Creating sentences in old norse

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Spitfire
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Creating sentences in old norse

Postby Spitfire » 2021-06-03, 18:30

Hi,
I have recently started trying to learn old norse with a view to understanding it more as well as for reenactment and have been trying to create sentences we can use within the group.
One we were playing around with was to ask someone for something ie to hold/ borrow an item like an axe.
I have tried a translation but am unsure if I have got it right or not.
Would anyone be able to let me know if my translation is correct or not please?
The sentence was :
May I hold your axe?
Má ek holda ox pín?
Does this seem right as I have had problems with the whole nominative, accusative, genitive, dative issue.
Just want to see if I am on the right track with my translation and understanding of this language.
Thanks in advance for any help.

Linguaphile
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Joined:2016-09-17, 5:06

Re: Creating sentences in old norse

Postby Linguaphile » 2021-06-03, 23:10

Spitfire wrote:The sentence was :
May I hold your axe?
Má ek holda ox pín?

Má ek halda øxina þína?
But I am really not sure, mine almost certainly has errors too. I'm definitely not an expert.
For sure you need to distinguish between the letter p and the letter þ. If you're unable to type it, use "th" instead, or just copy-and-paste it from somewhere where it is already typed, like this post.

Spitfire
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Re: Creating sentences in old norse

Postby Spitfire » 2021-06-03, 23:35

Thanks.
I have just found the virtual keyboard and no feel like a right numpty! :ohwell:
Má ek halda øxina þína?
With that sentence could you explain why it is øxina and not øx? I assume this is part of the whole nom, acc, gen and dat thing, which I am still trying to get used to.
I think I am right that
Ek is nom
øxina is acc
Halda is gen.
Thanks

Linguaphile
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Joined:2016-09-17, 5:06

Re: Creating sentences in old norse

Postby Linguaphile » 2021-06-03, 23:46

Spitfire wrote:Thanks.
I have just found the virtual keyboard and no feel like a right numpty! :ohwell:
Má ek halda øxina þína?
With that sentence could you explain why it is øxina and not øx? I assume this is part of the whole nom, acc, gen and dat thing, which I am still trying to get used to.
I think I am right that
Ek is nom
øxina is acc
Halda is gen.
Thanks

Ek is nominative, øxina is accusative.
Halda is a verb and the case distinctions (nominative/genitive/accusative/dative) don't apply to verbs.

Spitfire
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Re: Creating sentences in old norse

Postby Spitfire » 2021-06-03, 23:49

Thanks very much for that, finally got it I think.
Now for verbs!
Cheers.

Spitfire
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Re: Creating sentences in old norse

Postby Spitfire » 2021-06-26, 11:44

Hi again.
Been watching Jackson Crawford on you tube regarding old norse and a particular point confused me.
In his video explaining how to say I love you he says it is spoken as ek ann þér.
However what confused me is that the structure of the sentence as I understood it was that I (subject) and you (object). Therefore shouldn't that make it ek ann þik?
If not, and I accept I'm am wrong, why?
It is this that confuses me as þér is the dative for you whereas þik is the accusative for you which I understood you would use in a sentence where 'you' was the object.
Hope this makes sense. Thanks.

Linguaphile
Posts:5358
Joined:2016-09-17, 5:06

Re: Creating sentences in old norse

Postby Linguaphile » 2021-06-26, 14:52

Spitfire wrote:Hi again.
Been watching Jackson Crawford on you tube regarding old norse and a particular point confused me.
In his video explaining how to say I love you he says it is spoken as ek ann þér.
However what confused me is that the structure of the sentence as I understood it was that I (subject) and you (object). Therefore shouldn't that make it ek ann þik?
If not, and I accept I'm am wrong, why?
It is this that confuses me as þér is the dative for you whereas þik is the accusative for you which I understood you would use in a sentence where 'you' was the object.
Hope this makes sense. Thanks.

You'll basically just have to think of it as an idiomatic expression that isn't an exact, word-for-word translation for the expression in English. The verb unna (from which ann comes) has come to mean "to love", but it requires the use of the dative case. This is because the original meaning of unna was "to bestow" or "to grant". (It kept that meaning in addition to the meaning of "to love").
So when someone says "ek ann þér" they are actually saying "I bestow upon you" or "I grant to you" and it's understood that this actually means "I bestow love upon you", "I grant love to you".

ek I
ann grant, bestow (1st person singular of unna)
þér upon you, to you (dative of þú)

This meaning of "to you" or "upon you" requires the dative case, not accusative.

If you want to avoid this you can also say ek elska þik for "I love you" using the verb elska, which works just the way you expected it to, using the verb elska "to love" and the accusative case.

ek I
elska love (1st person singular of elska)
þik you [as a direct object] (accusative of þú)

edit: corrected a typo
Last edited by Linguaphile on 2021-06-26, 17:30, edited 1 time in total.

Spitfire
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Re: Creating sentences in old norse

Postby Spitfire » 2021-06-26, 16:22

That makes so much more sense thanks.
Its one of the things that I'm having trouble understanding as I look at things and think that must be right and then find I'm not.
Without being able to ask another person whether I'm right or not it means I could go a long way thinking a way of structuring a sentence for example is right and learn bad habits.
Thanks so much again for your help.

cweb255
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Re: Creating sentences in old norse

Postby cweb255 » 2021-08-05, 4:10

Spitfire wrote:That makes so much more sense thanks.
Its one of the things that I'm having trouble understanding as I look at things and think that must be right and then find I'm not.
Without being able to ask another person whether I'm right or not it means I could go a long way thinking a way of structuring a sentence for example is right and learn bad habits.
Thanks so much again for your help.


The real key is to not think about translating English words to Norse words, but English *ideas* to Norse ideas. This is true not just for Norse, but all languages, which aren't just a series of word-to-word correspondences. It can be difficult to think this way if you've never learned another language before, as those who speak their own language tend not to analyze it too deeply, but you'll find the same weirdness is English, too.

Speaking of English, for nom/gen/acc/dat, it might be helpful to think in English pronouns. The nom/gen/acc corresponds exactly with the English I/me/my or he/his/him or who/whose/whom. Dative is the indirect object, which doesn't have any surviving forms in English. It all has to do with substantives.

Verbs are different. They conjugate according to person (I love, you love, he/she loves), number (I love v. we love; he/she loves v. they love), tense (I love, I loved, I will love), voice (I love, I am loved), mood (I was king v. if I were king v. to be king v. be a king!).

Hope this helps!


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