Auhea outou E KA POE HAWAII 1839

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Auhea outou E KA POE HAWAII 1839

Postby Boki » 2007-06-23, 1:47

No ta mea, ua hoopaapaa mamua ihonei to Farani me to Havaii no ta malama ole i te Kuitahi, ua hele mai maanei ta mea i tatauia ta inoa malalo, ta Ademirala de Tromelin, me ta manaolana no e hooponopono ia mea, me ta oluolu a me te aloha; nolaila ua noi atu oia e halavai pu me te’Lii nui a me tona poe tutatutamalu, i mea e hoatataia’i malaila me ta oluolu na tumuolelo o na aoao elua. Ua hoole mai na Kuhina o te’Lii, ta poe i hooleia mamua no ta latou hana paevaeva ana a me te tumuole, e na Kanitele o na aina nui o Farani, o Amerika Huipuia, a me Beritania, i ta la 13 o Dec. 1848, imua o te’Lii no. Nolaila, o ta mea nona ta inoa i tatauia malalo, hai atu no oia ia latou i tona manao hope; hoole hou mai no ua poe Kuhina nei. No ia mea, ua laveia na mea kaua o teia ava e na mea itaita o Farani. E mau no nae ta Hae Havaii i teia manava a mahope atu no. Aole manao ta mea nona ka inoa i tatauia malalo e lave i ta aina, aole hoi e noho totua; e haalele tote atu no te aeia mai na pono a pau ana i noi atu ai. Paa nae tona manao e malama i na pono o na Haole a pau o tela pule o teia pule, o tela aina o teia aina. Ma na mea e pili ana i to Farani, o te Kuitahi i aeia i ta matahiiti [sic] o ta Haku 1839, e Cap. Laplace, oia te tumuhna [sic] me teia Aupuni, a e lite me te ano o ua Kuitahi la, elima hapa haneri no ta utu Dute no na vaivai kalepa a pau mai Farani mai, e hooleiia ma uta nei.

Legoarant de TROMELIN

Rear Admiral.

PROCLAMATION ADDRESSED TO PEOPLE HAWAIIEN

A misunderstanding being raised between France and Hawaii, result of the not-observance of a treaty, the undersigned, Admiral de Tromelin, arrived here, full with goodwill and friendship, in the hope to level these difficulties. For this purpose, it requested an audience of the King, accompanied by his private advisers, in order to examine in all equity the reasons advanced by the two sides. The Ministers for the King refused with this conference, these ministers whose arbitrary and anticonstitutional acts had already forced the consuls of large nation-France, the United States of America and England-with complaining with the King himself, on December 13, 1848. Following this refusal, the undersigned regarded as his duty to send an ultimatum. He was also rejected by these same advisers. Consequently, the French forces took possession of the military installations of the port. The flag hawaiien continues nevertheless to be deployed, and will continue to be it, the undersigned not having any intention to occupy or annex this country. It will set out again at once that one will have reached his right requests. Its firm intention is also to protect the interests from all abroad, with some religion or some nationality which they belong. With regard to the French interests, the convention signed by the captain Laplace, the year of the Saver 1839, will form the base of our relations with this country. According to the clauses of this treaty, the tax taken on the French goods, some nature which they are, will be five percent, in place of the current tax.

Legoarant of TROMELIN.

Rear Admiral.

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Postby Mamo » 2007-06-23, 9:25

Auhea outou E KA POE HAWAII 1839
No ta mea, ua hoopaapaa mamua ihonei to Farani me to Havaii no ta malama ole i te Kuitahi, ua hele mai maanei ta mea i tatauia ta inoa malalo, ta Ademirala de Tromelin, me ta manaolana no e hooponopono ia mea, me ta oluolu a me te aloha; nolaila ua noi atu oia e halavai pu me te’Lii nui a me tona poe tutatutamalu, i mea e hoatataia’i malaila me ta oluolu na tumuolelo o na aoao elua. Ua hoole mai na Kuhina o te’Lii, ta poe i hooleia mamua no ta latou hana paevaeva ana a me te tumuole, e na Kanitele o na aina nui o Farani, o Amerika Huipuia, a me Beritania, i ta la 13 o Dec. 1848, imua o te’Lii no. Nolaila, o ta mea nona ta inoa i tatauia malalo, hai atu no oia ia latou i tona manao hope; hoole hou mai no ua poe Kuhina nei. No ia mea, ua laveia na mea kaua o teia ava e na mea itaita o Farani. E mau no nae ta Hae Havaii i teia manava a mahope atu no. Aole manao ta mea nona ka inoa i tatauia malalo e lave i ta aina, aole hoi e noho totua; e haalele tote atu no te aeia mai na pono a pau ana i noi atu ai. Paa nae tona manao e malama i na pono o na Haole a pau o tela pule o teia pule, o tela aina o teia aina. Ma na mea e pili ana i to Farani, o te Kuitahi i aeia i ta matahiiti [sic] o ta Haku 1839, e Cap. Laplace, oia te tumuhna [sic] me teia Aupuni, a e lite me te ano o ua Kuitahi la, elima hapa haneri no ta utu Dute no na vaivai kalepa a pau mai Farani mai, e hooleiia ma uta nei.

Legoarant de TROMELIN

Rear Admiral.


In the Hawaiian text you provided, not counting the foreign words which were Hawaiianized, two letters appear which are not part of the standard Hawaiian alphabet, but whose sounds do occur readily in the language: T and V. The author of this text, who was a foreigner to Hawai‘i, most likely wrote in the style of Hawaiian which he learned to speak, favoring T’s and V’s. While this is reflective of the kind of Hawaiian he learned to speak, it is not reflective of the only kind of Hawaiian spoken throughout the islands.

Two things are seen, though. Although he leans toward T’s, K’s do occur. Ka appears twice, ku‘itahi appears three times, kuhina appears twice, kaua appears once, haku appears once, and kālepa appears once. This is only one example of how T and K in Hawaiian are readily interchangeable, rather than an example of how missionaries’ standardization of the alphabet displaced the use of T. Also, in every instance where the letter V occurs, the common rules for choosing a W or V sound conclude that each of those words would tend toward the V pronunciation anyway, even if it were spelled with W. In Hawaiian, the K represents both the K and T sound, and the W represents both the W and the V sound and a soft V intermediate between the two.

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Auhea outou E KA POE HAWAII 1839

Postby Boki » 2008-01-05, 5:31

The missionaries did vote to remove the letter T from the Hawaiian language for their standardized version. They also voted for a W instead of V, an L instead of in R and a P instead of a B. There is a whole generation of Hawaiians out there who know nothing about how the language sounded before Europeans contacted Hawaii and it is a disgrace and a shame. Every "Hawaiian" dictionary in print today says that the letter T is a foreign letter. This is a lie and I don't know why it keeps being perpetuated. Hawaiians should stop learning and teaching and speaking the standardized version and instead speak teach and learn the Niihau dialect which is the closest thing to what our ancestors spoke. we should also make it mandatory for children with Hawaiian blood to learn the Niihau dialect in K-12 grades.

http://www.hulapreservation.org/Kupuna_ ... ID=7&CID=6

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Postby Ariki » 2008-01-05, 5:50

The missionaries did vote to remove the letter T from the Hawaiian language for their standardized version. They also voted for a W instead of V, an L instead of in R and a P instead of a B. There is a whole generation of Hawaiians out there who know nothing about how the language sounded before Europeans contacted Hawaii and it is a disgrace and a shame. Every "Hawaiian" dictionary in print today says that the letter T is a foreign letter. This is a lie and I don't know why it keeps being perpetuated. Hawaiians should stop learning and teaching and speaking the standardized version and instead speak teach and learn the Niihau dialect which is the closest thing to what our ancestors spoke. we should also make it mandatory for children with Hawaiian blood to learn the Niihau dialect in K-12 grades.


Ko wai koe? No whea koe? No te aha koe e whakaaro ana me whakaako anake te reo o Ni'ihau ki nga tamariki hei reo Hawaiki mena ehara tena reo i te reo tuturu ake o Hawaiki? E takahi ana koe i te mana o nga tangata Maori ehara i a Nikihau.

Despite what you think, I don't think the indigenous people of Hawai'i should be taught the Ni'ihauan dialect because its not their dialect. Neither is "standardized" but its what survives which is better than nothing.

While standard Hawaiian my not have a continuous unbroken link to the past it still preserves features of non-Ni'ihau dialects which do belong to people who are not from Ni'ihau.
Linguicide IS genocide. :)

He ingoa ōpaki a Riki; he ingoa ōkawa a Ariki.

Riki is an informal name; Ariki is a formal name.

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Postby Boki » 2008-01-05, 6:22

riki wrote:
The missionaries did vote to remove the letter T from the Hawaiian language for their standardized version. They also voted for a W instead of V, an L instead of in R and a P instead of a B. There is a whole generation of Hawaiians out there who know nothing about how the language sounded before Europeans contacted Hawaii and it is a disgrace and a shame. Every "Hawaiian" dictionary in print today says that the letter T is a foreign letter. This is a lie and I don't know why it keeps being perpetuated. Hawaiians should stop learning and teaching and speaking the standardized version and instead speak teach and learn the Niihau dialect which is the closest thing to what our ancestors spoke. we should also make it mandatory for children with Hawaiian blood to learn the Niihau dialect in K-12 grades.


Ko wai koe? No whea koe? No te aha koe e whakaaro ana me whakaako anake te reo o Ni'ihau ki nga tamariki hei reo Hawaiki mena ehara tena reo i te reo tuturu ake o Hawaiki? E takahi ana koe i te mana o nga tangata Maori ehara i a Nikihau.

Despite what you think, I don't think the indigenous people of Hawai'i should be taught the Ni'ihauan dialect because its not their dialect. Neither is "standardized" but its what survives which is better than nothing.

While standard Hawaiian my not have a continuous unbroken link to the past it still preserves features of non-Ni'ihau dialects which do belong to people who are not from Ni'ihau.


regardless every island in Havaii used R and T and their dialect. that is the whole point I'm trying to make in this is turning into a debate about Ni'ihau. I can give you an example of the letters T and R used on every Hawaiian Island. Riho-Riho Where was he from? Not from Niihau. Here is a small list of Hawaiian words from all islands containing the letter T.

Ta'aao -
Taura - Kaula Island
Tahitiri
Taiana
Taimaro
Tahi-o-Paia/Rahaina - Hawaiian princess
Taimaro
Tairi - Tamehameha's war-god.
Taitiri
Taa ua
Tau-ai - Kauai
Ta'aau
Taaua - Name of a Hawaiian chief.
Tapuli - Queen of Ta-Umu-Arii
Taraiopu
Ta-Meha-Maru -
Taneoneo
Towaihae - Kowaihae
Ta-Umu-Arii (The Gentle Chief) - Kaumualii's real name
Ta-Hau-Ra-We - Kahoolawe
Teave - The eternal spirit, the creator
Tenui - Hawaiian Name
Toteta -
TUTUI - candlenut
Ua Taua - It is war!
Wahaura (Heaiau) - Red Mouth
Waiarua - Waialua
Waititi - Waikiki
Wauti - Paper mulberry

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Ariki
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Postby Ariki » 2008-01-05, 6:29

Then, instead of calling the other dialect fake (standard Hawaiian is a dialect), why not just use those spellings regardless of what other people have to say?

Instead of trying to force others to speak the way you do, why don't you just keep on speaking the way you do and influence others around you? Surely that would be more effective than going around the internet protesting.
Linguicide IS genocide. :)

He ingoa ōpaki a Riki; he ingoa ōkawa a Ariki.

Riki is an informal name; Ariki is a formal name.

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Re: Auhea outou E KA POE HAWAII 1839

Postby Mamo » 2008-01-05, 13:31

Boki wrote:The missionaries did vote to remove the letter T from the Hawaiian language for their standardized version. They also voted for a W instead of V, an L instead of in R and a P instead of a B. There is a whole generation of Hawaiians out there who know nothing about how the language sounded before Europeans contacted Hawaii and it is a disgrace and a shame. Every "Hawaiian" dictionary in print today says that the letter T is a foreign letter. This is a lie and I don't know why it keeps being perpetuated. Hawaiians should stop learning and teaching and speaking the standardized version and instead speak teach and learn the Niihau dialect which is the closest thing to what our ancestors spoke. we should also make it mandatory for children with Hawaiian blood to learn the Niihau dialect in K-12 grades.

http://www.hulapreservation.org/Kupuna_ ... ID=7&CID=6


Ua kapae no ka po'e mikionali i ka T mai ka pi'apa a lakou i ho'oholo ai, aka, 'a'ole lakou i kapae aku i ka puana 'ana o ka T ma kahi o ke K. 'A'ole loa he ho'okahi wale no kani o ka leka K ma ka 'olelo Hawai'i, no ka mea, he ho'ailona ia no ke kani o ke K a me ka T kekahi. Me kela no ka L a me ka R. Aka na'e, 'a'ole pela ma ka 'olelo Pelekane, a no ka mea 'o ia ka 'olelo i maopopo ia 'oe, no laila, ma loko o kona kuana 'ike wale no e hiki ai ia 'oe ke no'ono'o. A ina no la ho'i 'a'ole e hiki nei ke maopopo ia 'oe keia mau mea ma'alahi e pili ana i ka 'olelo Hawai'i, pehea la auane'i e maopopo ai ia 'oe kona 'ano i ka wa i o kikilo? Ma o ke kalele 'ana i ka pi'apa kuikawa a na haole i kakau ai i na makahiki mua o lakou e kama'aina ana i ka Hawai'i? Ina 'oe i ho'opa'aha'awina maoli i ka 'olelo kanaka, ua heluhelu pu paha 'oe, ua kakau kahi mikionali ia "edea noee" ma kahi o " 'ilio nui" (aia ma ka 'ao'ao 31 o Hawaiian Grammar). Malia paha, he la'ana kela o ka 'olelo Hawai 'oia'i'o, a aia ka pono 'o ka kakou hahai koke 'ana i ia 'ano mana'o kina'una'u me ka 'emo 'ole :? .
Last edited by Mamo on 2008-01-06, 10:21, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Auhea outou E KA POE HAWAII 1839

Postby Nohola » 2008-01-06, 1:53

Boki wrote:The missionaries did vote to remove the letter T from the Hawaiian language for their standardized version. They also voted for a W instead of V, an L instead of in R and a P instead of a B. There is a whole generation of Hawaiians out there who know nothing about how the language sounded before Europeans contacted Hawaii and it is a disgrace and a shame. Every "Hawaiian" dictionary in print today says that the letter T is a foreign letter. This is a lie and I don't know why it keeps being perpetuated. Hawaiians should stop learning and teaching and speaking the standardized version and instead speak teach and learn the Niihau dialect which is the closest thing to what our ancestors spoke. we should also make it mandatory for children with Hawaiian blood to learn the Niihau dialect in K-12 grades.

http://www.hulapreservation.org/Kupuna_ ... ID=7&CID=6


I think you're overreacting about Hawaiians not knowing what the language sounded like pre-European contact. Not sure where you got your info. from about missionaries voting, but according to Day & Loomis' KA PA'I PALAPALA, when translating the Hawaiian language into Roman letters, the missionaries simplified it twice, once by reducing it from 26 to 17 letters and then in 1826, further reducing it to 12. Do you know why they'd have so many letters? I'm sure they made no distinction in vowel elongation, but the numerous letters were due to what foreign ears heard regarding Polynesian, or more specifically the Hawaiian language. This goes to prove that if they initially had 26 letters, there were multiple sounds spoken. Today we have the 5 vowels - a, e, i, o, u, then the consonants H,K, L, M, N, P, W and also the 'okina but for now I'm excluding that. If I were to include the R and T that you mentioned, plus the V, B, G which are seen in some old text, that comes out to 17 total. And that was used for awhile too. I have also seen D in old text, but the D was written in place of the T if I remember correctly, or maybe it was the L, while the G was used in place of the K, the B for the P, T for K, R for L as you already know. There were also other letters used in foreign words too which was included in the 26 letter alphabet.
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Postby Nohola » 2008-01-06, 1:56

riki wrote:Then, instead of calling the other dialect fake (standard Hawaiian is a dialect), why not just use those spellings regardless of what other people have to say?

Exactly! I definitely don't pronounce my "K" as an English K anyway, nor do I do the same with the L, P and the W. Same with Niihauans, I've seen them write regularly but they pronounce the words the same they've always done.


Instead of trying to force others to speak the way you do, why don't you just keep on speaking the way you do and influence others around you? Surely that would be more effective than going around the internet protesting.

I've seen others like him, but now am wondering if he wrote in to the Office of Hawaiian Affairs' paper - Ka Wai Ola and used these fake names and complained about the same thing.
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Re: Auhea outou E KA POE HAWAII 1839

Postby Atama'i Havai'ian » 2008-09-15, 7:02

Typical lies spread by fake Hawaiians. Boki was telling the truth but the rest of you are too stubborn to listen. Who's the real haoli now?

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Re: Auhea outou E KA POE HAWAII 1839

Postby Nohola » 2008-09-16, 16:12

Atama'i Havai'ian wrote:Typical lies spread by fake Hawaiians. Boki was telling the truth but the rest of you are too stubborn to listen. Who's the real haoli now?

Dude, pono no oe e ao ia e kekau ma ka olelo oiwi o ko makou mau kupuna!
He manao oiwi!

E hoi e pee i ke opu weuweu me he moho la. E ao o hai ka pua o ka mauu ia oe


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