Kaua e mataku! Don't be afraid!

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Ariki
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Kaua e mataku! Don't be afraid!

Postby Ariki » 2006-03-18, 5:59

Kia ora tātou,

kaua e mataku ki te tuku mai ra i āu pātai e pā ana ki te wetereo o te reo Māori ki tēnei papa pānui! Tukua mai ra hoki he whakaaro mō ngā akomanga reo!!

Don't be afraid to send your questions in relation to the grammar of the Māori language (of NZ) to this forum! Also send some ideas for the language lessons!

kia ora!
Linguicide IS genocide. :)

He ingoa ōpaki a Riki; he ingoa ōkawa a Ariki.

Riki is an informal name; Ariki is a formal name.

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hashi
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Re: Kaua e mataku! Don't be afraid!

Postby hashi » 2010-09-16, 2:48

My boyfriend is half or quater Māori or something, but he feels he should be learning Māori to reflect this, so me being the one who knows anything about languages am the one who has to explain stuff to him when he doesn't get it. My Māori isn't the best having only dabbled in it, however I attempted to explain to him the basic syntax last night as he was struggling with it, and so I came up with this simple (I think) flow chart to demonstrate it. I've already given it to him and he says its easier to understand this way, but I just want a second opinion as to whether it is correct or not, particularly the example sentences at the bottom. Any help would be appreciated :)
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Ariki
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Re: Kaua e mataku! Don't be afraid!

Postby Ariki » 2010-09-16, 3:53

Hi Hashi,

That was a very valiant attempt that you made. I promise to write up some corrections (later tonight after I get out of my meetings).

In general, you have the word order correct however you need to distinguish between noun phrases and verb phrases more for NZ Maori and where determiners sit (because whether a phrase is a noun phrase or a verb phrase can make a big impact to where determiners are placed etc).

Nice effort though!
Linguicide IS genocide. :)

He ingoa ōpaki a Riki; he ingoa ōkawa a Ariki.

Riki is an informal name; Ariki is a formal name.

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hashi
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Re: Kaua e mataku! Don't be afraid!

Postby hashi » 2010-09-16, 4:27

Ariki wrote:Hi Hashi,

That was a very valiant attempt that you made. I promise to write up some corrections (later tonight after I get out of my meetings).

In general, you have the word order correct however you need to distinguish between noun phrases and verb phrases more for NZ Maori and where determiners sit (because whether a phrase is a noun phrase or a verb phrase can make a big impact to where determiners are placed etc).

Nice effort though!


Hehe thanks. Well I've just been talking to a friend of mine who's bit of a Māori buff and she's just explained to me how determiners work when you want to say "this/those/that/these are a/the <noun>" and it confused the shit out of me. She said there are multiple ways you can do it such as te pukapuka hou tēnei vs tēnei te pukapuka hou (plus a few others that I just ignored out of pure confusion). She told me its a matter of finding a structure that you feel most comfortable with - is this true?

On a side note, my boyfriend has motivated me to get back into Māori and he insists I learn with him... so we shall see how far this takes me :S

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Re: Kaua e mataku! Don't be afraid!

Postby hashi » 2010-09-16, 4:29

In regards to the demonstratives in a sentence consisting of only a noun phrase, I have drawn up this sheet. Hopefully its accurate :S (I have to dumb things down for my boy as he doesn't even know the difference between a verb and noun T___T)
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Re: Kaua e mataku! Don't be afraid!

Postby Ariki » 2010-09-16, 5:06

hashi wrote:In regards to the demonstratives in a sentence consisting of only a noun phrase, I have drawn up this sheet. Hopefully its accurate :S (I have to dumb things down for my boy as he doesn't even know the difference between a verb and noun T___T)


I feel your pain. The moment when someone eyes' glazes over I know I've lost them.

I'll have a read of your analysis of the NP and get back to you.

hashi wrote:Hehe thanks. Well I've just been talking to a friend of mine who's bit of a Māori buff and she's just explained to me how determiners work when you want to say "this/those/that/these are a/the <noun>" and it confused the shit out of me. She said there are multiple ways you can do it such as te pukapuka hou tēnei vs tēnei te pukapuka hou (plus a few others that I just ignored out of pure confusion). She told me its a matter of finding a structure that you feel most comfortable with - is this true?


It is true that there are multiple ways. My advise is to follow the K.I.S.S. principle (Keep It Simple Stupid). When I get time tonight (or over the weekend - Saturday is upon us :D) I will explain one way determiners work. I generally advise people to pick one way of expressing something and getting comfortable with that before trying to learn every single other way. The way that Maori grammar works is that you may end up discovering other methods without even realising it anyway.

Does your hoa tane know any of his genealogy? A good exercise to put students through is to construct what is called a pepeha or whakapapa (ko mea te maunga etc) as that drills in definite NPs and how the predicate works (there is method to this madness heh!).
Linguicide IS genocide. :)

He ingoa ōpaki a Riki; he ingoa ōkawa a Ariki.

Riki is an informal name; Ariki is a formal name.

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Ariki
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Re: Kaua e mataku! Don't be afraid!

Postby Ariki » 2010-09-16, 5:08

hashi wrote:In regards to the demonstratives in a sentence consisting of only a noun phrase, I have drawn up this sheet. Hopefully its accurate :S (I have to dumb things down for my boy as he doesn't even know the difference between a verb and noun T___T)


You're based in Australia too now as well? I'm more than happy to chat with you and your hoa tane over messenger to help practice with written Maori too and to answer questions live as well. PM me and let me know if you think your hoa tane (and yourself if you wanted to learn even if out of pure linguistic interest) would be interested in this.
Linguicide IS genocide. :)

He ingoa ōpaki a Riki; he ingoa ōkawa a Ariki.

Riki is an informal name; Ariki is a formal name.

User avatar
hashi
Posts: 9191
Joined: 2008-11-02, 2:39
Gender: male
Country: NZ New Zealand (New Zealand / Aotearoa)
Contact:

Re: Kaua e mataku! Don't be afraid!

Postby hashi » 2010-09-16, 5:16

I feel your pain. The moment when someone eyes' glazes over I know I've lost them.

I'll have a read of your analysis of the NP and get back to you.


Cool, that would be great.

Last night:
Him: So then are these subjects or objects? *points to list of singular pronouns*
Me: They're pronouns... T___T
Him: o.O whaaaa?

It is true that there are multiple ways. My advise is to follow the K.I.S.S. principle (Keep It Simple Stupid). When I get time tonight (or over the weekend - Saturday is upon us ) I will explain one way determiners work. I generally advise people to pick one way of expressing something and getting comfortable with that before trying to learn every single other way. The way that Maori grammar works is that you may end up discovering other methods without even realising it anyway.


Yeah, I had to inform my friend to just give it to me one way so I can learn it this way first without confusing my poor brain, but I have taken note of the alternative ways for future reference. I suppose I can relate it to Japanese, English, Swedish and just about every other language in that there is always more than one way to express the same thing :)

Does your hoa tane know any of his genealogy? A good exercise to put students through is to construct what is called a pepeha or whakapapa (ko mea te maunga etc) as that drills in definite NPs and how the predicate works (there is method to this madness heh!).


No idea. Could you explain a bit more? :)'

You're based in Australia too now as well? I'm more than happy to chat with you and your hoa tane over messenger to help practice with written Maori too and to answer questions live as well. PM me and let me know if you think your hoa tane (and yourself if you wanted to learn even if out of pure linguistic interest) would be interested in this.


"Australia, Tasmania, Palmerston North" -- No, its just as a joke seeings there is a handful of people even here on the worldly unilang who think Tasmania is part of New Zealand, so, I'm still in New Zealand. I might change it back to avoid confusion :) I will PM you later once I've had a chance to talk to him :)

Thanks for all the help :D

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Ariki
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Re: Kaua e mataku! Don't be afraid!

Postby Ariki » 2010-09-21, 0:44

Kia Ora Mr. Hashimoto/Hashimoto,

Apologies for not posting this on the weekend.

Ok with your first PDF document you uploaded. Please bear with me as I can't use macrons on this computer at the moment. My aim is to make this as light and easy as possible to go through and if your boyfriend or yourself has more techincal questions you know where to contact me :yep:

The first sentence you gave He nga pukapuka tawhito era.

The VSO word order is for verb phrases. The above example is a noun phrase so the example shouldn't be included in the first pdf.

I see you've listed he as a verb for 'is' in Maori. I understand the 'why' you've done that however it is not a verbal particle. He is actually a determiner, its the indefinite determiner so there is no need for nga to indicate plural after he. He pukapuka tawhito era is perfectly acceptable (in fact, it really is the only way to structure the sentence).

With your second example, you need to mark the object of the sentence - the thing being affected. The object markers in Maori are i and ki. Kei te kai ahau I te paraoa. Without it you are saying I am the bread eating.

Your third example hmmm.

I hoko ia waka kahurangi tenei.

It should be structured the same way as your previous example (including the object marker). It is better (and correctly) expressed as - I hoko ia i tenei waka kahurangi.

I've quickly read the second pdf and will respond to that later. But I thought I would start with the first.
Linguicide IS genocide. :)

He ingoa ōpaki a Riki; he ingoa ōkawa a Ariki.

Riki is an informal name; Ariki is a formal name.

User avatar
Ariki
Posts: 2410
Joined: 2004-10-01, 14:53
Real Name: Tāne
Gender: male
Country: NZ New Zealand (New Zealand / Aotearoa)

Re: Kaua e mataku! Don't be afraid!

Postby Ariki » 2010-09-21, 0:52

hashi wrote:
I feel your pain. The moment when someone eyes' glazes over I know I've lost them.

I'll have a read of your analysis of the NP and get back to you.


Cool, that would be great.

Last night:
Him: So then are these subjects or objects? *points to list of singular pronouns*
Me: They're pronouns... T___T
Him: o.O whaaaa?

It is true that there are multiple ways. My advise is to follow the K.I.S.S. principle (Keep It Simple Stupid). When I get time tonight (or over the weekend - Saturday is upon us ) I will explain one way determiners work. I generally advise people to pick one way of expressing something and getting comfortable with that before trying to learn every single other way. The way that Maori grammar works is that you may end up discovering other methods without even realising it anyway.


Yeah, I had to inform my friend to just give it to me one way so I can learn it this way first without confusing my poor brain, but I have taken note of the alternative ways for future reference. I suppose I can relate it to Japanese, English, Swedish and just about every other language in that there is always more than one way to express the same thing :)

Does your hoa tane know any of his genealogy? A good exercise to put students through is to construct what is called a pepeha or whakapapa (ko mea te maunga etc) as that drills in definite NPs and how the predicate works (there is method to this madness heh!).


No idea. Could you explain a bit more? :)'

You're based in Australia too now as well? I'm more than happy to chat with you and your hoa tane over messenger to help practice with written Maori too and to answer questions live as well. PM me and let me know if you think your hoa tane (and yourself if you wanted to learn even if out of pure linguistic interest) would be interested in this.


"Australia, Tasmania, Palmerston North" -- No, its just as a joke seeings there is a handful of people even here on the worldly unilang who think Tasmania is part of New Zealand, so, I'm still in New Zealand. I might change it back to avoid confusion :) I will PM you later once I've had a chance to talk to him :)

Thanks for all the help :D


Well, before I go further into whakapapa, send your tane to this site - http://www.maori.org.nz/tikanga/default ... &parent=71

It'll give him a good overview of what it is about.
Linguicide IS genocide. :)

He ingoa ōpaki a Riki; he ingoa ōkawa a Ariki.

Riki is an informal name; Ariki is a formal name.


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