Why New Zealand Maori?

Condraz23
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Why New Zealand Maori?

Postby Condraz23 » 2006-08-16, 8:27

Why do more people opt to learn New Zealand Maori? I heard that a fluent speaker of Cook Island Maori can understand a speaker of New Zealand Maori with no problems at all. The Cook Island Maori language has the added benefit of being mutually intelligible with speakers of Tahitian, Hawaiian, and Rapan.

So why do more people choose to learn the New Zealand form of Maori?

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Postby Ariki » 2006-08-17, 0:22

Because you obviously can't know that much about Polynesian languages, my question to you, is, why shouldn't people be learning New Zealand Māori?
Linguicide IS genocide. :)

He ingoa ōpaki a Riki; he ingoa ōkawa a Ariki.

Riki is an informal name; Ariki is a formal name.

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Postby Condraz23 » 2006-08-24, 8:49

New Zealand Maori is great and I believe that it is a very nice language to learn. But why doesn't anyone attempt to learn learn Cook Island Maori?

I've noticed that there are hardly any books for learning Cook Island Maori but many books dedicated to learning New Zealand Maori. These two languages are both mutually intelligible with each other but Cook Island Maori has the added benefit of being mutually intelligible with Tahitian, Hawaiian, and Rapan.

So with New Zealand Maori, you can only communicate with speakers of one language. But with Cook Island Maori, you can communicate with speakers of many languages.

I don't know, really.

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Ariki
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Postby Ariki » 2006-08-24, 9:17

There is a lack of resources out there to teach Cook Islands Māori. Plus, Cook Islands Māori is not the official form of Māori in this country. It is New Zealand Māori.

As a speaker of NZ Māori and CI Māori, CI Māori has many indivual dialects that are not all mutually intelligible. Because all the words are recorded in one dictionary, it is very easy to find a cognate for words in Cook Islands Māori, however, that does not necessarily every single speaker of Cook Islands Māori will know that word, especially if its not their dialectal word for it.

More people in NZ should be learning NZ Māori. NZ Māori is the Māori and indigenous Polynesian language of this land. It is first and foremost above any other Polynesian language in this country. If we were in Tahiti, then it would be Tahitian that would be the most important language to learn and so on.

I've noticed that there are hardly any books for learning Cook Island Maori but many books dedicated to learning New Zealand Maori.


As I said above. NZ Māori here is more important than CI Māori. If you want to complain about that, go to the CI Māori forum.

These two languages are both mutually intelligible with each other but Cook Island Maori has the added benefit of being mutually intelligible with Tahitian, Hawaiian, and Rapan.


If they are both mutually intelligible with each other, than, why isn't NZ Māori in your own opinion mutually intelligible with say, Tahitian? There are no added benefits to learning CI Māori. But there are benefits to learning more than one Māori language.

As for your claims with the mutual intelligibility, I will say this -

Cook Islands Māori has a lexical similarity with Tahitian, Hawai'ian and NZ Māori of 80%. However, that is only the written word. With speaking, the results are actually skewed.

New Zealand Māori has 70% lexical similarity with Hawai'ian, 75% with Tahitian, and 80% with Cook Islands Māori.

Hawai'ian has 75% lexical similarity with Tahitian, 70% with New Zealand Māori and 80% with Cook Islands Māori.

However, none of the languages can be considered as being very close to Rapa Nui. Rapa Nui shares only 63% of its vocabulary with NZ Māori, CI Māori, Hawai'ian and Tahitian. And even with in that shared vocabulary, a lot of the words have changed in meaning e.g. NZ Māori, Tahitian and Hawai'ian "huri" 'to turn' is 'to pour' in Rapa Nui.

If you'd like me to prove any of the above that I've mentioned, I'd be more than happy to translate a story or two from Rapa Nui in to NZ Māori and Cook Islands Māori (and possibly Tahitian) and we can get a speaker of Hawai'ian to examine each text and declare which one they find to be the most Hawai'ian like of the lot.
Linguicide IS genocide. :)

He ingoa ōpaki a Riki; he ingoa ōkawa a Ariki.

Riki is an informal name; Ariki is a formal name.

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Postby Condraz23 » 2006-08-24, 10:00

Wow, thanks for the information! I guess I would be better off learning both languages.

I wasn't complaining, I was just curious.

Also, I was under the impression that Cook Island Maori had a 98% lexical similarity with Tahitian, Hawaiian, Rapan, and New Zealand Maori, while New Zealand Maori was a language isolate with only 0% lexical similarity. I guess my guess wasn't quite true.

Anyway, thanks for the reply!

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Postby Mamo » 2006-08-25, 2:44

Condraz23 wrote:Wow, thanks for the information! I guess I would be better off learning both languages.

I wasn't complaining, I was just curious.

Also, I was under the impression that Cook Island Maori had a 98% lexical similarity with Tahitian, Hawaiian, Rapan, and New Zealand Maori, while New Zealand Maori was a language isolate with only 0% lexical similarity. I guess my guess wasn't quite true.

Anyway, thanks for the reply!


Wait a minute, isn't a "langauge isolate" a language that has no existing relatives? See here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_isolate.

Condraz23, where did you get your information?

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Postby DelBoy » 2006-08-25, 10:12

Not only that...
how can CI Maori have 98% lexical similarity with NZ Maori, while NZ Maori has 0% lexical similarity with CI Maori?? That's some wacky maths there :lol:
The British Isles are awesome - I know, I live there - but Ireland is not a part of them. K thnx bai!

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Postby Laurent » 2006-08-27, 13:42

Kia ora/Kia ora ana/Ia ora na/

I've noticed that there are hardly any books for learning Cook Island Maori but many books dedicated to learning New Zealand Maori.


New Zealand Maori are 500 000, CI Maori only 100 000 (including those living in NZ, Australia, Tahiti...) which can partly explain why there are less published materials. There are learning methods. "Kai Korero : A cook islands maori language Coursebook" by Tai Tepuaotera Turepu Carpentier and Clive Beaumont is the easiest to find. But the best way to learn it is to go in Cook Islands

As a speaker of NZ Māori and CI Māori, CI Māori has many indivual dialects that are not all mutually intelligible. Because all the words are recorded in one dictionary, it is very easy to find a cognate for words in Cook Islands Māori, however, that does not necessarily every single speaker of Cook Islands Māori will know that word, especially if its not their dialectal word for it


It is true that Cook islands Maori has many individual dialects (this is also the case of New Zealand Maori) but only Pukapukan (Pukapuka island) is not intelligible. This is what locals told me and I tend to believe them. Some of them also say that the can understand NZ Maori and Tahitian and most Tahitians state they can understand CI Maori easily. The question of mutual intelligibility will i think depend on each person, his personal and cultural background. As a french native speaker, i can understand quite easily italian (written form, for oral understanding i need few days to accustom), although i've never learned italian. But i'm not able to speak italian or it would be a sort of indigest mixed jargon.
Moreover if an italian tells me something in french that i don't understand, i wouldn't probably tell him (by politness) nodding the head in approbation. I suppose it works a bit like that too between polynesian speakers

More people in NZ should be learning NZ Māori. NZ Māori is the Māori and indigenous Polynesian language of this land.


That is true and more people in Cook Islands should learn Cook Islands Maori. The best would be to learn both of them. And Riki you are very courageous as a New Zealand Maori to learn CI Maori

I would add that langugages are not only statistics. I don't know what are the lexical similarity between Tahitian, New Zealand Maori or Cook Islands Maori. Generally ones take these numbers on the SIL ethnologue website, whose only reference on the matter is the "language atlas of Pacific area" by Wurm and Hattori. 1981. Concerning CI Maori I suppose they took Stephen Savage dictionary which was the only one published in 1981 and far to be complete. Their methodology is also questionable. How many words did they take, which ones ????


Ka kite (i think this is the same words in both languages) nana (tahitian)

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Postby Ariki » 2006-08-27, 19:44

Hey Laurent 8)

Sorry I haven't emailed you back yet (you can guess who this is :wink: ) How are you and your family? Have you heard from Tahunga Kōrero? He's busy on his www.reko.pf site I guess. There's a French psychology student on there anyhow and he's very proactive in trying to understand Tahitian culture and language :)

Hei kōnā mai
Last edited by Ariki on 2006-08-27, 19:57, edited 1 time in total.
Linguicide IS genocide. :)

He ingoa ōpaki a Riki; he ingoa ōkawa a Ariki.

Riki is an informal name; Ariki is a formal name.

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Postby Ariki » 2006-08-27, 19:46

P.S. what I've contributed here is my attempt like what Tahunga Kōrero tries to do for his Reo Tuamotu
Linguicide IS genocide. :)

He ingoa ōpaki a Riki; he ingoa ōkawa a Ariki.

Riki is an informal name; Ariki is a formal name.

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Postby Laurent » 2006-08-27, 20:05

There must be a misunderstanding. I am not a psychology student. My name is Laurent Nevers and i don't know this so called tahunga korero. Sorry man. Probably we met in other forum ???. I always signed under my real name or first name and i never use any nickname or pseudo

Kia manuia

Laurent

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Postby Ariki » 2006-08-27, 20:09

ah yes, sorry my mistake. Did you go on to Fare Vāna'a?

Anyhow, with the native speakers of Cook Islands Māori I've met, they've all confirmed that there are only so many words that they know, and they've all said at one stage or another that each island speaks their own "language" (the whole 'language/dialect' argument springs to mind) and they admit that although mutually intelligible between each other, there is no full mutual intelligibility particularly the difficulties Southerners have in trying to understand Manihikian/Tongarevan (as these two dialects are much closer to the dialects spoken in New Zealand).
Linguicide IS genocide. :)

He ingoa ōpaki a Riki; he ingoa ōkawa a Ariki.

Riki is an informal name; Ariki is a formal name.

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Postby Laurent » 2006-08-27, 20:26

Did you go on to Fare Vāna'a?


Yes i did and i sent few messages there one year or two ago.

Anyhow, with the native speakers of Cook Islands Māori I've met, they've all confirmed that there are only so many words that they know, and they've all said at one stage or another that each island speaks their own "language"


That is probably true for them, but the question between dialect and languages is not only a linguistic/statistic question, but also a politic and identity question. As a Maori you should know that better than me. I will add that there is often a (slight) gap between CI Maori in NZ and CI maori in Cook Islands

Laurent

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Postby Ariki » 2006-08-27, 22:16

ah, I'm talking about dialects just within Cook Islands Māori (e.g. the differences between Aitutakian and Rarotongan and Mangaian are quite significant).

Nice to see that you're still around :)
Linguicide IS genocide. :)

He ingoa ōpaki a Riki; he ingoa ōkawa a Ariki.

Riki is an informal name; Ariki is a formal name.

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Postby Laurent » 2006-08-27, 23:37

I reformulate the sentence : there is often a (slight) gap between Cook islanders Maori in NZ and Cook Islanders Maori in Cook Islands.
Concerning the differences between Aitutakian, Mangaian, Rarotongan, Ngaputoru, Manihiki dialects... Sure it exists. But I will answer by two questions (we are in a NZ Maori Forum, aren't we ?) what are the differences between the north tribes, the west coast tribes... and south islands tribes dialects ? And how was constructed today standard New Zealand Maori ?

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Re: Why New Zealand Maori?

Postby silenus » 2010-12-04, 20:29

wondering if anyone can answer this question: i want to learn Tahitian, but as there are no books/recordings available, i thought i should learn a similar language that has such resources. I am trying to decide between New Zealand Maori and Hawaiian. I read that Hawaiian has 76% lexical similarity to Tahitian and 71% with Maori. So NZ Maori has 71% similarity to Hawaiian but the figure to Tahitian was not included. Any suggestions???

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Re: Why New Zealand Maori?

Postby hashi » 2010-12-11, 3:47

silenus wrote:wondering if anyone can answer this question: i want to learn Tahitian, but as there are no books/recordings available, i thought i should learn a similar language that has such resources. I am trying to decide between New Zealand Maori and Hawaiian. I read that Hawaiian has 76% lexical similarity to Tahitian and 71% with Maori. So NZ Maori has 71% similarity to Hawaiian but the figure to Tahitian was not included. Any suggestions???


Move here. There are tonnes of Tahitians at my university who would be more than happily teach you their language.
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Re: Why New Zealand Maori?

Postby epl » 2012-11-12, 12:32

Kia Ora!

in regards to the Lexical Similarities that are stated in a previous message, where do these calculations come from?

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Re: Why New Zealand Maori?

Postby Dr. House » 2013-01-18, 13:53

Condraz23 wrote:Why do more people opt to learn New Zealand Maori? I heard that a fluent speaker of Cook Island Maori can understand a speaker of New Zealand Maori with no problems at all. The Cook Island Maori language has the added benefit of being mutually intelligible with speakers of Tahitian, Hawaiian, and Rapan.

So why do more people choose to learn the New Zealand form of Maori?


And if you learn Norwegian (Bokmål), you'll be better off at understanding both Swedish and Danish than speakers of those two languages at understanding each other, but that doesn't mean no one should learn Swedish. Actually it's for the best to learn all of them if you're interested enough. :)

Simply to choose one language over the other is just about personal preference :)


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