Dravidian Languages

Moderator: vijayjohn

הענט

Re: A Dravidian Lingua Franca

Postby הענט » 2018-02-01, 15:42

Stomach is kadupu not kaduvu. :)

vijayjohn
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 21168
Joined: 2013-01-10, 8:49
Real Name: Vijay John
Gender: male
Location: Austin
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: A Dravidian Lingua Franca

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-02-01, 15:48

Ahh, okay, thanks! I always get pa and va mixed up in Telugu script because I can't tell whether the little check-mark thingy at the top is touching the rest of the letter or not. (Yes, of course I know the technical terms for everything! Why do you ask? :P).

User avatar
dEhiN
Forum Administrator
Posts: 5612
Joined: 2013-08-18, 2:51
Real Name: David
Gender: male
Location: Toronto
Country: CA Canada (Canada)
Contact:

Re: A Dravidian Lingua Franca

Postby dEhiN » 2018-02-02, 3:36

vijayjohn wrote:In Dravidian languages (including Malayalam, Tamil, and Hent's Telugu example), 'full' isn't an adjective like in English. Instead, we use a verb meaning 'to become full'. Literally, our expressions for 'my stomach is full' mean '(my) stomach became full'. (In Malayalam and Telugu, it's definitely grammatical to include the 'my' part, but this doesn't seem to be the case in Tamil). In Tamil (well, in Centamil :P), '(my) stomach is full' would be வயறு நிறைந்தது.

Huh, good to know! From the little I know in Tamil, I'm pretty sure you could include the 'my' part but it's probably option. Like I could probably say எனது வயறு நிறைந்தது.


vijayjohn wrote:I think that Telugu sentence is pronounced something like [naː kəɖuʋu niɳɖin̪d̪i].

Hent wrote:Stomach is kadupu not kaduvu. :)

So is Telugu kadupu cognate with Tamil vayaru? The vowels seem similar enough, but the consonants are completely different from each other.
My TAC for 2018.

(en-CA) (ta-lk) (fr) (pt-BR) (es) (ko) (sv) (ro)

vijayjohn
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 21168
Joined: 2013-01-10, 8:49
Real Name: Vijay John
Gender: male
Location: Austin
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: A Dravidian Lingua Franca

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-02-02, 5:38

dEhiN wrote:From the little I know in Tamil, I'm pretty sure you could include the 'my' part but it's probably option. Like I could probably say எனது வயறு நிறைந்தது.

Huh, okay. (I'm sure you've told me about this before, but எனது? Really? :lol: I thought it was என்...I'm so confused as to what the difference between the two is).
So is Telugu kadupu cognate with Tamil vayaru?

I don't see how it could be, but the Dravidian Etymological Dictionary isn't being particularly helpful. :(

rmanoj
Posts: 73
Joined: 2011-05-02, 8:23
Gender: male
Country: IN India (भारत / India)

Re: A Dravidian Lingua Franca

Postby rmanoj » 2018-02-02, 6:20

It's வயிறு in Tamil, by the way, not வயறு.
vijayjohn wrote:.
rmanoj wrote:What do you mean? The various small kingdoms in Kerala didn't use Malayalam at court?

How many of them had courts in the first place? How long did most kingdoms in Kerala last? My understanding is that the set of kingdoms within modern-day Kerala was constantly shifting due to the endless family feuds among the Nairs and that some of them were effectively city-states. "Kingdom" may not even be an accurate term in all cases.

I mean, ഐതീഹ്യമാല, for example, is mostly set in the 18th century as far as I'm aware and has plenty of untranslated dialogue in Sanskrit, frequently hinting at an assumption on the part of the author that any literate person would be able to understand it. The second story in it is about the kingdom of Kottayam, where the prince visits the court of a neighboring kingdom where he has to speak in Sanskrit, but he makes a language blunder and his own mother is so outraged she nearly murders him. If Sanskrit had that much administrative importance at such a late period, I don't see what the motivation for using Malayalam would have been, especially when Malayalam was apparently not even used very often for writing prose until the mid-19th century.

Sorry, I've had a busy week at work so haven't replied until now.
Many of the "kingdoms" are better classified as minor chieftancies, yes, but the larger ones like Venad, Kozhikode etc could probably be considered semi-functioning states. Also, the 16th-18th centuries may have been a high watermark for political disintegration in the region. The Portuguese arrived at a time when the Zamorin was on the cusp of consolidating his domination of central Kerala, and they succeeded in stymying his efforts by allying with Kochi. The Portuguese and the Dutch after them generally followed a policy of propping up the smaller chieftaincies at the expense of the larger powers. Venad, which had been a notable power in the Middle Ages, had disintegrated into a number of statelets ruled by different branches of the ruling house by the early 18th century before Martanda Varma , with an almost powerless king controlled by feudatories and the temple yogam.

All this aside, larger and smaller polities alike (however coherent they were) did patronise literature. This was mostly in Sanskrit, but there are certainly examples of Malayalam poetry by court poets and at the behest of rulers. I can give some examples if you like, but one that comes to mind immediately is പൂരപ്രബന്ധം (Going by memory―I think that's what it's called) by Venmani Achan Namboodirippad. There were also a lit of works written under the patronage of Kodungallur Kovilakam in the 19th century.

There wasn't much prose, no, but I'm not sure if that means Malayalam wasn't used in administration. Are any of the Sanskrit prose works that have come down to us concerned with administration or records? I don't actually now, I'd have to check. What was used in land grants and such? Obviously we have examples from the later Chera period in what you could call west coast Tamil, which was gradually becoming Malayalam, but I don't know what was the case in later periods.

Sanskrit was used for things like "prashasti" inscriptions to commemorate a king's victory in battle, but well, it was the natural medium for such bombastic material. That doesn't mean it was the language of day to day administration. On the have plenty of Malayalam terms relating to the law and the technicalities of succession, so it must have been used in some capacity.

I've just bought a book called "പഴശ്ശിരേഖകളിലെ വ്യവഹാരഭാഷ". I haven't started reading it yet, but it's about the Malayalam used by Kerala Varma Pazhassi Raja in his correspondence, including administrative and diplomatic correspondence. So a late 18th century chieftain used Malayalam for such purposes, for what it's worth.

Certainly Sanskrit literacy would be expected, but I would be somewhat cautious about taking the episode you cite as evidence of the historical reality of how people actually conversed at court. I haven't read it―is it about saying some specific Sanskrit formula or partaking in a ceremony, or just generally conversing? The former might well have been expected, but I'm not sure about the latter. Literary convention would have played a role in such things, and there was a convention in Sanskrit theatre where high-status male characters would speak in Sanskrit while women and low-status males spoke Prakrit.

User avatar
dEhiN
Forum Administrator
Posts: 5612
Joined: 2013-08-18, 2:51
Real Name: David
Gender: male
Location: Toronto
Country: CA Canada (Canada)
Contact:

Re: A Dravidian Lingua Franca

Postby dEhiN » 2018-02-02, 6:35

vijayjohn wrote:
dEhiN wrote:From the little I know in Tamil, I'm pretty sure you could include the 'my' part but it's probably option. Like I could probably say எனது வயறு நிறைந்தது.

Huh, okay.

I'll confirm that with my SL friend and let you know.

vijayjohn wrote:(I'm sure you've told me about this before, but எனது? Really? :lol: I thought it was என்...I'm so confused as to what the difference between the two is).

So as far as I can tell, it's a dialect thing between SL and India. If I'm not mistaken, the centhamizh for 'my' is என்னுடைய, which is the 1st person singular oblique pronoun என் + the genitive suffix -உடைய.

Indian Tamils shorten that in kodunthamizh to என், which always used to confuse me since that's really the oblique pronoun. (But then again, they do that with the other genitive pronouns, using the oblique form as a kodunthamizh equivalent of the centhamizh genitive pronoun).

From what I know, Sri Lankan Tamils shorten it in kodunthamizh to எனது. (I'm actually not entirely sure if a shortening process took place, or if enathu came from some other source). I don't know if the same is applied to all other genitive pronouns, mostly because I've never heard all of them spoken. But I feel like I have heard உனது, அவனது, அவளது. So the plural genitive pronouns might be different, or I've just never heard/noticed them.

rmanoj wrote:It's வயிறு in Tamil, by the way, not வயறு.

சரி, நன்றி.
My TAC for 2018.

(en-CA) (ta-lk) (fr) (pt-BR) (es) (ko) (sv) (ro)

rmanoj
Posts: 73
Joined: 2011-05-02, 8:23
Gender: male
Country: IN India (भारत / India)

Re: A Dravidian Lingua Franca

Postby rmanoj » 2018-02-02, 6:51

dEhiN wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:
dEhiN wrote:From the little I know in Tamil, I'm pretty sure you could include the 'my' part but it's probably option. Like I could probably say எனது வயறு நிறைந்தது.

Huh, okay.

I'll confirm that with my SL friend and let you know.

vijayjohn wrote:(I'm sure you've told me about this before, but எனது? Really? :lol: I thought it was என்...I'm so confused as to what the difference between the two is).

So as far as I can tell, it's a dialect thing between SL and India. If I'm not mistaken, the centhamizh for 'my' is என்னுடைய, which is the 1st person singular oblique pronoun என் + the genitive suffix -உடைய.

Indian Tamils shorten that in kodunthamizh to என், which always used to confuse me since that's really the oblique pronoun. (But then again, they do that with the other genitive pronouns, using the oblique form as a kodunthamizh equivalent of the centhamizh genitive pronoun).

From what I know, Sri Lankan Tamils shorten it in kodunthamizh to எனது. (I'm actually not entirely sure if a shortening process took place, or if enathu came from some other source). I don't know if the same is applied to all other genitive pronouns, mostly because I've never heard all of them spoken. But I feel like I have heard உனது, அவனது, அவளது. So the plural genitive pronouns might be different, or I've just never heard/noticed them.

rmanoj wrote:It's வயிறு in Tamil, by the way, not வயறு.

சரி, நன்றி.


You're welcome.
It seems the forum has swallowed up one of my posts. That's what I get for trying to do this from my mobile.
Anyway, I'm pretty sure all three forms have been used for the genitive in literary Tamil since early times: the bare oblique stem என், along with எனது and என்னுடைய. None of them are contractions of any of the others.
In spoken Indian Tamil, I think என்னுடைய becomes என்னோடெ, while எனது is mostly confined to the literary language.
People used to think that Malayalam എൻറെ came from எனது, but of course, it's actually from என்னுடைய -> என்னுடை -> *ஏன்னுடெ (still used in poetic Malayalam as എന്നുടെ ) -> *என்றெ (എൻറെ).

vijayjohn
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 21168
Joined: 2013-01-10, 8:49
Real Name: Vijay John
Gender: male
Location: Austin
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: A Dravidian Lingua Franca

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-02-02, 18:03

rmanoj wrote:Sorry, I've had a busy week at work so haven't replied until now.

No problem, and thank you so much for the detailed reply! I think what you said makes sense. In the story I was thinking of, a member of the royal family in the neighboring kingdom died, and the queen of Kottayam tells the prince to ask, "കിം മയാ കർത്തവ്യം?" (in other words, what should I do for you?), which may well be a formulaic expression like you said. He goes there but says മയ instead of മയാ, to which the king in that kingdom sarcastically replies, "ദീർഘോച്ചാരണം കർത്തവ്യം" (i.e. he needs to make one of his vowels longer). This surely wasn't a formulaic expression, but both of these expressions are simple enough that you don't even need to know much Sanskrit to understand them without a translation.
dEhiN wrote:
It's வயிறு in Tamil, by the way, not வயறு.

சரி, நன்றி.

வயறு is Malayalam. :D
rmanoj wrote:Anyway, I'm pretty sure all three forms have been used for the genitive in literary Tamil since early times: the bare oblique stem என், along with எனது and என்னுடைய. None of them are contractions of any of the others.
In spoken Indian Tamil, I think என்னுடைய becomes என்னோடெ, while எனது is mostly confined to the literary language.

I've never understood what the difference is between என் and என்னுடைய, except that என்னுடைய can be used predicatively.

rmanoj
Posts: 73
Joined: 2011-05-02, 8:23
Gender: male
Country: IN India (भारत / India)

Re: A Dravidian Lingua Franca

Postby rmanoj » 2018-02-05, 5:55

vijayjohn wrote:I've never understood what the difference is between என் and என்னுடைய, except that என்னுடைய can be used predicatively.

Predicatively? I don't see how. Do you mean என்னுடையது (i.e. എൻറേത്)?
I don't know that there is any difference in normal usage (should there be?) but one odd property of -உடைய is that the meaning can be reversed, as it were. A couple of examples from V.S. Rajam's A Reference Grammar of Classical Tamil Poetry (an excellent book for this kind of thing--I've had many a eureka moment when I inferred the origin of some Malayalam construction or other from it).
முத்து உடை மருப்பு
pearls உடை tusks
'tusks that have pearls' (as opposed to 'pearls' tusks')
சீர் உடைய இழை
beauty உடைய ornaments
'ornaments that have beauty' (as opposed to 'beauty's ornaments')
So here you see உடை(ய) used in the sense of உள்ள. I guess one Malayalam term for God, ഉടയവൻ (உடையவன்) might come from this sort of usage, meaning 'he who has [implied 'everything']'.
But Rajam also gives an example of it being used in the regular sense:
நின்னுடை வாழ்க்கை
'your life'

User avatar
dEhiN
Forum Administrator
Posts: 5612
Joined: 2013-08-18, 2:51
Real Name: David
Gender: male
Location: Toronto
Country: CA Canada (Canada)
Contact:

Re: A Dravidian Lingua Franca

Postby dEhiN » 2018-02-05, 6:31

rmanoj wrote:So here you see உடை(ய) used in the sense of உள்ள.

உள்ள அர்த்தம் என்ன?

rmanoj wrote:நின்னுடை வாழ்க்கை

Is நின் a Literary Tamil version of உங்கள்?
My TAC for 2018.

(en-CA) (ta-lk) (fr) (pt-BR) (es) (ko) (sv) (ro)

vijayjohn
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 21168
Joined: 2013-01-10, 8:49
Real Name: Vijay John
Gender: male
Location: Austin
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: A Dravidian Lingua Franca

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-02-05, 6:40

rmanoj wrote:Predicatively? I don't see how. Do you mean என்னுடையது (i.e. എൻറേത്)?

Yes, and thanks for all your help again! It's such a relief for me to finally have someone to ask these kinds of questions to. :)
I don't know that there is any difference in normal usage (should there be?)

I thought maybe there was, but I guess they're just interchangeable? It never occurred to me before that they might be.
dEhiN wrote:
rmanoj wrote:So here you see உடை(ய) used in the sense of உள்ள.

உள்ள அர்த்தம் என்ன?

Something like 'having'.
rmanoj wrote:நின்னுடை வாழ்க்கை

Is நின் a Literary Tamil version of உங்கள்?

That looks like it's probably an older Tamil equivalent of உன். We use நின் in that sense in literary Malayalam.

User avatar
dEhiN
Forum Administrator
Posts: 5612
Joined: 2013-08-18, 2:51
Real Name: David
Gender: male
Location: Toronto
Country: CA Canada (Canada)
Contact:

Re: A Dravidian Lingua Franca

Postby dEhiN » 2018-02-05, 6:57

vijayjohn wrote:It's such a relief for me to finally have someone to ask these kinds of questions to. :)

Actually, for me too! It makes me want to start writing in my Tamil thread. I can maybe finally practice what I'm learning as well as ask grammar questions.

vijayjohn wrote:
dEhiN wrote:உள்ள அர்த்தம் என்ன?

Something like 'having'.

Ok; I remember learning about உண்டு and உள்ளன, that basically the first one means 'has' and is an equivalent to இருக்கிறது, while the second one means 'have' and is an equivalent to இருக்கின்றன. I even have an Anki card with the sentence எனது பெற்றோரின் வீட்டில் ஒரு மாடம் உண்டு. But I never got a chance to ask which verb root these two come from, and if this is a Literary Tamil thing? Because as far as I'm aware, the only way to say 'have' is to use இரு but generally with a dative subject.

vijayjohn wrote:That looks like it's probably an older Tamil equivalent of உன். We use நின் in that sense in literary Malayalam.

சரி, நன்றி.
My TAC for 2018.

(en-CA) (ta-lk) (fr) (pt-BR) (es) (ko) (sv) (ro)

rmanoj
Posts: 73
Joined: 2011-05-02, 8:23
Gender: male
Country: IN India (भारत / India)

Re: A Dravidian Lingua Franca

Postby rmanoj » 2018-02-05, 7:43

Thanks, guys, but please don't overestimate my competence in Tamil. I am a (British) MalayaIi who has studied it a little haphazardly. I may be able to tell you about some obscure point of classical grammar, but may not be able to give you an answer on some perfectly mundane matter.
உள்ள is used for [person/object]-who/which-[has]-x. So பணமுள்ளவன் is 'he who has money'. I was saying that உடை(ய) can be used like this as well as the standard possessive 'his' 'its' etc, thus reversing the relationship of possession with respect to the word order.
நின் is the original 2nd person singular oblique stem (which can be used as a genitive, just like 1st person என். It has been replaced by உன், which IIRC comes from an older நுன் that was used alongside நின் in classical times (but I'll double-check that later).
By the way, typing in Malayalam using the Google thing while on my computer is really a pain because the transliteration is unsystematic--there is no one-to-one correspondence between what I type on the physical keyboard and what pops up on the screen. So I have to find the letter or sequence I want from the drop-down list, and sometimes that won't have all the possible alternatives. Tamil doesn't seem quite as random (on my phone I have Google's actual Malayalam and Tamil touchscreen keyboards so it's ok, although the Malayalam one seems to lack a visarga). How do you guys deal with this?

vijayjohn
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 21168
Joined: 2013-01-10, 8:49
Real Name: Vijay John
Gender: male
Location: Austin
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: A Dravidian Lingua Franca

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-02-05, 7:49

I just use Google Input Tools. :lol: But that's only easy for me because I'm on a desktop computer...

rmanoj
Posts: 73
Joined: 2011-05-02, 8:23
Gender: male
Country: IN India (भारत / India)

Re: A Dravidian Lingua Franca

Postby rmanoj » 2018-02-05, 7:57

vijayjohn wrote:I just use Google Input Tools. :lol: But that's only easy for me because I'm on a desktop computer...

I think that's what I use as well, but I'm having problems with it. I've found other keyboards for things like Devanagari where there is a one-to-one correspondence, so you don't end up with a long vowel when you wanted a short one (for example) etc. And sometimes with the Malayalam one, the version with the short vowel won't even show up on the drop-down list. So I end up having to stop typing, let the earlier part of the word be generated, then try typing the problematic syllable on its own and try to get it right.

vijayjohn
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 21168
Joined: 2013-01-10, 8:49
Real Name: Vijay John
Gender: male
Location: Austin
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: A Dravidian Lingua Franca

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-02-05, 7:59

Oh yeah, I have problems like that, too. :? But not all that often, from what I remember...

User avatar
dEhiN
Forum Administrator
Posts: 5612
Joined: 2013-08-18, 2:51
Real Name: David
Gender: male
Location: Toronto
Country: CA Canada (Canada)
Contact:

Re: A Dravidian Lingua Franca

Postby dEhiN » 2018-02-05, 19:44

On my laptop, because I have Windows 10, I use the Windows language packs which include keyboards. Well, I mainly use US-international, so that covers pretty much most of the languages that use the Latin script. But I do specifically switch to the Windows Tamil keyboard when typing in Tamil. It was a bit of a pain to get used to, because I had to learn a new layout, but I'm pretty much used to it by now.

On my phone I use a multilingual keyboard app called Multiling O Keyboard. I've never used the Malayalam layout, but the Tamil one is good, and essentially the exact same as the Windows Tamil keyboard layout. The app even has dictionaries (that you install separately) for most, if not all, of the languages they have layouts for. And it's all free. The thing I like about it is that I can quickly switch between different layouts per language (i.e., QWERTY vs AZERTY) and different languages. I think a polyglot friend of mine who tried both this keyboard and the Google one said that this one is a bit faster.
My TAC for 2018.

(en-CA) (ta-lk) (fr) (pt-BR) (es) (ko) (sv) (ro)

User avatar
OldBoring
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 5701
Joined: 2012-12-08, 7:19
Real Name: Francesco
Gender: male
Location: Milan
Country: IT Italy (Italia)
Contact:

Re: A Dravidian Lingua Franca

Postby OldBoring » 2018-02-05, 21:13

Why don't you guys do what every Indian does on the Internet? Type Indian languages in Latin script...

vijayjohn
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 21168
Joined: 2013-01-10, 8:49
Real Name: Vijay John
Gender: male
Location: Austin
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: A Dravidian Lingua Franca

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-02-05, 21:27

Because the closest thing we have to pinyin in Indian languages is ugly (and possibly misleading, too...).

User avatar
Yasna
Posts: 1891
Joined: 2011-09-12, 1:17
Gender: male
Location: Boston
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: A Dravidian Lingua Franca

Postby Yasna » 2018-02-05, 21:28

I for one very much enjoy seeing the attractive Dravidian scripts used here.
Ein Buch muß die Axt sein für das gefrorene Meer in uns. - Kafka


Return to “South Asian Languages”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest