Pre missionary havaiian language vs UH "Hawaiian"

Moderators: aaakknu, atalarikt

Boki
Posts: 20
Joined: 2007-06-13, 19:35
Real Name: Boki
Gender: female
Location: none

Pre missionary havaiian language vs UH "Hawaiian" "OLELO"

Postby Boki » 2008-04-22, 0:46

http://faroutliers.files.wordpress.com/ ... iwords.jpg

http://ling.lll.hawaii.edu/research/Wor ... iccolo.pdf

The struggle for the revitalization of the Hawaiian language, although valuable and necessary, has
so far either neglected or insufficiently taken into account one important issue: the existence of various
dialects of Hawaiian. The aim of the present study is to characterize the vowels of two of these
dialects, Ni‘ihauan and the University of Hawai‘i (UH), on the basis of phonetic evidence. The first
dialect is a natural continuation of the variety spoken on the island of Ni‘ihau, in that the Hawaiian
language was never banned there, as opposed to the rest of the islands, where it was. The latter dialect
evolved from that spoken on the Big Island. Although both dialects have native and non-native
speakers, most of the speakers of UH Hawaiian are non non-native speakers whose first language is
English. The present study compares the pronunciation of Hawaiian vowels by a native speaker of the
Ni‘ihauan dialect with that of a fluent (but non-native) speaker of UH Hawaiian whose first language is
English. Phonetic charts of the vowels of both varieties of the language are compared to show the
possible influence of English on the UH form

User avatar
Ariki
Posts: 2410
Joined: 2004-10-01, 14:53
Real Name: Tāne
Gender: male
Country: NZ New Zealand (New Zealand / Aotearoa)

Postby Ariki » 2008-04-30, 11:30

Ok I've taken a look at the first link.

It is evidence for the existence of "t" (something we already know). However which dialect did that come from? And are you able to guarantee that that dialect that word list comes from did not change with the spreading influence of the Hawaiian dialects during the 19th century?

Going through the list I recognise the following -

E poo = He upo'o
Haieea = He i'a
Haire = Haere
Erooi = e rua'i
Oohe = uhi
Tanata = Tanata
Matte = Mate
Tahouna = Tahuna
Motoo = Motu
Hairanee = Rani
Eatooa = Atua
He oho = He oho
Matta = Mata
Waheine = Wahine
Tooanna = Tua'ana
Too = Tō
Matou = Mtou (note, mātou in the history of any Polynesian language has never ever meant I it means "we not you")
Booa = Pua'a
Pahoo = Pahū
Ehoora = 'e hura!
Ooroo = 'uru
Ai = Ae
Harre = Hare
Homy = Homai

Some I didn't recognise.

Now, with regards to writing them in modern Hawaiian r = l and t = k. I can read Hawaiian like that and I can change k to t and l to r in my mind if I want to and read it out loud like that.

As for the second article the author acknowledges that it is a very limited study since it only involved two speakers of Hawaiian. To make a firm assertion she would need more and she knows that her work can only be taken as a guide for others who may want to study the differences in vowel production between different speakers of Hawaiian.
Linguicide IS genocide. :)

He ingoa ōpaki a Riki; he ingoa ōkawa a Ariki.

Riki is an informal name; Ariki is a formal name.

User avatar
Aleco
Posts: 8596
Joined: 2006-04-10, 19:05
Real Name: Alecsander
Gender: male
Location: Onsøy
Country: NO Norway (Norge)
Contact:

Postby Aleco » 2008-07-07, 7:13

Does Hawaiian have a standard spelling?
Native (no) Fluent (en-us)
Understands (sv) Understands (dk) Studied (ja)
[flag=Mom's side of the family]fo[/flag] Study now and then (et) Curious about (cs) Playing with (ga)

User avatar
Ariki
Posts: 2410
Joined: 2004-10-01, 14:53
Real Name: Tāne
Gender: male
Country: NZ New Zealand (New Zealand / Aotearoa)

Postby Ariki » 2008-07-07, 10:46

Does Hawaiian have a standard spelling?


Yes. Please refer to Mamo's posts if you'd like to see some examples of standard spelling in Hawaiian language.

A little under 200 years ago a standard alphabet was agreed upon but it is filled with lies and linguistic genocide.


What lies and what linguicide do you speak of?

Also, I've never heard of Tahishian. I've heard of Tahitian though.
Linguicide IS genocide. :)

He ingoa ōpaki a Riki; he ingoa ōkawa a Ariki.

Riki is an informal name; Ariki is a formal name.

'Oia'i'o Hawaiian
Posts: 7
Joined: 2008-07-18, 11:00
Real Name: 'Oia'i'o Hawaiian
Gender: female
Location: Atooi

Postby 'Oia'i'o Hawaiian » 2008-07-18, 11:47

"The two varieties of Hawaiian have followed different paths. Ni‘ihauan Hawaiian has
not been significantly influenced by American English in phonetic terms. UH Hawaiian,
instead, has been, as illustrated by the results of the present study."

User avatar
Ariki
Posts: 2410
Joined: 2004-10-01, 14:53
Real Name: Tāne
Gender: male
Country: NZ New Zealand (New Zealand / Aotearoa)

Postby Ariki » 2008-07-20, 22:38

"The two varieties of Hawaiian have followed different paths. Ni‘ihauan Hawaiian has
not been significantly influenced by American English in phonetic terms. UH Hawaiian,
instead, has been, as illustrated by the results of the present study."


Notice that in that statement that the linguist is referring to the phonology.

However that does not mean words are being spelt wrong. As you'll notice, no Polynesian language spells "eye"mata as matta.
Linguicide IS genocide. :)

He ingoa ōpaki a Riki; he ingoa ōkawa a Ariki.

Riki is an informal name; Ariki is a formal name.

'Oia'i'o Hawaiian
Posts: 7
Joined: 2008-07-18, 11:00
Real Name: 'Oia'i'o Hawaiian
Gender: female
Location: Atooi

Re: Pre missionary havaiian language vs UH "Hawaiian"

Postby 'Oia'i'o Hawaiian » 2008-07-25, 7:54

We have documented evidence of the Havaiian language before it was corrupted. The language of Oneehow is exactly as it is shown here.

Image

User avatar
Ariki
Posts: 2410
Joined: 2004-10-01, 14:53
Real Name: Tāne
Gender: male
Country: NZ New Zealand (New Zealand / Aotearoa)

Re: Pre missionary havaiian language vs UH "Hawaiian"

Postby Ariki » 2008-07-29, 22:32

"We have documented evidence of the Havaiian language before it was corrupted. The language of Oneehow is exactly as it is shown here."

See this is what I take exception to.

Who made those recordings? Native speakers of Hawaiian, L2 speakers of Hawaiian or people who couldn't speak Hawaiian at all?
Linguicide IS genocide. :)

He ingoa ōpaki a Riki; he ingoa ōkawa a Ariki.

Riki is an informal name; Ariki is a formal name.

User avatar
Nohola
Posts: 79
Joined: 2006-08-22, 20:49
Real Name: Kalani
Gender: male
Location: Kuaihelani

Re: Pre missionary havaiian language vs UH "Hawaiian"

Postby Nohola » 2008-09-16, 19:41

'Oia'i'o Hawaiian wrote:We have documented evidence of the Havaiian language before it was corrupted. The language of Oneehow is exactly as it is shown here.


That's nothing more than a phonetic spelling based on the English language!
He manao oiwi!

E hoi e pee i ke opu weuweu me he moho la. E ao o hai ka pua o ka mauu ia oe

johnH

Re: Pre missionary havaiian language vs UH "Hawaiian"

Postby johnH » 2011-02-18, 20:56

Their are recordings that predate the ban for sure. Further more their are recordings fromt he hawai'ian kingdom.
IT most certainly was spocken threw out the time of the hawai'ian kingdom I'd check that it out.
their however is a grammatical differnece between old hawai'ian and modern hawai'ian.
I've read about them facsinating, technically the old hawai'ian ones are still considered grammatically correct but phewer people know the old hawai'ian :doggy: .

User avatar
Ariki
Posts: 2410
Joined: 2004-10-01, 14:53
Real Name: Tāne
Gender: male
Country: NZ New Zealand (New Zealand / Aotearoa)

Re: Pre missionary havaiian language vs UH "Hawaiian"

Postby Ariki » 2011-03-04, 1:43

Their are recordings that predate the ban for sure. Further more their are recordings fromt he hawai'ian kingdom.
IT most certainly was spocken threw out the time of the hawai'ian kingdom I'd check that it out.
their however is a grammatical differnece between old hawai'ian and modern hawai'ian.
I've read about them facsinating, technically the old hawai'ian ones are still considered grammatically correct but phewer people know the old hawai'ian :doggy: .


Hi johnH,

Are these recordings available online?

Whilst grammar does change, I don't believe Hawaiian grammar has changed to the point where pre-European Hawaiian is essentially a different language grammatically.
Linguicide IS genocide. :)

He ingoa ōpaki a Riki; he ingoa ōkawa a Ariki.

Riki is an informal name; Ariki is a formal name.

User avatar
ILuvEire
Posts: 10398
Joined: 2007-12-08, 17:41
Gender: male
Location: Austin
Country: US United States (United States)
Contact:

Re: Pre missionary havaiian language vs UH "Hawaiian"

Postby ILuvEire » 2011-03-05, 6:03

A‘ole ku‘u mana‘o. ‘Ā, aia loa nā puke mai kēlā manawa (aia he biography o Kamehameha I - Hele mai ka huli o ke kenekulia, a aia nā nūpepā, ‘oia ho‘i) a hiki iā kākou ke maopopo. ‘Oiai, nā mea laha nui loa i ka ‘ōlelo, like me ka haole, akā like me nā ‘ōlelo like me ka ‘ōlelo ‘Ailiki i ka moku ‘Ailiki (a ka ‘ōlelo Māori i ke Aokealoa, ‘oia ho‘i).

Definitely not, I'd say. I mean, we've got texts from that time too (there's a biography of Kamehameha I I've seen from the turn of the century that I know of, and there were newspapers and stuff I'm sure) and they're all perfectly understandable. Admittedly, many times, widespread Hawai‘ian publications are more "Englishy," but it's the same for languages like Irish in Ireland (and Māori in NZ I'm sure).
[flag]de[/flag] [flag]da[/flag] [flag]fr-qc[/flag] [flag]haw[/flag] [flag]he[/flag] [flag]es[/flag]
Current focus: [flag]ga[/flag] [flag]ar[/flag]
Facebook | tumblr | Twitter
“We need to make books cool again. If you go home with somebody and they don't have books, don't fuck them.” —John Waters

kahihi'o
Posts: 62
Joined: 2009-04-20, 9:57
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Pre missionary havaiian language vs UH "Hawaiian"

Postby kahihi'o » 2011-04-17, 11:43

ILuvEire wrote:A‘ole ku‘u mana‘o. ‘Ā, aia loa nā puke mai kēlā manawa (aia he biography o Kamehameha I - Hele mai ka huli o ke kenekulia, a aia nā nūpepā, ‘oia ho‘i) a hiki iā kākou ke maopopo. ‘Oiai, nā mea laha nui loa i ka ‘ōlelo, like me ka haole, akā like me nā ‘ōlelo like me ka ‘ōlelo ‘Ailiki i ka moku ‘Ailiki (a ka ‘ōlelo Māori i ke Aokealoa, ‘oia ho‘i).

Definitely not, I'd say. I mean, we've got texts from that time too (there's a biography of Kamehameha I I've seen from the turn of the century that I know of, and there were newspapers and stuff I'm sure) and they're all perfectly understandable. Admittedly, many times, widespread Hawai‘ian publications are more "Englishy," but it's the same for languages like Irish in Ireland (and Māori in NZ I'm sure).


Pololei nō kēnā, e ILuvEire. Hiki nō i nā mea 'ōlelo Hawaiʻi o kēia wā ke heluhelu i nā palapala o ke kenekulia 1800, a ma ka nūpepa ka hapa nui o ia mau palapala. ʻAʻole he ʻōlelo ʻokoʻa maoli ke ʻano o ka ʻōlelo Hawaiʻi o kēia au e aʻo ʻia nei ma ke kula, akā, i kekahi manawa, hōʻike ʻia ka manaʻo haole ma ka ʻōlelo Hawaiʻi, no ka mea, ʻo ka ʻōlelo haole ka ʻōlelo mua o ka hapa nui o mākou Hawaiʻi. He mea nui ka ʻimi mau ʻana i ke kuanaʻike Hawaiʻi ma kā mākou mau mea a pau e hana ai.

That's correct, ILuvEire. Current Hawaiian speakers can definitely read transcripts from the 1800s, most of which were circulated through newspapers. The style of Hawaiian currently being learned in schools is not a completely different kind of Hawaiian, but at times English thoughts are expressed via the Hawaiian language because English is the first language of most Hawaiians nowadays. Seeking a Hawaiian perspective is definitely a priority in everything that we do.
I nui ke aho a moe i ke kai, no ke kai kā hoʻi ua ʻāina.


Return to “Australian, Austronesian and Papuan Languages”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest