Dravidian Languages

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Re: Dravidian Languages

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-02-10, 3:15

dEhiN wrote:I want to learn how Tamil does ordinate and subordinate clauses.

"Ordinate"? You mean coordinate?
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Re: Dravidian Languages

Postby dEhiN » 2018-02-10, 5:45

vijayjohn wrote:
dEhiN wrote:I want to learn how Tamil does ordinate and subordinate clauses.

"Ordinate"? You mean coordinate?

Yes, thank you! Though aren't there ordinate clauses as well? Or is the opposite of a subordinate clause a superordinate clause?
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Re: Dravidian Languages

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-02-11, 6:58

I've never heard of either "ordinate clause" or "superordinate clause." I think the term you're looking for may be "main clause."

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Re: Dravidian Languages

Postby dEhiN » 2018-02-12, 17:20

vijayjohn wrote:I've never heard of either "ordinate clause" or "superordinate clause." I think the term you're looking for may be "main clause."

Oh ok, thanks. I guess by definition of subordinate, I figured the main clause must also be (able to be) called "ordinate". :D
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Re: Dravidian Languages

Postby vijayjohn » 2022-01-28, 5:29

In addition to the episodes of Njanga Ninga I've been posting lately, I also wrote a few posts on another forum about Dravidian languages in general that are not covered by that show at all. I think maybe I'll copy them over to this thread. Here's one of them (not the first one I posted tbh. I decided to modify this post a little bit):

On p. 730 of The World's Major Languages, Sanford B. Steever writes, "Tamil dialects show diglossic
variation in which a 'high' formal variety (centamiẓ) contrasts with a 'low' informal variety (koṭuntamiẓ). The difference between these two corresponds only roughly to the difference between written and spoken Tamil. The high variety is used in most writing, radio and television broadcasts, political oratory and public lectures. While the low variety is used in virtually all face-to-face communication, it also appears in the cinema, some political oratory and some modern fiction. In Akilan's novel ciNēkiti 'The Girl-Friend' (1951) both dialogue and narration are in the high variety; in Janaikiraman's ammā vantāḷ 'Here Comes Mother' (1966) the former is in low, the latter in high Tamil; and in Jeyakantan's cila nēraṅkaḷil cila maNitarkaḷ 'Certain Men at Certain Moments' (1970) both are in low Tamil."

The koṭuntamiẓ Steever speaks of is not merely one variety of Tamil but rather all of the spoken varieties, whereas as far as I'm aware at least, there is only one variety of centamiẓ. I have had a native speaker of Tamil tell me that these spoken varieties of Tamil are not mutually intelligible, IIRC Steever claims they form a dialect continuum. I have also heard that Telugu also has a lot of diglossic variation, apparently to the point that this is difficult even for many (most??) native speakers to navigate, whereas Steever claims that even illiterate Tamils have to know how to navigate their own diglossic variation. Kannada may well have such variation as well and is in any case surrounded by a wide variety of languages. All three of these languages also have a lot of dialect variation, which presumably interacts with diglossia. While Malayalam also has diglossia, it doesn't seem to have it to such a high degree.

Steever continues, "In high Tamil the animate and inanimate locative case markers are -iṭam and -il, respectively; but in low Tamil they are -kiṭṭa and -le. The polite imperative of vara 'come' is vāruṅkaḷ in high Tamil, but vāṅka or vāṅkō in low. The word for 'much' or 'very' is mika in high Tamil, but rompa in low (both come from the infinitives of verbs that mean 'exceed' or 'fill'). Palatalisation of -nt- and -tt- following i, ī or ai is common in low Tamil, but not in high, e. g. low aṭiccu 'beating' corresponds to high aṭittu 'id.'." In some ways, Malayalam is closer to centamiẓ than most koṭuntamiẓ varieties. We use -il for the locative (we don't have an animacy distinction in locative case) and have a word [ˈmikʲa] meaning 'most'. However, a phrase such as 'the room in the house' would be [ˈʋiːʈile muˈri], where [ˈʋiːʈil] means 'in the house'; the -[e] suffix is required before another noun in such a phrase. Rompa apparently comes from the verb 'to grow', cognate to the Malayalam equivalent of this verb, [ʋəˈɭɛɾuga] (compare [ʋəɭɛɾumˈboːɭ] 'when [unspecified subject] grow(s)', colloquially [ʋəˈɭɛɾumbəm]). We would also say [əˈɖit͡ʃu] but to mean 'beat, hit' in past tense.

Steever also writes (just before all this on the same page), "The social dialects of Tamil particularly accentuate the distinction between brahmin and non-brahmin castes. Among brahmins the word for 'house' is ām, among non-brahmins vīṭu; among brahmins the polite imperative of vara 'come' is vāṅkō, among non-brahmins vāṅka. For 'drinking water' Vaisnavite brahmins say tīrttam, Saivite brahmins jalam and non-brahmins taṇṇīr." Vaishnavite Brahmins are devotees of Vishnu, whereas Shaivite Brahmins are devotees of Shiva, hence their names. From what I understand, there was no religion called "Hinduism" before the British chose to lump almost all the religions of the subcontinent under this label, and Vaishnavites/Vaishnavas discriminated against and persecuted Shaivites/Shaivas in much the same way as anyone else persecuted others in the name of religion.

In Malayalam, we have the word [ˈʋiːɖɯ] for 'house', and our prestigious Sanskrit loanword for 'house' is [grɯˈhəm]; compare e.g. [gʱəɾ] in Hindi. However, we also have both the Sanskrit loanwords [ˈt̪iːrt̪ʰəm] and [d͡ʒɛˈləm] for 'water' as well as [ˈn̪iːɾɯ] for most kinds of liquid, yet our normal word for 'water' is [ˈʋeɭɭəm], meaning 'flood' in Tamil. Our words for 'flood' in Malayalam are [ʋeɭɭəˈpokəm], literally 'rising of water', and [peɾuˈʋeɭɭəm], literally 'big water'. Taṇṇīr is etymologically 'cold water' and doesn't exist as a term with this meaning in Malayalam, though there is the word [t̪əɳˈɳiːmət̪ɛn] 'watermelon', a compound word (of 'water' + 'melon') just like in English.

Varieties of Tamil spoken in Sri Lanka also are known to preserve features lost in Indian Tamil; this may help explain why people often perceive Sri Lankan Tamil as being more similar or closer to Malayalam than Indian Tamil is. dEhiN's told me before that Sri Lankans say vāruṅkō for '(please) come!'. This is halfway between Centhamil (or centamiẓ, as Steever Romanizes it) and the form Steever claims Indian Tamil Brahmins use. Steever writes on p. 732, "Initial /c/ is often pronounced as s in the speech of many educated speakers." This strikes me as an understatement; to me, it seems as if even uneducated speakers of Tamil usually do this. However, in Sri Lanka, this happens less often than it seems to in India. He then writes, "Nasalation converts a sequence of vowel and word-final nasal into a nasalized vowel, e.g. /maram/ 'tree' becomes [marã] [...]"; this apparently does not happen in Sri Lanka, either.

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Re: Dravidian Languages

Postby vijayjohn » 2022-01-30, 4:32

This is a note about traders' jargon that I think is relevant for one of the terms episode 4 of Njanga Ninga, and about the Malayalam spoken by Dalits. p. 19-20 of the 1997 book ദളിത് ഭാഷ [d̪əˈɭid̪ɯ ˈbʱaːʃa] 'Dalit language' by Kaviyoor Murali include the following note:

"കച്ചവടക്കാർക്ക് അവരുടേതായ ചില കോഡുകളും ഉണ്ട്...ഇതെല്ലാം ഇന്നുമുണ്ട്."
[kət͡ʃəʋəɖəˈkaːrk əʋəɾɯɖeːˈd̪aːja t͡ʃɛˈla ˈkoːɖɯgəɭum ˈɔɳɖɯ]...[jid̪elˈlaːm in̪ˈn̪umɔɳɖɯ].
'Businessmen have some code words of their own...All of these are still there today.'

Footnote #1 of p. 20 lists the following code words:

ചാ [t͡ʃaː] - 'one', normally ഒന്ന് [ˈon̪n̪ɯ] in Malayalam. I think this was just translated with the numeral "1"
തങ്കാൻ [t̪əŋˈgaːn] - 'two', normally രണ്ട് [ˈɾəɳɖɯ]
വട്ടം [ʋəˈʈəm] - ചക്രം [ˈt͡ʃəkrəm], literally 'wheel' but here referring to a now-obsolete kind of coin. വട്ടം in Malayalam normally just means 'circle'
വെളള [ˈʋeɭɭa] - 'rupee', I think listed in the book as just "Rs." Normally രൂപാ [ɾuːˈbaː] in Malayalam. വെള്ളി [ˈʋeɭɭi] literally means 'silver'; rupee and രൂപാ also come from the Sanskrit word for 'silver'. വെളള more often means 'white', especially as an adjective in poetry and as a noun when referring to eggs (egg white)
ചാവെളള [ˈt͡ʃaːʋeɭɭa] - 'one rupee' (I think defined as just "Rs. 1" in the book), normally ഒരു രൂപാ [oˈɾu ɾuːˈbaː]
ചാവട്ടം [ˈt͡ʃaːʋəʈəm] - 'one chakram', i.e. ഒരു ചക്രം [oˈɾu ˈt͡ʃəkrəm]
തങ്കാൻവെളള [t̪əŋˈgaːnʋeɭɭa] - 'two rupees' ("Rs. 2"), i.e. രണ്ട് രൂപ [ˈɾəɳɖɯ ˈɾuːba]
തങ്കാൻ വട്ടം [t̪əŋˈgaːn ʋəˈʈəm] - 'two chakrams', i.e. രണ്ട് ചക്രം [ˈɾəɳɖɯ ˈt͡ʃəkrəm]
ചാത്തങ്കാൻ [t͡ʃaːt̪əŋˈgaːn] - 'half of a rupee', i.e. അര രൂപാ [əˈɾa ɾuːˈbaː]
കൊളച്ചി [kɔˈɭət͡ʃi] - 'three rupees' ("Rs. 3"), i.e. മൂന്ന് രൂപ [ˈmuːn̪n̪ɯ ˈɾuːba]
മുക്കൊളച്ചി [muˈkɔɭət͡ʃi] - 'three-fourths of a rupee' ("3/4 രൂപാ"), i.e. മുക്കാൽ രൂപാ [muˈkaːl ɾuːˈbaː]. Note that കാൽ
[kaːl] means 'quarter', and മുക്കാൽ [muˈkaːl] means 'three quarters', yet കൊളച്ചി means 'three rupees', and മുക്കൊളച്ചി means not *'nine rupees' but rather 'three quarters of a rupee'!
ത്വാവ് [ˈt̪ʋaːʋɯ] - 'four rupees' ("Rs. 4"), i.e. നാല്‌ രൂപ [ˈn̪aːlɯ ˈɾuːba]
പുലുപ്പുലു [puˈlupulu] - 'one hundred rupees' ("Rs. 100"), i.e. നൂറ് രൂപ [ˈn̪uːrɯ ˈɾuːba]
ഗജം [gəˈd͡ʒəm] - 'estimate', i.e. ഉദ്ദേശം [ud̪ˈd̪eːɕəm]. ഗജം is the Sanskrit (loan)word for 'elephant', and I was very confused until my dad explained this just now because I thought ഉദ്ദേശം meant 'intention'. However, he says he has heard ഗജം being used this way to mean 'estimate'. I asked him, "What does that have to do with elephants?" He said, "I dunno, maybe they used to use elephants to measure something!" which seems like enough of a plausible explanation for me
ഒയത്തുക [oˈjət̪uga] - 'to achieve a net profit', i.e. സൂത്രത്തിൽ കാര്യലാഭമുണ്ടാക്കുക [ˈsuːt̪rət̪il kaːɾjəˈlaːbʱəmɔɳɖaːkuga]
ചാകുക [ˈt͡ʃaːguga] - 'to settle for the customer's proposed price', i.e. പറഞ്ഞ വില സമ്മതിക്കുക [pəˈrɛɲa ʋɛˈla ˈsəmməd̪ikʲuga]. ചാകുക is a verb normally used to describe an animal (or, pejoratively, a person) dying

Dalits speaking Malayalam often use more Dravidianized forms, non-standard forms, and Tamil words than higher-caste/higher-class people. On p. 31, the book lists the following words in Dalit Malayalam:

ചെവരക്കാരൻ [t͡ʃɛʋəɾəˈkaːɾɛn] - 'barber', presumably from the Standard Malayalam equivalent [ʈʃuˈɾəgɛn], a loanword from Sanskrit. The book includes the Tamil equivalent written in Malayalam script as നാവികൻ. I presume this is நாவிகன் in Tamil script and probably pronounced something like ?[ˈn̪aːʋihə̃]. If നാവികൻ were a word in Malayalam, it would instead be pronounced [ˈn̪aːʋigɛn]
പച്ചി-പക്കി (പറവ) [pət͡ʃiˈpəki] ([pəˈrəʋa]) - 'bird'. The Standard Malayalam equivalent is പക്ഷി (പറവ) [pəˈʈʃi] ([pəˈrəʋa]). [pəˈʈʃi] is another Sanskrit word, but [pəˈrəʋa] is a native Dravidian word. Tamil uses பறவை /paraʋai/
തിമ്കം [t̪imɯˈgəm] - 'lion', Dravidianization of സിംഹം [ˈsimhəm] (compare Singh and Sinhalese/Sinhala)
കിട്ട്ണൻ [kɪˈʈɯɳɛn] - 'Krishna', Dravidianization of കൃഷ്ണൻ [ˈkrɯʃɳɛn]

On p. 23, two phrases are listed:

ചെറുമനേ [t͡ʃɛrɯmɛˈneː] - 'hey, kid!' translated as എടാ കുട്ടി! [eˈɖaː kuˈʈi]! but also literally as what I presume is its cognate, ചെറിയവനേ [t͡ʃɛrijəʋɛˈneː], literally 'oh small boy/male one!'
മണക്കാട് പോകായ്കിൽ നന്റ് [məɳəˈkaːɖɯ poːˈgaːjgil ˈn̪əndɯ] - 'It's best not to go to Manakkad' (മണക്കാട് [məɳəˈkaːɖɯ] literally means 'fragrant forest'). The Standard Malayalam equivalent is given as മണക്കാട് പോകാതിരിക്കുന്നതാണ് നല്ലത് [məɳəˈkaːɖɯ poːˈgaːd̪iɾikʲun̪n̪əd̪aːɳɯ ˈn̪əlləd̪ɯ], literally 'it is (the act of) not going to Manakkad that is good'. For നന്റ് [ˈn̪əndɯ] apparently meaning 'good', compare Tamil நன்றி [ˈn̪andri] 'thanks'

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Re: Dravidian Languages

Postby vijayjohn » 2022-01-30, 4:33

Omniglot has a blog where Simon Ager (who runs Omniglot) posts an audio clip in a different language every week. I was going through a bunch of these in the blog archives and came across one in a Dravidian language called Badaga. Badaga is a Dravidian language spoken in the Nilgiri Hills in northwestern Tamil Nadu, near the border with Kerala and Karnataka. It's closely related to Kannada. Apparently, the Badaga people migrated to the Nilgiri Hills from Karnataka relatively recently, in the 16th century. However, an Indo-Aryan phonologist I've known online probably since I was a teenager confused it for Malayalam, which surprised me because it really didn't sound like Malayalam to me and I could clearly identify a Kannada word in it.

I keep getting Badaga confused with another language that's also spoken in the Nilgiri Hills, as well as in nearby parts of Tamil Nadu, Kerala, and Karnataka, called Betta Kurumba. Apparently, Betta Kurumba is more closely related to Tamil, and its speakers, the Betta Kurumba people, are essentially indigenous to the Nilgiri Hills (though I doubt they have the longest history there out of the local popuulation). I can't really say much about Badaga, but there are two short but annotated songs in it here. By contrast, anyone who has access to the MEGA folder also has access to an entire dissertation on Betta Kurumba.

Some of the words listed on p. 235 of this dissertation are very similar to both Malayalam and Tamil; in particular, the word [ˈkaːpi] 'coffee' is (not so surprisingly) identical in all three of Malayalam, Tamil, and Betta Kurumba. The English loanwords listed as fulla 'fully' and flaskə 'flask' sound more or less like Tamil, though in Tamil at least, the L's would be retroflex. They would also be retroflex in Malayalam, except that -[a] is not a valid suffix for this word in Malayalam. [ˈkaːki] 'crow' is also very similar to its Malayalam equivalent [ˈkaːka]; in Tamil, I suppose this is more like [ˈkaːkej]. [ˈpjaːti] 'type of cockroach' is also pretty close to our [ˈpaːta].

Some other words bear less obvious similarities. [pəpˈpiʃiʃo] for 'it ripened' doesn't look anything like a word in either Malayalam and Tamil but is probably related in some way to the Malayalam word [pəˈɻut̪u] 'ripened'. It's not clear to me whether [ˈard̪ə] 'half' might be a native word related to the Malayalam equivalent [əˈɾa] or whether it's borrowed from Kannada or something, which in turn presumably borrowed the Sanskrit equivalent [ˈərd̪ʱa]. [paːˈmaːʃi] is translated as 'moss', but I wonder whether it might also mean 'weed' and/or be related to the Malayalam word [ˈpaːjəl] 'weed(s)'. [ˈkurbən] sounds close enough to the term Kurumba.

[ˈerd͡ʒənu] 'he threw and(?)' sounds a bit like the Malayalam [eˈriɲiʈɯ] 'having thrown', and [ˈergənu] 'he slept and(?)' sounds a bit like Malayalam [oˈrəŋijiʈɯ] 'having slept'. [ˈkət̪t̪i] 'donkey' bears an even less obvious resemblance to the Malayalam equivalent [kəˈɻud̪a] (and happens to sound more like the Malayalam word for 'knife'). Potti 'I carried' reminds me of the word [ˈpoki] 'carried on the head' in Malayalam. [ˈbəʈʈi] 'path' sounds a little bit like its Malayalam equivalent [ʋəˈɻi]. [ˈkoʃʃi] is translated as 'heron' but reminds me more of the Malayalam word for 'chicken', [ˈkoːɻi]. [ˈpəʈʈə] 'hen' vaguely resembles the Malayalam equivalent [peˈɖa] or, more accurately, [peɖəˈkoːɻi].

[ˈd̪iːɾi] 'distance' is surely a loanword related to the Malayalam equivalent [ˈd̪uːɾəm]; both are presumably loanwords that ultimately go back to Proto-Indo-European. [ˈbaːt̪i] 'duck' may be a loanword from Kannada, although Malayalam does have a similar term as well, and this is a wanderwort anyway (though apparently ultimately of Indo-European origin); the usual term for 'duck' in Malayalam is [t̪aːˈraːʋɯ]. [ˈbəkkiʃo] 'she bent something' sounds a little bit like the Sanskrit loanword [ˈʋəkra] 'crooked' in Malayalam. I'm guessing [gəˈlaːʈi] 'fight' is related to Malayalam [kəˈlaːbəm] 'quarrel'. I'm having trouble telling what exactly the origin of abbi 'mother' and [ˈkəd̪d̪i] 'field' might be; [ˈkəd̪d̪i] might involve deretroflexion. [ˈpəggi] 'fight'(!) barely sounds like the Malayalam term [ˈpajtɯ] (as in Kalaripayattu). [ˈəd̚d͡ʒi] 'grandmother' is clearly from Kannada. I'm not sure what to make of [ˈt̪iːɾi] 'cloth' or [ˈbəʈʈə] 'mountain'. In Malayalam, we would say [t̪uˈɳi] and [məˈla] respectively.


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