Niuean and *Avaiki

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TheManu
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Postby TheManu » 2008-04-10, 21:53

riki wrote:...in Niuean "Hawaiki" is "Hauiki" because they borrowed it directly from Māori.



Hello riki, I believe you are mistaken. Havaiki/Avaiki is a place in Niue
http://www.flickr.com/photos/59792457@N00/2157424990/
and it isn't spelled "Hauiki". It's "Havaiki" in the Tafiti dialect and "Avaiki" in the Motu dialect of Niue.
I don't know where you got the idea that they borrowed it from Maori? can you please clarify that statement? thanks

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Postby TheManu » 2008-04-10, 23:17

quoting myself..."It's "Havaiki" in the Tafiti dialect and "Avaiki" in the Motu dialect of Niue."

correction...
It's "Avaiki" today but it was written as "Havaiki" by an ethnologist. Possibly a dialectal difference or just buggered up by the ethnologist.

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Postby Ariki » 2008-04-12, 1:06

No.

I've seen it written a couple of times in Niuean as Hauaiki.

When they talk about Hawaiki as in the last point of origin for Maori it is spelt Hauaiki.
Linguicide IS genocide. :)

He ingoa ōpaki a Riki; he ingoa ōkawa a Ariki.

Riki is an informal name; Ariki is a formal name.

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Postby Ariki » 2008-04-12, 1:20

Btw Niuean has had minor influence from the Maori language of Rarotonga. So it is not hard to imagine that originally the place was called Havaiki and the name itself changed when Niueans were in contact with speakers of Cook Islands Maori. Or it could have been named Avaiki originally and has nothing to do with 'Avaiki mentioned in the Cook Islands remembering that in all Eastern Polynesian languages (save Rapa Nui) 'Avaiki is reconstructed as *Sawaiki which becomes Hawaiki in NZ Maori and Moriori, Savaiki in Tongarevan,'Avaiki in Cook Islands Maori and Mangarevan (which is a Marqusic language), Havaiki in Manihikian and Marquesan, Hawai'i in Hawaiian, Havai'i in Tahitian. All of those languages attest to the existance of a consonant in the first syllable which is reconstructed as *s.

For example the Niuean word for good is not lelei as in Tongan or Samoan (remembering that Niuean is a Tongic Western Polynesian language) but is mītaki which suspiciously looks like a borrowing from Rarotongan Maori as their word for 'good' is meitaki. It is not inconceivable that it would have been borrowed considering at the start of the 20th century Niue was placed with the Cook Islands thus facilitating contact between speakers of Cook Islands Maori and Niuean.

Thus when meitaki was borrowed it underwent sound changes in force in Niuean that raised e to i because stress would have fallen on the first i. In words directly inherited from Proto-Polynesian PPN *?ariki becomes iki in Niuean due to r becoming 0. With stress falling on i *?aiki would become *?eiki and then the vowel would rise again to i becoming *iiki and then because most three vowel words in any Polynesian language either become two or four Niuean shortened the long ii and made it i. Hence iki.
Linguicide IS genocide. :)

He ingoa ōpaki a Riki; he ingoa ōkawa a Ariki.

Riki is an informal name; Ariki is a formal name.

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Postby TheManu » 2008-04-12, 5:28

riki wrote:No.



No, "hauaiki" isn't even a word in the Niuean vocabulary. I asked my aunt who was born and raised in Niue and she said it's not Niuean. And "Avaiki" is that cave I posted a picture of in my previous post.


riki wrote:I've seen it written a couple of times in Niuean as Hauaiki.

No, you'll never see a Niuean spell Avaiki that way.

riki wrote:When they talk about Hawaiki as in the last point of origin for Maori it is spelt Hauaiki.


People on Niue wouldn't be talking about Maori origins.

I'm guessing that you are solely basing your information on a word recently created at New Zealand universities to distinguish the Niuean Avaiki from the Maori Hawaiki? and not a word in regular use of the Niuean people. If that is the case you should have made that clear in your other post.

And since you were discussing cognates for Hawaiki you should have mentioned Avaiki in Niuean.
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Postby TheManu » 2008-04-12, 5:45

riki wrote: ... all Eastern Polynesian languages (save Rapa Nui) 'Avaiki is reconstructed as *Sawaiki which becomes Hawaiki in NZ Maori and Moriori, Savaiki in Tongarevan,'Avaiki in Cook Islands Maori and Mangarevan (which is a Marqusic language), Havaiki in Manihikian and Marquesan, Hawai'i in Hawaiian, Havai'i in Tahitian.

you forgot Havaiki/Havai'i in Fakarava.

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Postby Ariki » 2008-04-12, 13:14

No, "hauaiki" isn't even a word in the Niuean vocabulary. I asked my aunt who was born and raised in Niue and she said it's not Niuean. And "Avaiki" is that cave I posted a picture of in my previous post.


I'm not really in the mood to go and find the word in the Niuean language text that I did. I just made a mental note of it because I would have expected it to have been Havaiki. Hauaiki is a word transliterated from Maori - how old that transliteration is, I don't know. I'm not a modern Niuean language specialist but my hunch would be that a (or some) speaker(s) of Niuean when trying to talk about the last point of origin of Maori, instead of using what word equivalent that existed in their lexicon they chose to transliterate. That transliteration then would have wound up in print. It could be that your aunty isn't a part of the speech community that transliterated the word.

People on Niue wouldn't be talking about Maori origins.


Now that you mention that it was probably an educational book written in the Niuean language to be taught to native speakers of Niuean as a requirement of the New Zealand curriculum where the subject of Maori and their relationship to Aotearoa is taught as a compulsory component on the curriculum.

And since you were discussing cognates for Hawaiki you should have mentioned Avaiki in Niuean.


There is no need to mention what the cognate is in Niuean because I was discussing evidence given from Eastern Polynesian languages - something that Niuean clearly isn't.

you forgot Havaiki/Havai'i in Fakarava.


If you meant Tuamotuan then yes I did neglect that but that doesn't add or change to what I said before it only gives more evidence. I don't quote Tuamotuan as much since there isn't a lot of Tuamotuan that has been written that is easily accessible in Eastern Polynesian outside of French Polynesia.

I'm guessing that you are solely basing your information on a word recently created at New Zealand universities to distinguish the Niuean Avaiki from the Maori Hawaiki?


The study of Niuean language in NZ is not done at University level. That's because it is a very unpopular language which I think is a big shame. I don't think academics would bother creating another word for it unless if they felt strongly and the community felt strongly that there was no connection with Hawaiki. Words made by academics that the community feels that there is no need for ultimately die.

Attitudes towards Niuean language by non-Niueans non-Polynesians and by some young Niuean themselves means that the language will die if there is no attitude shift. I don't think the NZ Govt is doing enough to promote Niuean as a living spoken language. There is a hell of a lot of work to be done because the language is going to die.

Out of the five major Polynesian languages of New Zealand (New Zealand Maori, Cook Islands Maori, Samoan, Tongan and Niuean) Niuean is going to die due to the frantic scramble to learn English at all costs. Cook Islands Maori will die as well as people don't see a need for it despite the fact that to function in the Cook Islands culture Cook Islands Maori is a must. New Zealand Maori is going to survive and recover. Samoan could do better but after two to three generations fluency in the language really deteriorates. Tongan is fine because speakers of the language tend to work in the same line of work and the only way to communicate in the community is to speak Tongan - English is not an option.

The NZ Government has a duty to protect all Polynesian languages under its influence (which then also includes Tokelauan) through promoting education policies that encourage -

1)Receiving an education in the L1/heritage language of the student
2)Encouraging multi-lingualism - for Polynesian students that means a study of other Polynesian languages to complement their L1/L2 language.
3)Encouraging employers to allow their workplaces to be multi-lingual - employees should not be warned for speaking a language other than English
4)Making Maori compulsory to learn as a L1/L2 language from pre-school to university.
5)Adequate funding to restore Moriori.

I think if the NZ Govt does the above I think we can easily turn around the current language situation for Polynesian languages spoken outside of Chile, French Polynesia, Hawai'i and Melanesia. If we protect these and promote them then the others will follow.
Linguicide IS genocide. :)

He ingoa ōpaki a Riki; he ingoa ōkawa a Ariki.

Riki is an informal name; Ariki is a formal name.

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Postby TheManu » 2008-04-12, 18:31

riki wrote:
No, "hauaiki" isn't even a word in the Niuean vocabulary. I asked my aunt who was born and raised in Niue and she said it's not Niuean. And "Avaiki" is that cave I posted a picture of in my previous post.


... <b>my hunch</b> would be that a (or some) speaker(s) of Niuean when trying to talk about the last point of origin of Maori, instead of using what word equivalent that existed in their lexicon they chose to transliterate.


I see...

There is no need to mention what the cognate is in Niuean because I was discussing evidence given from Eastern Polynesian languages - something that Niuean clearly isn't.

You were the one you brought Niuean up on page 1. That's where you should have mentioned that Niuean has a cognate of Hawaiki in Avaiki. But obviously you were unaware of that cognate.

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Postby Ariki » 2008-04-13, 10:14

You were the one you brought Niuean up on page 1. That's where you should have mentioned that Niuean has a cognate of Hawaiki in Avaiki. But obviously you were unaware of that cognate.


If you read my initial post about the transliteration it was in response to an assertion made by Dr. Taumoefolau about a possible reconstruction for Hawaiki. I only mentioned Niuean because her proposed reconstruction closely resembled the word borrowed into Niuean.

Avaiki is not cognate. I just checked my linguistic sources. The highest level of reconstruction available for Hawaiki is at Nuclear Polynesian level. At current there is no attested form of *Havaiki in either Niuean or Tongan.
Linguicide IS genocide. :)

He ingoa ōpaki a Riki; he ingoa ōkawa a Ariki.

Riki is an informal name; Ariki is a formal name.

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Postby TheManu » 2008-04-14, 3:24

riki wrote:If you read my initial post...

And if you read your previous post you would hopefully understand my response.

riki wrote:
Avaiki is not cognate. I just checked my linguistic sources. The highest level of reconstruction available for Hawaiki is at Nuclear Polynesian level. At current there is no attested form of *Havaiki in either Niuean or Tongan.


Wow, I sure am interested in those "linguistic sources" you speak of.

Department of General & Applied Linguistics Professor Ray Harlow of the University of the Waikato who was a founding member of the Maori language commission would disagree with you. In his book "Maori: A linguistic introduction" he mentions Avaiki of Niue as a cognate.
here is his profile
http://www.waikato.ac.nz/wfass/homepage ... rlow.shtml
another one, be sure to look at the selected publications list
http://linguistlist.org/people/personal ... sonID=6975

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Postby Ariki » 2008-04-14, 4:03

Wow, I sure am interested in those "linguistic sources" you speak of.


You are more than welcome to enrol into Linguist 306 at Auckland University and receive a copy of POLLEX.

Department of General & Applied Linguistics Professor Ray Harlow of the University of the Waikato who was a founding member of the Maori language commission would disagree with you.


The founding member part of your description is irrelevant.

Professor Ray Harlow is welcome to disagree with me. Ray Harlow after all is not the authority on Proto-Polynesian - Professor Ross Clark is.

The problem with Avaiki is that it is either a borrowing from Cook Islands Maori (thus isn't directly inherited from Proto-Tongic from Proto-Polynesian) or it is a false cognate. I suspect it is a false cognate if it isn't a borrowing because it is an irregular sound change because Proto-Tongic *s does not become 0 in Niuean. It shifts to h. While the h over time itself may shift to 0 there are no present indicators to show why *Savaiki would be affected and not *hingoa.
Linguicide IS genocide. :)

He ingoa ōpaki a Riki; he ingoa ōkawa a Ariki.

Riki is an informal name; Ariki is a formal name.

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Postby TheManu » 2008-04-14, 6:17

Professor Ray Harlow, an accredited linguist says it's a cognate. I'll take his word over any of your "hunches or what you suspect ".

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Postby Mamo » 2008-04-14, 6:37

This topic deserves its own thread.

Anyway, I can see Riki's point about how Avaiki may not be a cognate of Sawaiki, since PPN S normally becomes H in that language. If Ross Clark disagrees with Ray Harlow, and you believe that the word is a cognate because Ray Harlow is a noteworthy linguist and believes so, being that they're both noteworthy linguists, the argument could go either way.

In any event, you are part of a new trend at Unilang, where one or more members register for the purpose of arguing with Riki. You can see for yourself by heading to the Moderator forum.

It's nice to see a native Niuean with an aunt who was born and raised in Niue. Have fun in your discussions. ;)

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Postby Ariki » 2008-04-14, 7:31

Professor Ray Harlow, an accredited linguist says it's a cognate. I'll take his word over any of your "hunches or what you suspect ".


You are free to do so. I am just stating my case regarding Hauaiki and Avaiki. I choose to follow Ross Clark since he specialises in reconstructing proto-Polynesian words while Ray Harlow just specialises in modern Maori. No doubt that Ray Harlow is a bright spark but his specialisation is in a different area.

As I said, I suspect it is a borrowing if it isn't a false cognate. The reason I say this is because I'm not conversant on Niuean oral traditions or Niuean language. But I am certainly conversant in talking about Proto-Polynesian of which Niuean is just one of the daughter languages.

Thankyou Mamo for splitting this topic.
Linguicide IS genocide. :)

He ingoa ōpaki a Riki; he ingoa ōkawa a Ariki.

Riki is an informal name; Ariki is a formal name.

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Postby TheManu » 2008-04-14, 8:00

Mamo wrote:
It's nice to see a native Niuean with an aunt who was born and raised in Niue. Have fun in your discussions. ;)

Nope, I'm not Niuean. My relation to my Niuean aunt is through marriage.

Can you give me your opinion on the other thread about O'ahu?
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Postby TheManu » 2008-04-14, 8:10

Unfortunately riki, you haven't quoted any of Ross Clark's work that says Avaiki is not a cognate of Hawaiki.

And for your information, it was recorded as "Havaiki" in 1902 by the ethnologist S. Percy Smith in his publication "Niuē-fekai (or Savage) Island and its People".

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Postby Ariki » 2008-04-14, 8:19

Niuē-fekai


I'm pretty sure that is a perjorative Tongan term since fekai means savage. That literally means Savage Niue.

Unfortunately riki, you haven't quoted any of Ross Clark's work that says Avaiki is not a cognate of Hawaiki.


POLLEX is edited by Ross Clark. If its not in there that is pretty much as good as saying that he thinks that Avaiki is not cognate.

BTW I wanted to ask do you speak Niuean?

S. Percy Smith


Oh that tool. Very proliferate at writing. Nothing more and nothing less.
Linguicide IS genocide. :)

He ingoa ōpaki a Riki; he ingoa ōkawa a Ariki.

Riki is an informal name; Ariki is a formal name.

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Postby TheManu » 2008-04-14, 8:27

riki wrote:
Niuē-fekai


I'm pretty sure that is a perjorative Tongan term since fekai means savage. That literally means Savage Niue.


it's pejorative with no r. ;)

Depends on how its used. To my understanding it means wild or savage. I've heard it used in reference to "cannibals" of the old as well.

riki wrote:BTW I wanted to ask do you speak Niuean?

Nope, I'm not Niuean but I understand a few words from Niuean friends and family.

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Postby Ariki » 2008-04-14, 8:37

it's pejorative with no r.


Capital I for It's.

Nope, I'm not Niuean.


Right. So which Polynesian ethnicity do you suscribe to?
Linguicide IS genocide. :)

He ingoa ōpaki a Riki; he ingoa ōkawa a Ariki.

Riki is an informal name; Ariki is a formal name.

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Postby TheManu » 2008-04-30, 18:03

riki wrote:
Unfortunately riki, you haven't quoted any of Ross Clark's work that says Avaiki is not a cognate of Hawaiki.


POLLEX is edited by Ross Clark. If its not in there that is pretty much as good as saying that he thinks that Avaiki is not cognate.



I just read about this [/quote]"Pollex: Comparative Polynesian lexicon (computer. data base). Auckland: University of Auckland, Department of Anthropology. "[/quote]

My understanding is that its an ongoing project that is often edited. I'm sure the linguist Professor Ray Harlow has access to those files as well.

Do you have the Pollex files? and if so when was your last update? I would appreciate it if you could send me a copy so I can check for cognates.


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