things that look like verbs in the past tense without PNG ( :P ) endings, like ஓடி, ஏறி, பறந்து, சுற்றி, are 'adverbial participles' வினை எச்சம். They are generally used to denote some action that chronologically precedes the main verb. So நான் குளித்து வந்தேன் would be 'After having bathed, I came' or 'I bathed and came'. But there are also non-sequential usages like the ones in this poem—ஓடி வா 'come running', பறந்து வா 'come flying' etc.

There are also other kinds of வினை எச்சம் (going by the Malayalam terminology, the one we've just discussed is முன் வினை எச்சம்). நடு வினை எச்சம் is the dictionary form of the verb, which I believe is generally considered the infinitive in Tamil. This is used when there is no strict relation of time or purpose to the main verb. For example, குளிக்கத் தொடங்கினேன் 'I started to bathe'. (This function has been usurped by பின் வினை எச்சம் in Malayalam).

Then there is பின் வினை எச்சம், used to express purpose or intent. This is obsolete in Indian Tamil, replaced by the நடு வினை எச்சம் described above, but is preserved in Malayalam and Sri Lankan Tamil. There were two interchangeable endings for this in Old Tamil— -ப்பான் and -மாறு. Malayalam mostly uses the former, while I believe SLT mostly uses the latter. So you have things like நான் குளிக்குமாறு வந்தேன் or (archaic) நான் குளிப்பான் வந்தேன் 'I came in order to bathe'.

Note: I know the term வினை எச்சம் is used in Tamil, but the முன்/ நடு/ பின் terminology is from Malayalam grammar, so I would check with someone before using those in Tamil. And there are also other classes of வினை எச்சம், at least in Malayalam—I'll check when I get home.

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Re: dEhiN's Tamil Thread

Postby rmanoj » 2018-02-10, 8:34

Checked with a native speaker―பூவை can be a vocative.
As for பிடி, it's the same in Malayalam. The verb means 'catch' or 'hold'. It only signifies 'like' in dative subject constructions.

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Re: dEhiN's Tamil Thread

Postby rmanoj » 2018-02-17, 5:59

Did I kill the thread? :para:

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Re: dEhiN's Tamil Thread

Postby dEhiN » 2018-02-17, 15:54

rmanoj wrote:Did I kill the thread? :para:

Yes! :twisted:

No, it's that I don't always get around to responding to certain things right away. Sometimes it takes me a few days to a week or so. (I use an app to help me schedule my tasks for the day/week, so I actually have in there a task to respond to both your and Vijay's replies, but I haven't gotten around to it yet!) One reason for that is that I deal with mild depression, which this week has been really affecting me. So, on top of juggling multiple languages, as well as other things like work, a social life, etc., when the depression flares up, I'm less motivated to do anything. When it comes to language studies, a lot of times on those days all I really aim for is my daily Anki review (and maybe general replies on here).
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Re: dEhiN's Tamil Thread

Postby dEhiN » 2018-02-17, 16:00

dEhiN wrote:வணக்கம் எல்லாம். என்னுடைய பேர் dEhiN.

I was rereading the first few posts on here, and realized I spelled 'name' wrong! I don't know why I thought it was *பேர், but it should be என்னுடைய பெயர் dEhiN. Or I guess I could also say எனது பெயர் or even என் பெயர்.
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Re: dEhiN's Tamil Thread

Postby rmanoj » 2018-02-17, 19:06

Ah. I hope you are doing better now. As Winston Churchill would say when faced with the "black dog" of depression, KBO (keep buggering on).

dEhiN wrote:
dEhiN wrote:வணக்கம் எல்லாம். என்னுடைய பேர் dEhiN.

I was rereading the first few posts on here, and realized I spelled 'name' wrong! I don't know why I thought it was *பேர், but it should be என்னுடைய பெயர் dEhiN. Or I guess I could also say எனது பெயர் or even என் பெயர்.

Yeah, any of those three would be fine. என் பெயர் seems the most normal to me, but that may be an Indian Tamil thing.

பேர் is actually a variant listed in the Tamil lexicon, and it's also used in formal Malayalam (which doesn't have the original பெயர் form). There is also பேரு, which is used in normal Malayalam and colloquial Indian Tamil.

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Re: dEhiN's Tamil Thread

Postby dEhiN » 2018-02-17, 19:31

rmanoj wrote:Ah. I hope you are doing better now. As Winston Churchill would say when faced with the "black dog" of depression, KBO (keep buggering on).

Thanks! I think it's slowly getting better.

rmanjo wrote:பேர் is actually a variant listed in the Tamil lexicon, and it's also used in formal Malayalam (which doesn't have the original பெயர் form). There is also பேரு, which is used in normal Malayalam and colloquial Indian Tamil.

I've never heard பேரு, so it must be a colloquial IT thing. I didn't remember பேர் being a variant, but in the past maybe I knew it or came across it; that could explain why I used it and no one corrected me.
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Re: dEhiN's Tamil Thread

Postby rmanoj » 2018-02-18, 6:57

You've never heard this song?
https://youtu.be/aIbXEwaCBbM

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Re: dEhiN's Tamil Thread

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-02-18, 15:42

:lol: I've definitely heard that song, but I doubt dEhiN has.

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dEhiN
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Re: dEhiN's Tamil Thread

Postby dEhiN » 2018-02-19, 4:53

Yeah, sadly I don't watch/listen to a lot of Tamil media. I've watched probably 2 Kollywood movies at most (at least from start to finish).
My TAC for 2018.

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