some things to consider

[MOTH]

interest in learning our language is a good thing. however, please keep in mind something very important when learning the written olelo.

WE HAD NO WRITTEN LANGUAGE.


what you see on palapala is a very specific interpretation. learn it, but make certian you take everything you learn on paper with a grain of salt. it is the bane of kupuna, because its not true to who we are, not true to how we learn, and not true to our ways at all. to learn anything in this way, the textbook way, is very different and because of that, there is alot of discrepency. there is no "better or worse" here. its just different. like apples and oranges. the fact that we had no written language does not mean we were somehow compromised. quite to the contary. we had simply a different way to record and document, that is just as valid as the western method. hula, oli, mele, are some of these ways. this is why it is important not to take that for granted when learning the written version.

WORDS ARE ALIVE.

on paper, they are 2-d and practically lifeless, yet when spoken, they are given Ha, and can pull radical formations subject to change at any moment. this is something that has been lost in the minds and hearts of all people. to see a language as something specific and seperate from the host culture, is absolute hewa, because the language, IS THE CULTURE. and vice versa. we are what we do, what we say, and what is in our hearts. for instance, learning the language in this way without experiencing the culture, is like learning hula just for the dance. it may seem useful to you and those around you who have no clue and rely on you for their interpretation, but you will look like a bloody fool in front of those who know otherwise. and thats another thing, what you learn, you end up teaching either by choice or default. for most westerners, the major experts on Hawaiian culture are Elvis Prestley and Dorothy Lamour. this misrepresentation of our people has wreaked absolute havoc, and we try desperately to pick up the pieces of who we are in the minds of those who have been misguided by these false prophets. that is why it is so important to stay true to origin and not rely too heavily on new interpretations.

please keep these things in mind when learning language. ANY language. even the language you speak everyday. always approach something new with absolute respect. be it anything at all. a culture, a child, the computer you type on, the vehicle you operate. by being respectful, objective, and always a student, even if you are in a position of teacher, your mission on this earth, is to learn, to grow, and to experience, always in the spirit of aloha. even in this virtual realm, where it seems anonimity is a weapon, aloha should always be our focus.

[Nero]

Moth I like the way you explained this.
Are you a native speaker? If not, you are certainly well-learned in the subject!

Welcome to Unilang!

[MOTH]

hello nero! i love bowie btw

like i said, i am just like you, as we are just like each other. all students. all experiencers of this life. when i write, i not only write for others information, its really mostly a reminder for myself. im far from perfect! and this is why i think its good that we keep ourselves basically on path, so that none of us get caught in bogs per say.

right now i learn the language through intensive hula, oli, and mele. i find this to be much more pono, as well as i retain the information better this way it seems. there are so many dialects, and now there is just one specific that is being taught. i heard a good explination of this from the zulu shaman credo mutwa. he explains that he is careful when in different villages and with different tribes, because a word for him has a completely different meaning for them. like the word for mother in one part of the land is the the word for "dropping a deuce" in another. this is an extreme example of course, but it is no different here. thats why the respect factor is really an important one. it also helps when the host is patient with you of course! but thats not always the case and we need to be always mindful of what we can control, and that is ourselves.

[Ariki]

Tena koe Moth,

Its nice to see our Polynesian thoughts, values and beliefs are making a big appearance on this space! I can't thank you Hawai'ians enough for posting about Polynesian ways of doing things, because honestly, every one here thought that we Maori were weird and hyper strict. Nice to see you guys here!

As for writing, there is a lot that needs to be developed, and it is far from perfect. The current system for Maori at least, is quite adequate. However, you can't learn the language alone without being in tune with the culture. Fortunately, culture has been a big part of my upbringing with my reo.

The burden which Mamo carries, is a great one, I feel we should tautoko him as much as we can as a group. His speciality is the grammatical components of the language, and I feel, that to understand the culture, the grammar can tell us a lot about what kind of information we value e.g. ko Riki toku ingoa, the most important part of the sentence is ko Riki which announces who I am.

As for the writing of place names, fortunately for us, we know that some of the written forms are wrong and these were produced by Pakeha (non-Maori) not by us, because we spell the names correctly.

hei kona mai

[Nohola]

hello nero! i love bowie btw
like for instance, saying that there are only 13 letters in our alphabet is wrong. T's and R's are also used, in place of K's and L's. similar to that of tahiti and aotearoa. yet the textbooks leave that out. like for instance, where i live in Kailua Kona, which everyone and their dog knows it as, it is actually Tai Erua, for the 2 ocean currents in the bay. this has been corrupted for the sake of ease. Kai Elua would mean in essence the same thing in the written sense, but it has been shortened for the sake of ease into something completely different and in actuality.. totally 'effed' up! Kailua means literally 'toilet water'.

Ah yes, since this is a place where many people are concerned about learning the language, therefore this would be a good opportunity to cover important things about Polynesian languages, namely Hawaiian in this case where assigning letters to a particular sound may not be accurate.

I think what is important to know about learning Hawaiian is how the K is not a hard K sound as it is in English. The same goes for the T and the K & T were interchangeable, which explains in many old writings both letters. The missionaries and Europeans who wrote the names down were not linguists and only wrote down what they heard. The W is also a very soft V sound, not like English's V where it is hard.

Another one easily mispronounced is our P. That too has a soft sound which sounded like a B. This is evident among other Polynesian languages, they all have the same sound.

In any case, this is why there is confusion (depends on who you ask) on the amount of letters in the Hawaiian alphabet.

The missionaries had simplified the Hawaiian language into Roman letters not once but twice reducing it from 26 to 17 letters, then in 1826 to 12. Kamehameha I died in 1819, a year before the missionaries arrived and throughout his life he knew himself as Tamehameha.

Also, as for shortening 'elua to lua in Kailua, keep in mind that in Hawaiian LUA is not just what you may think it is, but it means 2. Check it out in the dictionary, #3 shows this:
3. num. Two, second, secondary, twice, deuce, double; doubly, much, a great deal. Ka lua kēia o koʻu hele ʻana mai, this is the second of my trips here. ʻO ka lua ia o nā keiki, this is the second of the children. Kaʻukaʻu lua, to delay much. Kaumaha lua, extremely sad or heavy. Konikoni lua i ka puʻuwai, throbbing, throbbing in the heart. hoʻo.lua To do twice, repeat, do over and over; to bake twice, as food in the oven, (PPN rua.)

"Lua" is the root word that is being used in 'elua, 'alua, palua, etc. You see this with other numbers too, like 'ehã as in hã, 'ahã, kuahã, kanahã, and pahã.

As far as I know, in the old maps from Europeans it was written Kairua. Ignore the K, but you'll noticed that there wasn't an extra vowel before the R. Especially in a place name, I'm not of any numbers that uses the 'e before the root word. I'm not saying that some words were not shortened as in Le'ahi and Mokapu. Just be aware that some, especially using numbers as in the example of Waikolu, they weren't shortened.

now you can see why it pays to investigate and do whatever it takes to get it right. dont be too hard on yourselves, but also dont think you know it all cause you will find you are wrong everytime lol.

A 'oia!

[Ariki]

Kia ora ano tatou,

I hope you dont mind me sharing what I have in my kumete (bowl) about the historical developments in Central Eastern Polynesian to what could be constituted as modern day Hawai'ian (that is, all the dialects of Hawai'ian).

historically, if we were to taken the 'standard' form of Hawaiian, we find -

PCE *t -> HAW k
PCE *f -> HAW h
PCE *s -> HAW h
PCE *k -> HAW '
PCE *ng -> HAW n, L
PCE *r -> HAW L

with the other letters being directly inherited from PCE. This works fine for the so called standard.

As for other dialects of Hawaiian, the situation is not so clear cut. This is because, I guess, an attempt from some speakers to try and mimic the standard as much as possible. This means dialects which have inherited t directly from PCE, and r from PCE, use t, r, k and l all at the same time.

This therefore, leads to a tricky question as to how to best represent this in writing. Should r and t be inserted in to the alphabet? Why? What for?

We have to remember writing is abstract. If we could imagine a world where there is no English language (but Hawaiian still inherited a latin script), then, the current orthography is fine. Why? Because t and k, l and r do not directly oppose each other in anyway. If a speaker is brought up to say t but spell k, then the sound of t becomes associated with k. We have to try and remove ourselves from our pakeha knowledge, which tells us that t and k are two different letters. To illustrate further -

in Maori tai and kai are two different lexical items. One means 'sea', the other 'food'. However, in Hawaiian, tai and kai mean the same 'sea' and therefore it becomes extraneous to have two letters to capture what really is the one sound with in the language.

To prove that you can use one sound to represent different sounds, in NZ Maori, the consonant 'wh' represents the 'f' sound of Waikato, the w' sound of Taranaki and Whanganui and the hw sound of Taitokerau. This is because, no matter which way you pronounce it, it will mean one, and only one thing e.g. whai = to pursue (and only pursue) despite the fact that the initial consonant is pronounced differently wherever you go.

What this means in the end, is that you cannot and must not just assume that because you see a k that it equals the same k as found in English (for example). You can use k to represent p if you wanted to in your own language. Perhaps what I have highlighted, that with writing, it is indeed only hen's scratching on the ground (as Maori tohunga once described it as).

[MOTH]

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[Nohola]

nohola, i know about the shortening of numbers. ive had olelo 101 no need to go there with me though its good you go there for the sake of others.

Kala mai, i was only trying to reiterate for everyone's sake and that a full understanding was made on the origin and the mecahnics behind the pronunciation of Polynesian language. Besides, I really have no idea what they teach in 101 anymore and especially it depends on the kumu.

i was just giving an example of how it was explained to me by kupuna who were concieved and died on these lands and didnt learn what they knew from textbooks. according to them, it was indeed 2 seperate words Tai Erua. and not the shortened Kairua. maybe thats how it was heard and thus written on those maps you speak of which i have seen. very sketchy they are, the 'sandwich isles' lol.

Yes, could be. My grandmother was raised in Kona because that is where her parents came from. Specifically from Ho'okena. My great-great-grandparents were also from there and so where their ancestors. Although I have to honestly say that the issue of the pronounciation of the name never, ever came up.

This goes back to what you said, the writing. Even in colloquial speech, many words, esp. vowels gets eaten. So is the common pronunciation of pu'a vs. pua'a, mou vs. mau, lo'a vs. loa'a, ikeika vs. ikaika, keikamahine vs. kaikamahine, etc. Kailua is no different.

I'm not saying that what that one kupuna said to you is wrong, but I know of one person (who is now a kupuna) that have been telling people the mispronounciation of the name of a waterfall - Moa'ula as Mo'o'ula. And he was born in this area too, and I assume his family comes from there. I know for a fact that he and others feel that Mo'o'ula (red lizard) is the name of the waterfall only b/c it is linked to a well known mo'o. What they don't know is the meaning of Moa'ula and how that name is used a few times throughout the Pacific. The well known Moa'ulanuiakea and let's not forget exactly what Moa'ula is used for, or should I say for whom it is used for. My point being, kupunas may know the mo'olelo better than anyone provided what was handed down to them was correct to begin with, versus their own interpretation along the way. I see this all the time with genealogies, and with good reason. There are always variables involved. With genealogy, it is hanai, but that's only one variable. So with the handing down of this type of info. on place names, could be anything as in my example, linking it to a mo'o.

i think i would trust the manao of lineal kupuna then a western interpretation of the language. then again not all kupuna are totally ma'a to everything.

True, I understand. As I said, my family came from there and I've never heard of 'Elua. One could argue too that it was 'Alua. But that was my point.

i think when it was explained to me, it was in the same context as simply being mindful, rather then a literal definition.

Yes, which is what I was trying to point out before in my initial response. Or maybe I should've said that too, or you could've said the same thing before, that we should be mindful of the true origin of the word. And what you gave, is only one example out of many. There are many like that, as I've given only 2 with Mokapu and Le'ahi. Those were the 2 I could think at the top of my head and I know there were others. They did that with names as well which I'm sure you're aware of, as the old spelling of Kalani'opu'u - Tereboo. I know with that issue, it was a matter of who corrupted who. I believe Kamakau mentions it was the Hawaii people who corrupted the word. BUt that's b/c of the other form of Kalani, or just Lani which ironically that shorter form would be more similar to the Tahitian - Ra'i. After all, he (Kalaniopuu) was named after the pendant well known among the O'ahu chiefs, the 'opu'u lei.

also.. im not a nazi when it comes to learning out of a book. anything to preserve the culture is a good thing. i do think we should TRY to keep it as authentic as possible, retainment of essence, rather then dissolving the meaning. this way, we at least have a FOUNDATION so that our culture can progress into new and uncharted territory. instead of being seen as 'dead' or 'ancient'. lol! i really cant stand that word.. its like.. "hello.. im right here! not a relic in a museum!"

Only the misinformed uses "dead" and I've had someone say that to me before. Only one person did that to me in regards to Hawaian and we argued and argued but he was no linguist.

anyway, ive said my peace on this issue and really dont feel the need to drive it into the ground. ill kindly leave you guys to it and hope that some of my manao was heard.

I personally think it's good to hear all aspects of the issue. Some people are not accostumed to that style, but oh well. I appreciate your mana'o on this and just as you have yours, i have mine, but it is only when we SHARE our mana'o do we begin to understand it more in depth. That's why kuka is important. Too bad not everyone understands this concept.

[Nohola]

Kia ora ano tatou,

I hope you dont mind me sharing what I have in my kumete (bowl) about the historical developments in Central Eastern Polynesian to what could be constituted as modern day Hawai'ian (that is, all the dialects of Hawai'ian).

historically, if we were to taken the 'standard' form of Hawaiian, we find -

PCE *t -> HAW k
PCE *f -> HAW h
PCE *s -> HAW h
PCE *k -> HAW '
PCE *ng -> HAW n, L
PCE *r -> HAW L

with the other letters being directly inherited from PCE. This works fine for the so called standard.

Mai poina...'o ka W. But yeah, other than that, this is pretty much correct and it does explain the dialectal difference pretty much.

As for other dialects of Hawaiian, the situation is not so clear cut. This is because, I guess, an attempt from some speakers to try and mimic the standard as much as possible. This means dialects which have inherited t directly from PCE, and r from PCE, use t, r, k and l all at the same time.

This therefore, leads to a tricky question as to how to best represent this in writing. Should r and t be inserted in to the alphabet? Why? What for?

Great question! I've seen ka po'e Ni'ihau, those that use the T and R use both letters. But that's b/c they use K as well. Not sure about the L, but I know they use the K and the T, and like some other specific areas, they'd use it depending on what part of the word it is. They also have no strong V sound, but rather a more W like sound.

If a speaker is brought up to say t but spell k, then the sound of t becomes associated with k. We have to try and remove ourselves from our pakeha knowledge, which tells us that t and k are two different letters. To illustrate further -

That's what I pointed out on the old orthrographical changes throughout Hawaii's time to a newspaper as people wrote in being so strict on the writing and using that as a guide as to pronunciation. I'll send you the link to those letters.

in Maori tai and kai are two different lexical items. One means 'sea', the other 'food'. However, in Hawaiian, tai and kai mean the same 'sea' and therefore it becomes extraneous to have two letters to capture what really is the one sound with in the language.

Oh, and as you mentioned in the beginning the PCE *k became our 'okina, hence food is 'ai. But if we really listen carefully to Maori and Hawaiian, the pronunciation of your K can easily be interpreted as the 'okina, at least to my own ears. That's b/c the K as I said before is not exactly the same as in English. It's less aspirated.

To prove that you can use one sound to represent different sounds, in NZ Maori, the consonant 'wh' represents the 'f' sound of Waikato, the w' sound of Taranaki and Whanganui and the hw sound of Taitokerau. This is because, no matter which way you pronounce it, it will mean one, and only one thing e.g. whai = to pursue (and only pursue) despite the fact that the initial consonant is pronounced differently wherever you go.

I was going to bring up our W/V sound vs. your Wh but I see you are touching in this. My guess is that the Wh was used b/c some used the W vs. the F sound, right?

What this means in the end, is that you cannot and must not just assume that because you see a k that it equals the same k as found in English

Exactly! No different than in Spanish you have the V & B that both represents the sound that are pretty much the same.

[Ariki]

Kia Ora,

I've read your articles (can you pm me the link to your blog? I've lost it ).

Completely enjoyable reads, and I agree with how you've described how the consonants should be pronounced. I agree completely, so can I say amen? lol

Over here in Aotearoa, I think besides r, we do allow the English values of consonants to be used, because, otherwise no one would want to learn Maori (I'm talking about my own Maori people here!) Whenever I meet nwe learners, Ive told them, that they need to be open-minded to different words, and how they can be pronounced differently. I'm quite active in telling people that the best speakers of Maori are those that sound like our cousins in the Cook Islands and Tahiti, and not so much like the proper 'English' sounding ones here Well, it always raises a few eye brows thats for sure!

As for 'w', linguists have reconstructed Maori w as PCE *w (however, you do see v for that position - so, theres plenty of room in there for debate!). The reason why its been reconstructed as w is because outside of Polynesia, w is more common than v. However its a minor point, since, only the most challenged wouldnt be able to tell that w and v are completely interchangeable from NZ Maori in to most other Polynesian languages.

As for the k in Maori, I would say it is quite plausible that you might hear more of a glottal stop sound, since the region that k is pronounced in the mouth is just above the region where the glottal stop is made. Also, that is the same region where h and ng are made as well. Hence if we look at the Tahitic languages you have -

PCE *k -> MAO k, RAR k, TAH ', PEN k, MKI k, TUA k
PCE *f -> MAO wh~h, RAR ', TAH f~h, PEN h, MKI f~h, TUA f~h
PCE (n)g-> MAO ng, RAR ng, TAH ', PEN ng, MKI ng, TUA ng
PCE *s -> MAO h, RAR ', TAH h, PEN s, MKI h, TUA h

MKI (Manihikian), TUA (Tuamotuan), PEN (Penrhyn) and MAO (Maori) are definately the most conservative in retaining consonants (because TAH and RAR have both developed glottal stops).

So, if you think that you hear an 'okina, thats fine considering where the consonants are placed. However, it can also be your language rendering mine more understandable to you (the tupuna were able to talk to each other before, right?). I can say the same vice versa where your 'okina is mentally replaced (subconciously) with my Maori k. Same with your guys l being replaced by my Maori r. If you were ask to me how does this happen? (ma te aha tenei e taea ai?) I would say ma te wairua o nga tupuna

[Nohola]

Kia Ora,
Whenever I meet nwe learners, Ive told them, that they need to be open-minded to different words, and how they can be pronounced differently.

This is what many people, especially kanaka maoli people should understand, that there were differences, depending on what island/area you were from.

I'm quite active in telling people that the best speakers of Maori are those that sound like our cousins in the Cook Islands and Tahiti, and not so much like the proper 'English' sounding ones here Well, it always raises a few eye brows thats for sure!

I've told people something similar, to basically listen to Samoan or Tongan speakers to get the exact pronunciation of the consonants which is the problem versus the vowels.

As for the k in Maori, I would say it is quite plausible that you might hear more of a glottal stop sound, since the region that k is pronounced in the mouth is just above the region where the glottal stop is made.

Yes, it is produced in the same area so it's understandable how it turned into the 'okina (from the K sound).

However, it can also be your language rendering mine more understandable to you (the tupuna were able to talk to each other before, right?). I can say the same vice versa where your 'okina is mentally replaced (subconciously) with my Maori k. Same with your guys l being replaced by my Maori r.

True, like the Europeans/Americans using their own renderings as you referred to it to come up w/ the spelling that they had. I believe they refer to those as phonetic inventory where they use the closes sound to represent what they hear.

[Ariki]

Aae, engari, i too taatou tuuaahuatanga, e oorite ana aa maatou oro puare ki aa koutou oro puare.

He raa paki teenei i Aotearoa nei, aa, e hinengaro ana au e pai ana koutou katoa e noho ana i Hawai'i, aa, ka hoki wawe mai koutou ki koonei koorero ai, waananga ai hoki, moo oo taatou reo kaamehameha!

Hey guys, just messaging you from outside here in Aotearoa its a fine day and I hope you guys will come back to the forums soon so that we can chit chat and talk about our important languages!

Hei koona,

Taane